Isaiah 14 and the "Morning Star"

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Hello everyone. This is my first actual post but I have been surfing around for a while just enjoying the different topics and am (to be honest) a little overwhelmed by what I have read. I have spent that last 10 years trying to excite my friends about the bible and encourage theological discussions just to sharpen each other and noone seems interested, almost like they don't care. Then I find this place... WOW! I plan on "gleaning" as much from you all as you will let me (Ruth 2:2) Hope you don't mind!:rolleyes:
My question is this. A friend of mine and I are doing a small study on Matthew. He does not have a deep understanding of scripture so we are just slowly hitting the main ideas. While in chapter 4 the question of who Satan really is came up. I began listing some verses that I knew and Isaiah 14:12-18 (or so) was one of my first. I had been told and/or was under the impression that Lucifer in verse 12, though directly referring to the king of Babylon (v. 4), also applied to Satan. I thought that the verse,
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend into heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God;"
was just as applicable to Satan as it was to this King. I was taught the whole section (12-18 or so) applied to him. Yet while I was doing my study I noticed that in my bible dictionary this verse wasn't even listed as a reference. Confused, I looked it up in a different dictionary that I have on my computer and then in a commentary. None of them were mentioning Isa. 14. Then I read in the notes in my bible that the name, "Lucifer", was translated as such in the Latin Vulgate and the original phrase was "morning star". I looked up lucifer in a concordance and found that Isa 14:12 is the ONLY location in the bible that it is found (KJV). The phrase "morning star" is only used 3 more times in the NIV (twice in KJV), once in 2 Pet 1:19, and twice in Revelation (2:28, 22:16), none of them referring to Satan.
So can we "confidently" say this passage is referring to satan as well as to the King of Babylon? I am aware of a similar situation in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and in that example it (in my opinion) must be someone other than the King of Tyre.
"you were in Eden, the garden of God... you were annointed as a guardian cherub" etc.

I just wanted to get some feed back and see what anyone else thought. Thanks for your help...
 
Hello Wonder:

Thank you for your reply. I was getting worried there for a bit. I agree that Jesus stated that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies (Jn 8:44) but surely you are not claiming that he was created thus. How could God create satan as a liar and a murderer and then condemn him for it. You would also be making that claim that God created evil would you not? Though you do bring up a very interesting (and difficult) point. I had not thought of your verse when I was doing the study. I am not sure how the two passages(Jn and Ezek) work together. Any more thoughts?
 
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God did create evil....He created it when He created good.
Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I am not sure how all things work together either...but I know that He controls all things...therefore nothing but good can come from it.
In His Love
 
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Isa 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 .. In my opinion does not speak of Satan.
Satan is referred to by the Messiah, Jesus, as a liar and murderer from the beginning. Unlike the beginnings of Lucifer.
Make it a good one and stay in Him.
Maybe Jesus meant from our beginning, ie Satan was a liar starting from Genesis, but not from his beginning, which may have been before Genesis.  So he was created good but turned evil, and was therefore evil at the beginning of our universe/planet.
 
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I try not to read into the Scriptures..The Messiah said from the beginning...thats how I read it. I think if He meant something further He would have stated it. It seems as when He decribed Lucifer, to me, to be at His throne...would be before the fall. So I assume when He decribed Satan...it was the same. Before the fall. When the Messiah states that Satan was a liar from the beginning...I think it was the beginning...before the fall. Thats the way I read it.
 
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Hi,
I think that you make the CORRECT observation. There are many verses of scripture to 'eat' on this! see Matt. 4. And Eze. 28 you say? We know that the Prince of Tyrus was not 'perfect in the day that he was created'! And he was NOT an 'covering cherub'? Hardly! This was an EXAULTED heavenly position over the Mercy seat in Gods Throne. (Sanctuary)

And what did Christ's Word protray Peter as an example? "Get behind me 's'atan".

In Rev. 12 you can find this hombre with the 'fallen' star's & with several names so as we can find the location of some scripture verses of his evil. Serpent is one name, and we know that satan was the one who did his evil work through the Eden serpent.

