Attn: All Pro-Lifers!

SullivanZ

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Lord Herdsetk

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Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with abortion. Soooo... getting back on topic...

I also find it odd how no one has actually been able to provide one justification for being "pro-life" based off of the Bible. Instead, I am asked questions and not given any answers. laugh out loud

Well neither did your message about God commanding Abraham to kill Isaac = abortion being supported, but I wanted to address the context of God saying that because I'm sure someone would read this topic later and misread it as a valid point.
 
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SullivanZ

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Well, here are a few more verses which may be a bit problematic for the pro-lifers...

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his

throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and
all the firstborn of cattle." (Exodus 12:29)

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls
who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
(Moses - Numbers 31:17)

"And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his
sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly
destoyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city
we left none to remain:" (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)

"And the LORD said unto me, 'Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all
his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as
thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon'.......
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon,
utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
(Deuteronomy 3:2-6)

"This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, and
utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....'
And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
(1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that
Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick........ And it came to
pass on the seventh day, that the child died........." (2 Samuel 12:15-18)

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the
way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him,
and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of
the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare
forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-24)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be
dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and
their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men to
pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye
shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that
they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with
cities....... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts....."
(Isaiah 14:21-22)

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have
mercy, but destroy them." (Jeremiah 13:14)

"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)

"And the Lord said unto him,....... And to the others he said in mine hearing,
Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither
have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children,
and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin
at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the
house." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that
taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:8-9)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled
against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be
dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)

"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have
rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will
be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and
everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open
their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women."
(2 Kings 15:16)
 
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Yarddog

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Conquer of Canaan. The slaughter of the many Ites, not limited to the Midianites and Amalekites, to name a few.
The killing of people that

Psalm 137: 9.

I'm sure there's more, but that is more than sufficient to the point.

And, dear friend, how do I "not understand" the Old Testament? :/ I can clearly reference numerous instances which CLEARLY endorse the wholesale slaugher of innocent babies and infants. This does not mean I don't understand it. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in understanding, seeing as how you so brazenly write off those of show from scripture that God is pro-infant death.
I asked you: "Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply."

You have not done anything other than mention a few of the people which God ordered the Israelites to kill all and given one verse. You have shown no understanding as of yet.
Besides, we all know infants go straight to heaven anyway.
I certainly hope that they do, but does that justify the death of infants and sin of those doing the killing.

Does Jesus going straight to heaven justify those who killed him?
 
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Yarddog

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Well, here are a few more verses which may be a bit problematic for the pro-lifers...
They are not problematic for me, I understand why God told them to do it. Do you?

Does God telling the Israelites to kill the Medianites justify Al Qaeda for killing the 3000 people on 9/11?
 
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SullivanZ

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I asked you: "Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply."

lol

See above verses.^

You have not done anything other than mention a few of the people which God ordered the Israelites to kill all and given one verse. You have shown no understanding as of yet.

I don't have to "prove" anything to you. I began the first post with a QUESTION, implying the onus is on you, not me. However, I was gracious enough to give you a whole truckload of verses to play with up there. ^ See above.

I certainly hope that they do, but does that justify the death of infants and sin of those doing the killing.

That is the question, isn't it? "Does the end justify the means?" Although they would possibly disagree with this instance, we both know MOST Christians would be all-too quick to give us a resounding 'Yes'.

Does Jesus going straight to heaven justify those who killed him?

Define "straight to heaven"...? Actually, you know what? Don't bother - it is (again) entirely sidetracking the issue at hand here (out of refusal - or inability perhaps - to answer the original question).

It's fine if you cannot argue that abortion is wrong from the Old Testament. Neither can I.

It doesn't change how I personally feel about it, however.

But let's not try and use the Bible to suit our own religious or political agendas and beliefs, shall we?
 
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Lord Herdsetk

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You copied those from google eh?

I'll try to go down the list the best I can.

Exodus 12:29 - God killed the firstborn. The Israelites did not go around killing the first born of whomever did not have the mark above the door (how would they know who the firstborn is in every house hold?). Firstborns could have died from natural causes, God naturally causing them to die

Numbers 31:17 - Seems like Israel was doing this so they could reproduce. They needed to grow as a nation. I personally have suspicions about whether or not God ordered this, but assuming that he did, Israel killed everyone (born and unborn) except for virgin females.

Deuteronomy 2: 33-34 - I think you'd be better off arguing God commanding genocide than abortion with this verse. Everyone died. Everyone, everything. Why? I can't really answer you. I mean there's really nothing I can say.

