Does hell exist?

OldShepherd · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
That's because you are making the same mistake the majority of believers do and that is your interpreting not only this story (which is a parable) with the usual literal hermeneutic. 

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It lacks the comparison, "is like unto. . .." If it is a parable it is the only parable in the entire Bible that identifies two of its characters by name, Lazarus and the very real patriarch Abraham. And finally, it lacks the explanation that Jesus always provided with His parables. Of course, those who teach false doctrine try to explain it away as a parable because it does not fit their false teachings.

As recorded in the Talmud, before Christianity, the Jews believed that the righteous in heaven could see the sinful in hell.

the gates of paradise are fixed over against the gates of hell, so that they can see the righteous in rest, and themselves in distress.

{b} Tzeror Hammor, fol. 125. 3.

drmmjr · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by Hesmyall
I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said. He was saying that there is a place of everlasting torment.

So, you are saying that those who don't believe in Jesus will be in everlasting torment. But in order to be in everlasting torment, they would have to have everlasting life. But a person only gets that if they believe in Jesus.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Too many people want to make hell out to just be a place of seperation from God.

If a person doesn't believe in Jesus, then they will perish. Not just be separated from God, but utterly destroyed.

It is much more than that. In Revelations when it talks about hell and death being cast into the lake of fire I believe that is exactly what will happen. There will be a very real fire in hell for those who end up there or the Bible wouldn't teach it.

If hell is cast into the lake of fire, then there can't be a real fire in hell. Hell is translated from the word "sheol" which means grave. It is derived from the old English word "helan" which means "to cover".

As to the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it's a parable. If it were literal, then Abraham's bosom and hell are within spittin' distance of each other. People in one place can see people in the other. Now, would you want to spend eternity watch people, possibly some of your loved ones, in hell.

OldShepherd · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by drmmjr
People in one place can see people in the other. Now, would you want to spend eternity watch people, possibly some of your loved ones, in hell.

The fallacy of your argument is that God's justice does not depend on what we want or don't want.

drmmjr · Jan 14, 2003

I guess that you are missing the point that I was making. If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken as literal, then people in both "hell" and "Abraham's bosom" would be able to see each other. From the story, they are next door neighbors.

Now, if you were in a nice neighborhood, where there is no sickness, death, or sorrow, would you want to look over and see the neighbors in constant torment.

As I pointed out, the only one's who are going to get eternal life are those who believe in Jesus. Everyone who doesn't believe, will not get eternal life. And what is the opposite of life? Death. So those who don't believe will get eternal death. There will be no eternal torment.

wolfling03 · Jan 14, 2003

I for one must agree with Hesmyall and Oldshepard. Hell is a literal and very real place, spoken about by the Lord quite often. Jesus himself had to descend into hell and take the keys back from the devil. (Review the parable of the strong man) He led the captives free by so doing. Religions thoughout history have tried various means to get around the concept of hell. (How can a just God punish forever.....etc.) but all of it is just wishful human thinking and from it have sprung pseudo christian religions.

drmmjr · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by wolfling03
I for one must agree with Hesmyall and Oldshepard. Hell is a literal and very real place, spoken about by the Lord quite often. Jesus himself had to descend into hell and take the keys back from the devil. (Review the parable of the strong man) He led the captives free by so doing. Religions thoughout history have tried various means to get around the concept of hell. (How can a just God punish forever.....etc.) but all of it is just wishful human thinking and from it have sprung pseudo christian religions.

In refering to the captives:
Ephesian 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Jesus is not leading those who were captive, he has captured the thing that is capable of captivity.

What is the one thing that can make a man captive? Death and the grave. That is the one thing that we have no control of. Oh, we can extend life, but we cannot prevent death.

And as you point out, Jesus even tells us that he has power over death.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

If hell is some never ending place of punishment, then why is it destroyed in the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell give up their dead. If that is the case, then no one is in hell after the judgement. Now, you may be confusing the lake of fire with hell, but that is clearly not the case. They are two seperate things.

HesMyAll · Jan 14, 2003

One day everyone will believe in a very real burning hell and the eternal torment that will go along with it.