If you are a King James sort of guy? Check Gen. 4:3-7. In verse 7 is a BUNDLE of information! First off Cain had been saved by FAITH in the Lamb offering up until now! And we know that in the GARDEN was the serpent, devil, fallen Lucifer, satan. Here we can read between the lines. Cain was a mature farmer. Never was there a record of his not offering his CONDITIONAL SACRIFICE, until now. Then he made the OPEN SIN MATURE mistake of dis/obedience.

Yet still Christ said to him.. "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Of course he would have been! But NOTICE who was there with Christ & Cain, just waiting for the pouncing upon his victim?? It says: "... and if not SIN lieth at the door. (remember that this was a face to face meeting with Christ & he was making an Mature decision)
AND UNTO THEE SHALL BE HIS DESIRE, AND THOU SHALT RULE OVER HIM."

Once we see a man of maturity pass a certain point in their Christian growth, a CHARACTER has been established one way of the other. Either for Christ or satan.---P/N/B/


*****
Originally posted by T-roi
Hello everyone. This is my first actual post but I have been surfing around for a while just enjoying the different topics and am (to be honest) a little overwhelmed by what I have read. I have spent that last 10 years trying to excite my friends about the bible and encourage theological discussions just to sharpen each other and noone seems interested, almost like they don't care. Then I find this place... WOW! I plan on "gleaning" as much from you all as you will let me (Ruth 2:2) Hope you don't mind!:rolleyes:
My question is this. A friend of mine and I are doing a small study on Matthew. He does not have a deep understanding of scripture so we are just slowly hitting the main ideas. While in chapter 4 the question of who Satan really is came up. I began listing some verses that I knew and Isaiah 14:12-18 (or so) was one of my first. I had been told and/or was under the impression that Lucifer in verse 12, though directly referring to the king of Babylon (v. 4), also applied to Satan. I thought that the verse,
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend into heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God;"
was just as applicable to Satan as it was to this King. I was taught the whole section (12-18 or so) applied to him. Yet while I was doing my study I noticed that in my bible dictionary this verse wasn't even listed as a reference. Confused, I looked it up in a different dictionary that I have on my computer and then in a commentary. None of them were mentioning Isa. 14. Then I read in the notes in my bible that the name, "Lucifer", was translated as such in the Latin Vulgate and the original phrase was "morning star". I looked up lucifer in a concordance and found that Isa 14:12 is the ONLY location in the bible that it is found (KJV). The phrase "morning star" is only used 3 more times in the NIV (twice in KJV), once in 2 Pet 1:19, and twice in Revelation (2:28, 22:16), none of them referring to Satan.
So can we "confidently" say this passage is referring to satan as well as to the King of Babylon? I am aware of a similar situation in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and in that example it (in my opinion) must be someone other than the King of Tyre.
"you were in Eden, the garden of God... you were annointed as a guardian cherub" etc.

I just wanted to get some feed back and see what anyone else thought. Thanks for your help...
 
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Pastor N.B.  Thanks for the reply. A question if you don't mind. In an attempt to reply to Wonder's statement...

 
God did create evil....He created it when He created good.

I was hoping to find a verse that spoke of Satan and his angels as having "fallen". If they are called fallen then that, by the very use of the word, suggest a previous state which was higher than their present... (in other words, they are not now as they were created... or they were not created as they are in their present state). Yet I could not find anything. I have heard people speak of "Satan and his fallen angels" but all I could come up with is what you cited, Rev 12 where he "swept away a third of the stars of heaven" but that verse is vague at best and offered me little concrete support.

I also simply do not buy into the notion that God created evil. I do not know hebrew so in dealing with Wonder's claim, made from Isa. 45:7, I turned to other translations. The NIV translates it as "create disaster", NASB has "creating calamity", and even the NKJV has "create calamity" so in my opinion this is clearly not evil in the sense of

Moral badness, or the deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by conscience, or by the will of the Supreme Being, or by the principles of a lawful human authority; disposition to do wrong; moral offence; wickedness; depravity. (emphasis mine) Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

In this passage God seems to be speaking of things which happen that we would consider bad or catastropic in our lives. Disasters, accidents, etc. It is set opposite of peace in the KJV (prosperity in NIV, well-being NASB). If if was speaking of evil in the sense we are using it in would it not be opposite holiness, righteousness, godliness, etc? This is not the nature, tendency, or "disposition" of someone to sin (which is what evil is... sin). I do not believe that Satan was created with a natural disposition to sin. He was created (in my humble, and at the moment, unproven opinion :D ) and chose to sin.