Deuteronomy 3:2-6 - same as above

1 Samuel 15:3,7-8 - same as above

2 Samuel 12:15-18 - another example of God personally taking a child's life. How is this in ANY way related to abortion?

2 Kings 2:23-24 - same as above. I sometimes wonder if these stories weren't told to younger generations to express the importance of following God and not making fun of your elders. That is to say, its not abortion or pro-life related.

Isaiah 13:15-18 - prophecy of things that are going to happen? I'd have to go back and read the story of what was going on at that time but I don't see anything related to pro-choice or pro-life......unless you mean you have the choice to repent to God or not...

Isaiah 14:21-22 - same as above, I'd need to read the story of what was going on

Jeremiah 13:14 - same as above, but I don't see anything related to pro life or pro choice

Dude did you actually read these or did you copy and paste? Most of these seem to be events that were happening in the Bible or prophecies of things to come if someone didn't repent.
 
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SullivanZ

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They are not problematic for me, I understand why God told them to do it. Do you?

Does God telling the Israelites to kill the Medianites justify Al Qaeda for killing the 3000 people on 9/11?

In the eyes of a Muslim (or any other crazy religious fanatic, including Christians) the answer is a clear: YES.
 
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SullivanZ

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You copied those from google eh?

I'll try to go down the list the best I can.

Exodus 12:29 - God killed the firstborn. The Israelites did not go around killing the first born of whomever did not have the mark above the door (how would they know who the firstborn is in every house hold?). Firstborns could have died from natural causes, God naturally causing them to die

The New Testament says the "Destroyer" did it.

Numbers 31:17 - Seems like Israel was doing this so they could reproduce. They needed to grow as a nation. I personally have suspicions about whether or not God ordered this, but assuming that he did, Israel killed everyone (born and unborn) except for virgin females.

Gotta love that crazy ol' Moses, huh? He's so crazay. :)

Deuteronomy 2: 33-34 - I think you'd be better off arguing God commanding genocide than abortion with this verse. Everyone died. Everyone, everything. Why? I can't really answer you. I mean there's really nothing I can say.

It does not detract from the idea that God is (apparently) pro-infant death, though. So the point stands.

Deuteronomy 3:2-6 - same as above

1 Samuel 15:3,7-8 - same as above

2 Samuel 12:15-18 - another example of God personally taking a child's life. How is this in ANY way related to abortion?

God is not against infant death. Abortion is infant death (is it not?) I'm not making the fallacious argument that a fetus or embryo is NOT a person, unlike most. I don't doubt that it is. Yet these verses clearly advocate infant death.

2 Kings 2:23-24 - same as above. I sometimes wonder if these stories weren't told to younger generations to express the importance of following God and not making fun of your elders. That is to say, its not abortion or pro-life related.

So, God will kill you if you make fun of your elders then? :confused:

Isaiah 13:15-18 - prophecy of things that are going to happen? I'd have to go back and read the story of what was going on at that time but I don't see anything related to pro-choice or pro-life......unless you mean you have the choice to repent to God or not...

Infant. Death.

Isaiah 14:21-22 - same as above, I'd need to read the story of what was going on

Jeremiah 13:14 - same as above, but I don't see anything related to pro life or pro choice

Dude did you actually read these or did you copy and paste? Most of these seem to be events that were happening in the Bible or prophecies of things to come if someone didn't repent.

Infant death is the name of the game in 90% of those verses. Do you not believe abortion is infant death? I do.
 
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Yarddog

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Define "straight to heaven"...? Actually, you know what? Don't bother - it is (again) entirely sidetracking the issue at hand here (out of refusal - or inability perhaps - to answer the original question).

It's fine if you cannot argue that abortion is wrong from the Old Testament. Neither can I.
Thanks, I'm glad to see that you admit that abortion cannot be supported by the OT.
It doesn't change how I personally feel about it, however.
How you feel about is your right. I don't speak against that, only against a person misusing scripture to support it.
But let's not try and use the Bible to suit our own religious or political agendas and beliefs, shall we?
I didn't, you did.
 
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Yarddog

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Infant death is the name of the game in 90% of those verses. Do you not believe abortion is infant death? I do.
You still haven't shown that you understand "why" God told the Israelites to kill all the Medianites or others in the scriptures.

If you try and use those verses to support abortion, then you must also use those verses to support of murder.
 
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SullivanZ

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Thanks, I'm glad to see that you admit that abortion cannot be supported by the OT.

No problem. Psalm 137:9 is my favorite.