Sadly, some will not believe before stepping into eternity but will instead believe a lie and then discover too late that it was not just a story.

drmmjr · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by Hesmyall
One day everyone will believe in a very real burning hell and the eternal torment that will go along with it.

So far, I've only seen you post your remarks, no scripture to back it up. As I said previously, only those who believe in Jesus will be given eternal life. No where in scripture does it say that there will be eternal torment. In order for that to happen, then those being tormented will have to have some form of eternal life.

You can believe that there is some kind of eternal, burning, tormenting, hell, but it is not in scripture. There is not even any mention of eternal soul in scripture either.

Sadly, some will not believe before stepping into eternity but will instead believe a lie and then discover too late that it was not just a story.

And I feel sorry for you too.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

HesMyAll · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by drmmjr
So far, I've only seen you post your remarks, no scripture to back it up. As I said previously, only those who believe in Jesus will be given eternal life. No where in scripture does it say that there will be eternal torment. In order for that to happen, then those being tormented will have to have some form of eternal life.

You can believe that there is some kind of eternal, burning, tormenting, hell, but it is not in scripture. There is not even any mention of eternal soul in scripture either.

And I feel sorry for you too.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. 

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if they foot offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out; it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

From the above scriptures it is pretty clear that there is a real place of eternal torment with a very real fire.  God calls this place hell.  As a matter of fact Jesus spoke far more of hell than He did of heaven.  If it were not a real place He wouldn't have felt the need to warn of so strongly of it.

BTW, I did not say I felt sorry for you.  Where did you get that idea?

drmmjr · Jan 14, 2003

The words of the Master in Mark 9:43-48 are supposed to be one of the strong proofs of the torments of lost souls in hell. The word here translated hell is not hades, meaning the death state, but Gehenna, the name of that valley outside Jerusalem where the carcasses of animals and the refuse of the city were dumped to be consumed by the fires kept continually burning for that purpose, and by the devouring worms.

The word had come to be a synonym for the most ignominious kind of destruction, and this is the sense in which Jesus used it. His language probably being a quotation form Isaiah 66:24. Gehenna is used only twelve times in the Bible. Its other occurrences are Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.

Jesus Himself has furnished us with the interpretation of this passage in the parable of the tares, Matt. 13:24-30, 36-42, 49, 50, and John, in Matt. 3:12 and Luke 3:17 calls the wicked chaff. The unquenchable fire will be just as thorough in its destruction of sinners as it was of the chaff in Matt.3:12. For, true to the old type, Gehenna is not a place of preservation, but of destruction (Matt. 10:28; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). It is not a place of disembodied souls, but a crematory of bodies (Isa. 66:24; Matt. 5:29, 30; 10:28) including feet, hands and eyes (Matt. 18:8, 9; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). There is not the slightest intimation that it is a place of torment, or even of consciousness. God does not torment. He consumes (Heb. 12:29).

As for everlasting torment:

The remaining scriptures on hell are of a different class than the gehenna references. For, whereas they are always translated hell but never imply torment, these do teach torment, but never mention hell. These torment scriptures are found in Rev. 14:11; 10:3, 20; 20:10; 21:8; Matt. 25:41.
Here we have to do with the lake of fire, another symbol for the same thing; i.e., the extinction of the wicked. In contrast with gehenna, it is a place where living things are cast (Rev. 19:20) during their lifetime (cf. Rev. 9:4-6 with 14:9-11). Their torment lies partly in the fact that death is denied them.

But everlasting torment is not everlasting, in these cases. The terms everlasting, forever, forever and ever do not always mean eternity. Forever undoubtedly means simply a lifetime in Ex. 21:6; Deut. 15:17; 1 Sam. 27:12; Neh. 9:5; Eccl. 9:6 and Philemon 15. In Jonah 2:6 it is only three days (Matt. 12:40).
everlasting fire, like that of gehenna, is not an agent of preservation, but of destruction. Witness the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed (Luke 17:29) and turned into ashes (2 Peter 2:6) by eternal fire (Jude 7). The imagery of these passages is certainly not more graphic than that of Isaiah 34:9, 10, yet the smoke of Idumea is not going up today.