I must confess, to me this is not the most important of topics. I hate studying anything having to do with satan or angels because I think it is nearly irrelevant. The bible spends little time on either topic and I do not believe it was an over sight on God's part. There is so much to learn about God and his incredible act of love demonstrated on the cross but I hate finding out that I have taught someone, or been taught something that is clearly wrong so I poke and prod and try to question everything. This, at the moment, is something that gave way to my push and I felt obliged to pursue it a bit.

Again thanks for your reply. If you (or anyone else for that matter) has any comments on God creating evil or, Satan being a "fallen" creature, or whether Satan is being referred to in Isa 14 or Ezek 28 please pass them on. I love discussing the bible with brothers and sisters... even on topics with such little relevance.

Yours in Christ,
 
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Hi,
the subject is a good one to study! And you ARE CORRECT, that GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL. Eze. 28 states LUCIFER was created PERFECT. And that Adam & Eve were also created VERY GOOD! (PERFECT) And US'INs also, as in ROM. 8:1!! yet, this was & IS ONLY a STARTING POINT! God gave us LIBERTY, FREE CHOICE, AND IT WAS HE THAT TESTED Adam & Eve with a FORBIDDEN tree test. (why?) This TESTING IS ALL THROUGH THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL! It is OUR DECISION to use Christ's PROVISSIONS to DEVELOPE CHARACTER, or go the way of Lucifer & Cain. (if we will) Check the [ETERNAL UNIVERSIAL]] provisions in Phil; 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:0.

ALL of God's creation were without sin by free choice. Until Lucifer proved not to PERFECT HIS CHARACTER further. (see Gen. 4:7 for another's FREE FATAL DECISION) This was [his] DECISON. Not God's fault. And ours today?
----P/N/B/
*****

Originally posted by T-roi
Pastor N.B.  Thanks for the reply. A question if you don't mind. In an attempt to reply to Wonder's statement...

 

I was hoping to find a verse that spoke of Satan and his angels as having "fallen". If they are called fallen then that, by the very use of the word, suggest a previous state which was higher than their present... (in other words, they are not now as they were created... or they were not created as they are in their present state). Yet I could not find anything. I have heard people speak of "Satan and his fallen angels" but all I could come up with is what you cited, Rev 12 where he "swept away a third of the stars of heaven" but that verse is vague at best and offered me little concrete support.

I also simply do not buy into the notion that God created evil. I do not know hebrew so in dealing with Wonder's claim, made from Isa. 45:7, I turned to other translations. The NIV translates it as "create disaster", NASB has "creating calamity", and even the NKJV has "create calamity" so in my opinion this is clearly not evil in the sense of



In this passage God seems to be speaking of things which happen that we would consider bad or catastropic in our lives. Disasters, accidents, etc. It is set opposite of peace in the KJV (prosperity in NIV, well-being NASB). If if was speaking of evil in the sense we are using it in would it not be opposite holiness, righteousness, godliness, etc? This is not the nature, tendency, or "disposition" of someone to sin (which is what evil is... sin). I do not believe that Satan was created with a natural disposition to sin. He was created (in my humble, and at the moment, unproven opinion :D ) and chose to sin.

I must confess, to me this is not the most important of topics. I hate studying anything having to do with satan or angels because I think it is nearly irrelevant. The bible spends little time on either topic and I do not believe it was an over sight on God's part. There is so much to learn about God and his incredible act of love demonstrated on the cross but I hate finding out that I have taught someone, or been taught something that is clearly wrong so I poke and prod and try to question everything. This, at the moment, is something that gave way to my push and I felt obliged to pursue it a bit.

Again thanks for your reply. If you (or anyone else for that matter) has any comments on God creating evil or, Satan being a "fallen" creature, or whether Satan is being referred to in Isa 14 or Ezek 28 please pass them on. I love discussing the bible with brothers and sisters... even on topics with such little relevance.

Yours in Christ,
 
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Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
Hi,
the subject is a good one to study! And you ARE CORRECT, that GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL. ----P/N/B/
*****

Then how do you explain Isaiah 45:7 and the fact that God is the Creator of all things.
 