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his
throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and

all the firstborn of cattle." (Exodus 12:29)

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls
who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
(Moses - Numbers 31:17)

"And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his
sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly
destoyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city
we left none to remain:" (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)

"And the LORD said unto me, 'Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all
his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as
thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon'.......
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon,
utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
(Deuteronomy 3:2-6)

"This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, and
utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....'
And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
(1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that
Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick........ And it came to
pass on the seventh day, that the child died........." (2 Samuel 12:15-18)

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the
way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him,
and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of
the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare
forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-24)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be
dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and
their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men to
pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye
shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that
they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with
cities....... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts....."
(Isaiah 14:21-22)

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have
mercy, but destroy them." (Jeremiah 13:14)

"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)

"And the Lord said unto him,....... And to the others he said in mine hearing,
Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither
have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children,
and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin
at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the
house." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that
taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:8-9)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled
against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be
dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)

"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have
rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will
be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and
everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open
their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women."
(2 Kings 15:16)
 
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SullivanZ

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You still haven't shown that you understand "why" God told the Israelites to kill all the Medianites or others in the scriptures.

If you try and use those verses to support abortion, then you must also use those verses to support of murder.

And well you could!

Abortion IS 'infant murder' is it not???

If killing a baby is wrong, surely killing a grown (sinful) adult is wrong too!

I don't see how one is good and the other not.

But (thankfully) we have laws outlawing murder where I live! :)
 
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Lord Herdsetk

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Yes God will kill you if you make fun of your elders or disagree with people online. So I'd watch out.

Sullivan, I just don't see how I can make an argument with you if you equate abortion and pro-life/pro-choice to death. There's a huge difference. First, we'd have to settle on what abortion means.

Abortion -Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death. An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species.

Or to simplify, I believe abortion is purposefully killing a baby before it is born. Period. Natural abortions(as in you did not do anything intentionally to kill the baby, the woman's body or the baby's body just fails to support him/her)....well you can't really do anything about that.

Now lets look at genocide, because a lot of the verses you listed had more to do with that than abortion

Genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
or
Genocide - Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
 
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Yarddog

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No problem. Psalm 137:9 is my favorite.
When are you going to explain "why" God did these things so that we can see how you can support abortion through scripture. Cutting and pasting is simple. Most all grade school kids can do that these days. Explain scripture.
 
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SullivanZ

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Yes God will kill you if you make fun of your elders or disagree with people online. So I'd watch out.

Sullivan, I just don't see how I can make an argument with you if you equate abortion and pro-life/pro-choice to death. There's a huge difference. First, we'd have to settle on what abortion means.

Abortion -Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death. An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species.

Or to simplify, I believe abortion is purposefully killing a baby before it is born. Period. Natural abortions(as in you did not do anything intentionally to kill the baby, the woman's body or the baby's body just fails to support him/her)....well you can't really do anything about that.

Now lets look at genocide, because a lot of the verses you listed had more to do with that than abortion

Genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
or
Genocide - Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Uh... so you think genocide is okay while abortion ISN'T?

Your logic is astounding.
 
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SullivanZ

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When are you going to explain "why" God did these things so that we can see how you can support abortion through scripture. Cutting and pasting is simple. Most all grade school kids can do that these days. Explain scripture.

See, I'm supposed to be a bible scholar now... Mmm, 'fraid not.

My education is not in biblical scholary. So perhaps you can enlighten me, teach. I don't rely on the Bible itself to be my "moral" compass.

(If I did, I would be in trouble...)

I see murder, abortion, genocide, whatever as wrong intrisically, not because I read about it in a list of dos and don'ts.
 
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Yarddog

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And well you could!
I can't but many crazy religious fanaticals do.
Abortion IS 'infant murder' is it not???
I would say that it would fit for the doctor in most cases.
If killing a baby is wrong, surely killing a grown (sinful) adult is wrong too!
Thou shalt not kill.
I don't see how one is good and the other not.
Which is good? You called abortion murder and killing an adult wrong. Neither is good.
But (thankfully) we have laws outlawing murder where I live! :)
Those laws won't help come judgment.
 
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Yarddog

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See, I'm supposed to be a bible scholar now... Mmm, 'fraid not.
I knew that you weren't a biblical scholar when you tried to justify abortion using the OT.
My education is not in biblical scholary. So perhaps you can enlighten me, teach. I don't rely on the Bible itself to be my "moral" compass.
You don't have to be a scholar to read scripture. If you read it, at least you would know not to use it as you did.
(If I did, I would be in trouble...)
We all fall short, thank God for the cross.:)
I see murder, abortion, genocide, whatever as wrong intrisically, not because I read about it in a list of dos and don'ts.
Allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us in right and wrong, is far more important than a list of do's and don'ts. Much of the OT scripture was revelation about what was to come.(Jesus)

We are alive in grace and we need to show mercy in order to receive mercy. Loving a child is not killing it before it has a chance.
 
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