The lake of fire is definitely stated to be the second death, Rev. 20:14; 21:8. This it will be for the devil (Rev. 20:10; Heb. 2:14) and for all others who go into it (Rev. 20:15; Psa. 37:20). When these are finally destroyed, the fire and the smoke and the torment will cease.

Perhaps I read more into your post than you intended. Sorry for the confusion.

franklin · Jan 14, 2003

Originally posted by OldShepherd
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It lacks the comparison, "is like unto. . .." If it is a parable it is the only parable in the entire Bible that identifies two of its characters by name, Lazarus and the very real patriarch Abraham. And finally, it lacks the explanation that Jesus always provided with His parables. Of course, those who teach false doctrine try to explain it away as a parable because it does not fit their false teachings. As recorded in the Talmud, before Christianity, the Jews believed that the righteous in heaven could see the sinful in hell.

the gates of paradise are fixed over against the gates of hell, so that they can see the righteous in rest, and themselves in distress. {b} Tzeror Hammor, fol. 125. 3.

So Mr Oldshepherd, what in your mind has brought you to the conclusion that the Rich Man was such an evil and corrupt person that he deserved to be tormented in a never ending bargequing hellHole huh?  Since your still trying to justify and interpret this parable (which it definetly is) with your literal mind, Why then didn't Abraham say something like this: "Be reminded that you were a liar, cheat, robber, blasphemer, drunkard, murderer, ungodly, unholy, unrepentant, incorrigible piece of slime in your life-so burn in Hell for ever."  Now mr OS just what kind of reasoning and logic are you applying in order to justify the punishment the rich man deserved anyway?  hmmm?   I would think that somehow the "crime" would have to come a little bit closer to matching the "punishment." Don't you think that is sound reasoning? Doesn't God match the punishment with the crime?  Suppose one of our Federal Courts were to sentence a man to one hundred years at hard labor. Don't you reckon he would have had to do something pretty bad to get a sentence like that? Well, you're sentencing (yes you, not God) the Rich man to all eternity in Hell fire and I don't see where he did anything bad. He lived a life of "good things!" So mr OS, you want to take this a step even further?  (Your really making my day you know)  Here is only one example of how the rich man lived his life and the life of Lazarus:

The Rich man: By all appearances and descriptions, the Rich man was an educated, well-dressed, well-groomed and well-mannered person who gave food to the poor, fed the stray dogs, had a merry heart and cheerful disposition, and loved his family.

Lazarus: By all appearances and descriptions, Lazarus was poor, diseased, probably uneducated, poorly dressed, poorly groomed, hungry, a homeless person in the streets.

The Rich man:  We know that God blessed him, because he "received GOOD" And Jas. 1:17 says, "Every good gift ... comes down from the Father."

Lazarus: He was obviously not blessed of God. According to TBN this man just didn't have faith to be healed. And wasn't blessed because he didn't obey God. He wasn't very thankful. He never did say: "Oh, by the way, Mr. Rich man, Thank you for all the food you always gave me," Did he?

The Rich man: And notice carefully what this parable does not say:  It doesn't say that he was an evil man, ever hurt anyone, stole, murdered, cursed God, didn't believe in God, or ever did anything bad. It says nothing negative about the Rich man.

Lazarus:  It doesn't say Lazarus was good, kind, faithful, righteous, or loved God. It says nothing positive about Lazarus.

So mr OS, Do you still want to take this story to it's unrealistic literal limits and say it is not a parable? If that is still your unreasonable decision then what does it literally say? Not what you think it means but what it actually says, and that is:  Pay close attention now, don't want you to miss this.....

If one is healthy, happy, prosperous, gives to the poor, is respectful of authority, loves his family, is concerned for the welfare of others and is enormously blessed of God, and has a life of good things, he will go to Hades and burn in flames of fire without water and without mercy.

If one is poor, diseased, homeless, a beggar, shows no thanks for even the little he does receive, has not the faith to be healed, and is not blessed of God, but only has a life of evil things, he will go to Abraham's bosom where he is comforted. Your interpretation of this parable is ridiculous mr OS! If what you teach about this parable is true, here's the bottom line:
Live a good life now, blessed of God, and you'll burn in the flames of Hell forever.
Live an evil life now, cursed of God, and you'll live forever in Heaven.  