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Originally posted by JesusServant
Then how do you explain Isaiah 45:7 and the fact that God is the Creator of all things.

***
That is an easy one for me at least?? God was the one that CREATED perfect Lucifer. He was His FIRST of all creation! He was given 'top' honor of ALL angels that were to be created after him! God took the 'credit' for his decision for the created of His to rebel as free moral agents, if they so choose.

THEN:

At this peak of the LOVE OF GOD UPON HIM, he could GO NO FURTHER in honor! And that did not surfice him. And we see what the fruit's of doubt leads to.
see James 1:14-15. Or Isa. 14:12-14. And Eze. 28:15. The [character] of Lucifer God left with himself to DEVELOPE as a free moral agent! The SAME as us at CONVERSION. How much more perfect could we be than Rom. 8:1?
But we too can still FREELY rebell. Is God at fault because He gave us this choice?

It has never been any different! So, God takes the RAP for permitting sin to run its course. He knew before Lucifer was created that the PLAN of salvation, that IS ETERNAL, would need to be BROUGHT FORTH! (not Christ, but the PLAN ITSELF-see Prov. 8:22-24---NO DON'T, SMILE!) If He had never taken the chance for His PROFESSED ones to be anything other than robots, it would prove that He could not have created beings SAFE TO SAVE! Na. 1:9.

Perhaps Rom. 4:17's last part would help some better to understand the Everlasting Gospel & the Everlasting Covenant? (but just the Character developing few perhaps) This should show all HOW WE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR BEING A PARTAKER OF SIN!? see Rev. 18:4. Yet, in JUSTICE, God has ALSO TOLD US WHAT THE END OF LUCIFER WILL BE! Eze. 28:18-19 & Obadiah 15-16 gone ETERNALLY! (us too, if left un/coverted & safe to save) -----P/N/B/
 
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Then how do you explain Isaiah 45:7 and the fact that God is the Creator of all things.

JesusServant, thanks for joining in. I don't know if you have read the earlier posts (if so, bear with me because i'm going to just repeat myself) but I do not believe that the word that the KJV translates as evil in Isa 45:7 means "evil" in the sense we are talking here.

 
The NIV translates it as "create disaster", NASB has "creating calamity", and even the NKJV has "create calamity" so in my opinion this is clearly not evil in the sense of...

&nbsp;"Moral badness, or the deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by conscience, or by the will of the Supreme Being, or by the principles of a lawful human authority; <B>disposition to do wrong</B>; moral offence; wickedness; depravity." (emphasis mine) <I>Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.</I>

In this passage God seems to be speaking of things which happen that we would consider bad or catastropic in our lives. Disasters, accidents, etc. It is set opposite of peace in the KJV (prosperity in NIV, well-being NASB). If if was speaking of evil in the sense we are using it in would it not be opposite holiness, righteousness, godliness, etc? This is not the nature, tendency, or "disposition" of someone to sin (which is what evil is... sin). I do not believe that Satan was created with a natural disposition to sin. He was created (in my humble, and at the moment, unproven opinion <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border=0> ) and chose to sin.

God did not create sin when he created the garden but he did create the opportunity did he not? He made the tree of knowledge of good and evil and, just as importantly, made the law (rule) not to eat of it. By eating of it Adam and Eve sinned (this is the first evil [deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by...the will of the Supreme Being] act of man. He was not created to do such but God did create the opportunity). This is exactly what I think happened to Satan. He was given the ability/opportunity to choose disobedience.

As far as God being the creator of all things... evil and sin do not fall into the category of "creation"&nbsp;do they? Did God create death? famine? disease?&nbsp;Aren't these better labeled as results&nbsp;or symptoms of our fallen&nbsp;condition/state?&nbsp;God&nbsp;didn't "create"death per se, he created&nbsp;a law that said&nbsp;if you sin... you die. We&nbsp;(Adam) chose&nbsp;to sin and, therefore, to die. Are we, then, to point to God and say he "created death" simply because it is a fact of our existence?&nbsp;No it was a consequence of our choosing.&nbsp;I do not believe God created evil, He simply created the "opportunity" for us to choose not be be like Him... Holy. Just as darkness is simply a lack of the presence of light, evil is a lack of the presence of God's holiness.

That is my opinion anyways. Please feel free to poke holes in it. The more you poke the more I learn and the more "holes" in my theology get plugged :)

Pastor N.B. Yes I think Lk 10:18 will work fine (though I'm sure die-hards will argue this fall is simply geographical rather than spiritual but it works for me). One more question though, if you don't mind. Does this verse in Lk have anything to do with Rev. 12:7? Are they the same event or two seperate? I know anything having to do with revelations can rarely be said with absolute confidence but I simply wanted to know your opinion. Thanks again for the verse.

Serving 'til He comes...
 
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Hi,
very good post! (the one that I zapped for your question) People need to [PRINT] it out for further use. Many of the 'sincere' unsaved have these questions. And why not, they are LOOKING at professed Christians as is found in [daily print]?? And this just might be the only way to start an honest search for Christ? The knowing of the why 'professed' Christians are seen as many are. (Christless! Rev. 3:9)

Anyway: The K.J. says Satan was BEHELD by Christ as lightening falling from heaven. So it was that, he (Satan) left rapidly after the battle was finished, the sin against the Holy Ghost.

And in Rev. 12:7-9 it gives this details of the enemy! 'the great dragon', '[was cast out]', 'that old serpent', 'called Satan'. He was 'cast out to earth & he DECEIVETH the [whole world]. And (AND) his angels [WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM]." So when one reads of [any] of these names in the total book? Many times we need to take a closer look, for much of the time it is refering to this [same] evil one! (like the serpent in the garden)

One could write a book on these verses! (smile)
But just one thought on DECEPTION? Rev. speaks of the Great (spiritual apostate woman-church) harlot & Her Daughters. So it seems that the WHOLE WORLD is deceived by the one with MANY Bible names.

Yet, these ones are not the ones that were to be judged FIRST. It was to be the ones that had all of this Virgin Knowledge! (not the deceived ones, but the ones that walked into sin with their eyes wide open) see 1 Peter 4:17-Lev. 16:14 for its time period. But that is of another thread perhaps? Read Matt. 23:15!

But, per/thread subject: Who 'created' these ones'? Christ or Satan, or rather who created their 'little' helpers!? (had you ever thought of satan as a type of creator of 'sin'?
---P/N/B/
**********

Pastor N.B. Yes I think Lk 10:18 will work fine (though I'm sure die-hards will argue this fall is simply geographical rather than spiritual but it works for me). One more question though, if you don't mind. Does this verse in Lk have anything to do with Rev. 12:7? Are they the same event or two seperate? I know anything having to do with revelations can rarely be said with absolute confidence but I simply wanted to know your opinion. Thanks again for the verse.

Serving 'til He comes... [/B][/QUOTE]
 
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JesusServant

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Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
***
That is an easy one for me at least?? God was the one that CREATED perfect Lucifer. He was His FIRST of all creation! He was given 'top' honor of ALL angels that were to be created after him! God took the 'credit' for his decision for the created of His to rebel as free moral agents, if they so choose.

THEN:

At this peak of the LOVE OF GOD UPON HIM, he could GO NO FURTHER in honor! And that did not surfice him. And we see what the fruit's of doubt leads to.
see James 1:14-15. Or Isa. 14:12-14. And Eze. 28:15. The [character] of Lucifer God left with himself to DEVELOPE as a free moral agent! The SAME as us at CONVERSION. How much more perfect could we be than Rom. 8:1?
But we too can still FREELY rebell. Is God at fault because He gave us this choice?

It has never been any different! So, God takes the RAP for permitting sin to run its course. He knew before Lucifer was created that the PLAN of salvation, that IS ETERNAL, would need to be BROUGHT FORTH! (not Christ, but the PLAN ITSELF-see Prov. 8:22-24---NO DON'T, SMILE!) If He had never taken the chance for His PROFESSED ones to be anything other than robots, it would prove that He could not have created beings SAFE TO SAVE! Na. 1:9.