So Mr OldShepherd,  As Paul Harvey says, Good Day!

 

OldShepherd · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
So Mr Oldshepherd, what in your mind has brought you to the conclusion that the Rich Man was such an evil and corrupt person that he deserved to 

*SNIP*

If one is healthy, happy, prosperous, gives to the poor, is respectful of authority, loves his family, is concerned for the welfare of others and is enormously blessed of God, and has a life of good things, he will go to Hades and burn in flames of fire without water and without mercy.

If one is poor, diseased, homeless, a beggar, shows no thanks for even the little he does receive, has not the faith to be healed, and is not blessed of God, but only has a life of evil things, he will go to Abraham's bosom where he is comforted. Your interpretation of this parable is ridiculous mr OS! If what you teach about this parable is true, here's the bottom line:
Live a good life now, blessed of God, and you'll burn in the flames of Hell forever.
Live an evil life now, cursed of God, and you'll live forever in Heaven.  

So Mr OldShepherd,  As Paul Harvey says, Good Day!

A whole lot of humanistic rationalistic, trying to make God's reasoning conform to your thinking and not one single reference to the Word of God. Jesus said God made the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Having or not having in this life is no indication of a person's realtionship with God.

IB · Jan 15, 2003

Yo, What's up?

The word of God is living and active.

I have found that over the years as we mature in our understanding of God's word, certian scriptures will have different meanings to us. As infants we crave milk, but later we get off the milk and start chewing meat. This is the case with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. We shouldn't expect everybody to be at the same understanding we are at.

Many things can be learned from this story and these things will be different base on who we are and where we are at spiritually. Some of the obvious things this story taught me was that Jesus would raise from the dead and people still would not listen to His message. I also find it very interesting that Lazarus is the name of the man that Jesus raises from the dead in John 11. Also being taught is the theory of 'Pay Now or Pay Later' a good concept to study when teaching some one to count the costs. These were some of the things the story taught me as an infant in Christ. Now I crave the deeper meanings. But that is for another discussion.

I am interested in clearing up a matter in one of the previous posts.

Franklin, how did you come to understand so much about the rich man and about Lazarus. You posted:

The Rich man: By all appearances and descriptions, the Rich man was an educated, well-dressed, well-groomed and well-mannered person who gave food to the poor, fed the stray dogs, had a merry heart and cheerful disposition, and loved his family.

Lazarus: He was obviously not blessed of God. According to TBN this man just didn't have faith to be healed. And wasn't blessed because he didn't obey God. He wasn't very thankful. He never did say: "Oh, by the way, Mr. Rich man, Thank you for all the food you always gave me," Did he?

How do we know that the rich man gave food to the poor, fed stray dogs, and was a merry man who loved his family?????

How do we know that Lazarus was not thankful, or had no faith or did not obey god????

I did not see any of this in the scriptures, I even looked at different versions

I agree with your statement that there is no indication as to why the one went to Abraham's boosom and the other to the grave. But that's OK. We do not need all the facts to get the meaning and learn the lesson, nor should we try to assume too much.

Does this story, 'The Rich Man and Lazarus', give us enough informantion to prove there is a hell or place of torment? I don't think that is the lesson the Master was trying to teach.

see ya, IB

Screamin-GOD-Till-I-Die · Jan 15, 2003

hell is were bad people go

Screamin-GOD-Till-I-Die · Jan 15, 2003

thats all ya need to know

OldShepherd · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
PHYSICAL FIRE VERSUS SPIRITUAL FIRE

Without realizing it, those who defend a literal fire in this judgment of God will have a very hard time showing that anyone can be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" in a literal fire. If the fire is literal, then the idea that anyone could be tormented for ever and ever is totally impossible! How so? We will see.

In addition to the burning bush scripture, I posted previously, where the bush burned but was NOT consumed, here is a passage where God protects his children from fire so hot it kills the executioners.

If God can do all this then He can prolong the lives of sinners so that they suffer but are not consumed in the fires of hell.

Dan 3:19 ¶ Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
22 Therefore because the kings commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
BUT
27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the kings counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Anybody else want to tell God He can't do something?