Perhaps Rom. 4:17's last part would help some better to understand the Everlasting Gospel &amp; the Everlasting Covenant? (but just the Character developing few perhaps) This should show all HOW WE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR BEING A PARTAKER OF SIN!? see Rev. 18:4. Yet, in JUSTICE, God has ALSO TOLD US WHAT THE END OF LUCIFER WILL BE! Eze. 28:18-19 &amp; Obadiah 15-16 gone ETERNALLY! (us too, if left un/coverted &amp; safe to save) -----P/N/B/

Okay this is great and all, but doesn't explain away Isaiah 45:7.&nbsp; I have not argued against much of what's here, at least that I could understand of your grammar ;)&nbsp;

I just asked one question, then people assume a thousand other views I MUST have because of the question.&nbsp; Argh!&nbsp; Frustrating to say the least.

Of course God did NOT create satan to be evil, but He DID know previously that satan would become evil.&nbsp; God knows all and knows past, present and future, so He had to know.&nbsp; So creating satan was NOT a mistake.&nbsp; I look at it like this...

If it is 70 degrees and hardly any wind and sunny every single day of your life you will NOT appreciate it.&nbsp; It would be normal and expected.&nbsp; But if you throw in some rainy and/or cold windy days then you THEN appreciate the 70 degree beautiful days.&nbsp; It is the same with evil.&nbsp; God allows evil because without it we could never appreciate good and eventually, like satan, turn to evil without knowing the consequences or even understanding what we were becoming.&nbsp; He is teaching us in this life so that we will trust in Him in the next and therefor will NOT rebel like satan did when given eternal life with Him.&nbsp; This is all pretty straight forward and simple and it is a belief I strongly (and the Bible) hold.

Now, back to Isaiah 45:7 (and this is kind of for T-roi as well).&nbsp; The point isn't about retranslating the words or parsing Greek, Hebrew or Arabic.&nbsp; The point is what it says&nbsp;not whether it's evil/calamity/destruction or not.&nbsp; If God is good then His mere existance would cause evil right?&nbsp; Everything must have an equal opposite.&nbsp; If it did not have an opposite then how does it exist?&nbsp; Our entire universe functions on this basic principle that scientists/physicists claim to have "found" when it was there all along.&nbsp; How could we, God's creation, learn what NOT to be or do without examples?&nbsp; Is satan not the other end of the spectrum from God?&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; Did God create satan evil?&nbsp; Nope.&nbsp; But satan became evil in part because of greed, something he did not understand because there was no example before, he set the bar.&nbsp; So if God created satan and satan is the foundation of evil, then God, by association created evil as well.&nbsp; God did not create evil to trick us or harm us or make our lives miserable, but that we would have a learning point of what NOT to be or do OR possibly, God's mere existance caused evil to exist because of the 'rules of existance' so-to-speak, something we probably won't understand in this lifetime.

Oh and BTW, pastor N.B., satan was first of all creation?&nbsp; If you can show me undeniable proof in scripture that he was first, then I'd appreciate it, but I've never seen it.&nbsp; I believe Christ was first of all creation.&nbsp; Remember, God knows all that was, is and will be.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sure we have choices, that's the only way we'd learn right from wrong, the story of Adam and Eve is a wealth of knowledge about WHY things are the way they are, I believe the story of Adam and Eve is more valuable as symbolism than actuality (not that it didn't really happen that way).
 
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Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
....One could write a book on these verses! (smile)
But just one thought on DECEPTION? Rev. speaks of the Great (spiritual apostate woman-church) harlot &amp; Her Daughters. So it seems that the WHOLE WORLD is deceived by the one with MANY Bible names...

Pastor N.B., what on earth would make you think the symbolic woman in Rev 12 is not ISRAEL!?!?&nbsp; Are you another one of those people who think the catholic church is the great harlot and rev 12 is a church?&nbsp; It's impossible.&nbsp; The symbolical woman in Rev:12 gave birth to Jesus (Israel).&nbsp; I guess I'll have to open up another thread on the truth of Revelation 12.&nbsp; Argh!


But, per/thread subject: Who 'created' these ones'? Christ or Satan, or rather who created their 'little' helpers!? (had you ever thought of satan as a type of creator of 'sin'?
---P/N/B/

Of course not, satan cannot create a molecule of dust.&nbsp; God is the ONLY Creator.&nbsp; Some of satan's jealousy could have stemmed from this jealousy of God.

&nbsp;
 
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Hi,
like I say, does one believe God??? REALLY BELIEVE HIM??? If so, then there [is] absolute PROOF! God said it, and I belive it & that SETTLES IT FOR ME!

And this proof will clear up much 'poor' grammer too? (smile)

Who was Adams first creation? (pro/creation as in the image of God)
What FIRST created son fell?
Who was BEFORE Adams creation???? Who rebelled in heaven? Who would not [except Christ] in heaven? Who would not EXCEPT CHRIST in the Faith sacrifice of the LAMB? Who was it in heaven that first sinned, & God still let him to 'temporarily' let LIVE ON? Who was it on earth that FIRST sinned AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST & became the servant of satan, that also was permitted to temporarily live on? (120 yrs.?) before Seth, the son of God came on the scene.

A lot of questions? Well, here IS THE GODHEADS ANSWER: "IF"? WE do still BELIEVE that the 66 Books are THE WORD OF GOD! And we still believe that the Hosly Ghost inspired the WORD? And that God is.. the same Yesterday, Today & Forever! & That [HE CANNOT LIE!] (oh' by the way, NO, Christ WAS NOT CREATED!!-will catch that at another time! smile)

If one can testify to the above, they are ready to proceed from milk to more substance perhaps?
OK: In Eccl. 1:9-10 & in Eccl. 3:15 God has DECLARED that BEFORE ADAM's FIRST SON REBELLED, SO DID [HIS FIRST] CREATED SON! And for the SAME reasons, [MATURITY against GOD] became the CHARACTER's [[final]] freewill Decision!

(in part & with highlights!--- And with the Rainbow given, & the inspiration also given that 'sin will not arise a SECOND time', these very FEW with others, of these verses are prophetic forwards & BACKWARDS)

"The thing that [HATH BEEN] (Satans created) IT IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE, AND THAT WHICH BE DONE IS THAT WHICH [SHALL BE DONE]: AND THERE IS [NO NEW THING] UNDER THE SUN.


IS THERE [ANYTHING] WHEREOF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE THIS IS NEW? (I am Glad that the Lord did not give us time to garbel this up with Laodicean garbel, before HE ANSWERS HIMSELF) [IT HATH ALREADY BEEN BEFORE US."
And who was BEFORE ADAM??

I can hear some already saying, well? uh? well maybe Lord? but?? Of course I believe you Lord, but maybe you made a mistake??

SO: The Lord repeats Himself again over in chapter 3:15 ibide.
"THAT WHICH HATH BEEN [IS NOW]; (other world's'? tested like the tree in the MIDST of the garden of eden? The LORD SAY'S YES!)
AND THAT WHICH [IS TO BE HATH ALREADY BEEN]; AND [GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST.]"

Do a check? Old & new testaments. The first Virgin denomination was CUT off at Christ's First comming, & so will the last one be! (see Eze. 9) Sodom & Gomorrah repeat! The FALLING AWAY of FOLDS of John 10:16. TEST of 666 was before us, see Ex. 16:4's last part & verse 28 before we, (as they were to) enter their land of CANNAN in verse 35. And the crucifixion of the Master's repeat? see Heb. 6:6! (and on & on it goes, BUT! We are told the ENDING.) ----P/N/B/


***
Originally posted by JesusServant [/i]

(Zapped for question)

Oh and BTW, pastor N.B., satan was first of all creation?&nbsp; If you can show me undeniable proof in scripture that he was first, then I'd appreciate it, but I've never seen it.&nbsp; I believe Christ was first of all creation.&nbsp; Remember, God knows all that was, is and will be.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sure we have choices, that's the only way we'd learn right from wrong, the story of Adam and Eve is a wealth of knowledge about WHY things are the way they are, I believe the story of Adam and Eve is more valuable as symbolism than actuality (not that it didn't really happen that way). [/B][/QUOTE];)
 
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:(Hi forum,
I know that it takes time to mature. And also we 'can' mature in the wrong direction! :cry:

So let me just post an Inspired verse for 'myself', or anyone else that feels that we know it all, perhaps??

1 John 4:6 says: (with emphasis)
"We are of God: [he that is of God heareth us]; he that [is not of God, heareth not us]. Hereby [know we] the Spirit of Truth, and the 's'pirit of error" :clap:
---P/N/B/
 
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I had a nice post typed up and ready to submit but I did something wrong, got an error message, and then it was gone. The whole thing! So I'm going to try this again...

OK, we seem to have two new thoughts going here.

1. Jesus (according to JesusServant) was the first of creation.
I believe Christ was first of all creation.

2. Satan&nbsp;(according to PNB)&nbsp;was the first of creation. (I can't find your quote PNB so correct me if I'm wrong).

Well, I hate to muddy the waters but, truthfully, I can't agree with either completely. As to Jesus being the first of creation this is a very old debate. It is also known as Arianism and was addressed by the church in the first council of Nicea. It was refuted there and laid to rest. Granted, depending on your religios background, the opinion of the catholic church on an issue "settled" over 1500 years ago may not carry much weight so let's go to the bible. The best verse is Jn 1:1. There John, speaking of Jesus, calls him "the word" (logos) and says that "in the beginning...the word was with God and the word was God". Jesus was with God from "the beginning". That leaves no room for his being created. He was always with God. Another good verse is Jn 8:58 where Jesus, summing up a discourse which begun with "I am the light of the world", states "before Abraham was born, I am!" The Jews wanted to stone him for these words because they were extreme blasphemy. Why? Because Jesus was referring back to Ex 3:14 where God gives Moses his name, "ehyeh asher ehyeh" or "I am that I am". This name of God was later to become so revered by the Jews that they would not even say it. It, according to tradition, was only spoken once a year (the Day of Atonement) by the High Priest while he was in the Holy of Holies. Now this wasn't God's intention but it shows how a Jew viewed the name. Jesus, in Jn 8:58, therefore is calling himself nothing short of YahWeh (Jehovah), or simply GOD! This would be a big boast from one who was simply a part of creation but it was not a big boast for Jesus. He is God. (please don't drag me into the trinity though. To be honest, it's simply over my head. Jesus, in my opinion is God. Let me leave it at that) :D

I would guess that you are referring to verses such as Col 1:15, Rom 8:29, and Heb 1:6. It is strange that Christ would be referred to as the "firstborn of creation" if he was not created. This would definitely throw a monkey wrench in my thoughts. My only explanation comes from the context. Col. continues in verse 18,

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the
firstborn from among the deadand again in Rev 1:5,

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the
firstborn from the deadthis term "firstborn" does not refer to his being created but being "born" per se from the tomb and death. He was the first to be raised up from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit though not the last for we will soon follow.

&nbsp;For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.(Rom 8:29)Enough on that. If you disagree JesusServant please share what you have. I would like to hear it.

PNB: as far as Satan being the first of all creation... I have heard that taught and preached since I was a kid but I have never had someone explain where they get that idea clearly enough (or convincingly enough) for me to agree. I'm not saying it is not true, I'm just saying that I do not belive that the bible gives us enough info. to make that claim confidently. If you feel you can please continue and I'll try to keep up (though to be honest your last post PNB has me quite lost. I'll keep at it though). :)

Ps: JesusServant, I do apologize for jumping to conclusions...

I just asked one question, then people assume a thousand other views I MUST have because of the question.

but PNB and I were discussing the origins of Satan and Isa 14 which lead into a discussion of whether Satan was created evil or became so, and if he was created evil then did God in essence create evil itself. So when you asked your very brief question...

&nbsp;
Then how do you explain Isaiah 45:7 and the fact that God is the Creator of all things.

PNB and I both attempted to answer your question in relation to the discussion we were already having. To avoid this, try to give a little more info. in your question and people will be able to focus their comments. I am afraid, after rereading this reply before submitting it, that I may have done it agian. I assumed that you came to your belief that Jesus was the first of creation from the verses that I listed and then tried to address those verses. I never thought that you may have come to that conclusion some other way. If so, again, forgive me and I'll try to stick closer to your comments.

Thank you both for the discussion. Hearing others beliefs challenges me to defend and develop my own better. Let's just remember we're not here to change each other's minds so much as to simply enjoy discussing the Word and cause others to look at something in a new way (we can wrestle with it and [if it is warranted] change our minds later on our own).

yours in Christ,
 
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