OldShepherd · Jan 16, 2003

The premise has been posted and supported here that the Bible does NOT speak of an actual, literal hell. And various scriptures have been posted to support that view. The first Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus, were Jews. What did the first century Jews believe about a place of torment where those who rejected יהוה and His law would burn in flames of torment for an eternity? Here is a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia published in 1910, which quotes the Talmud and other ancient (as in pre-Christian) Jewish writings. This is what Jesus and His disciples would have believed about this place of eternal torment.

Unfortunately when Charlie Russell created his sect in the 19th century he was completely ignorant of the Jewish foundation of Christianity. And even more unfortunately his followers continue to accept his false interpretation of God's word's as truth.

GEHENNA

by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Nature and Situation.
Judgment.
Sin and Merit.
Nature and Situation.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta'an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. "The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Soṭah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a).A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince:

"I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the d#mned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Sin and Merit.

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a. On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema' and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors ('Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.

Bibliography: Winer, B. R. i. 491;
Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 527-530;

Hastings, Dict. Bible, ii. 343-346;
H. Guthe, Kurzes Bibelwörterb. pp. 271-274, Tübingen and Leipsic,
1903;
G. Brecher, Das Transcendentale, etc. pp. 69-73, Vienna, 1850;
A. Hilgenfeld, Jüdische Apocalyptik, Index, Jena, 1857;
F. Weber, Jüdische Theologie, pp. 336 et seq.;
E. Stave, Der Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum, pp. 153- 192 et seq., Haarlem, 1898;
James, Traditional Aspects of Hell, London, 1903.K. L. B.

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

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Any questions?

franklin · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by OldShepherd
The premise has been posted and supported here that the Bible does NOT speak of an actual, literal hell. And various scriptures have been posted to support that view. The first Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus, were Jews. What did the first century Jews believe about a place of torment where those who rejected יהוה and His law would burn in flames of torment for an eternity? Here is a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia published in 1910, which quotes the Talmud and other ancient (as in pre-Christian) Jewish writings. This is what Jesus and His disciples would have believed about this place of eternal torment.

A very large SNIP !

Any questions?

Yeah OS, I do have a question, why are you so bent on seeing people being burned and brutally tortured and tormented in a never ending so called Hell?  A place that only exists in minds like yours!

It's believers like you who make God out to be the worst of the worst of all corrupt men!

If you are so bent on seeing human being having their flesh burned without end then maybe you should go and visit some of the burn victims in some of the hospitals in your area!  Since you believe it is so literal in a never ending sence according to your mindset!

Here is a short quote from J. Preston Eby that I think would apply to people who think like you do:

If eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life.

If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

Have you ever meditated even for ten minutes on the absurdity of being tortured like this for eternity?

 

 

HesMyAll · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
Yeah OS, I do have a question, why are you so bent on seeing people being burned and brutally tortured and tormented in a never ending so called Hell?  A place that only exists in minds like yours!

It's believers like you who make God out to be the worst of the worst of all corrupt men!

If you are so bent on seeing human being having their flesh burned without end then maybe you should go and visit some of the burn victims in some of the hospitals in your area!  Since you believe it is so literal in a never ending sence according to your mindset!

Here is a short quote from J. Preston Eby that I think would apply to people who think like you do:

If eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life.

If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

Have you ever meditated even for ten minutes on the absurdity of being tortured like this for eternity?

 

 

I don't think you are being fair to Old Shephard.  He is not getting any joy from the thought that many people will be in everlasting torment.  He is trying to warn them of it so that they can avoid ending up there.  We didn't write the Bible or determine what a just punishment is for those who will not obey God.  BTW we are not going to be judged according to J. Preston Eby's opinions.  We're going to be judged according to what is written in the word of God so it does not matter what people think, only what God thinks.

franklin · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Hesmyall
I don't think you are being fair to Old Shephard.  He is not getting any joy from the thought that many people will be in everlasting torment.  He is trying to warn them of it so that they can avoid ending up there.  We didn't write the Bible or determine what a just punishment is for those who will not obey God.  BTW we are not going to be judged according to J. Preston Eby's opinions.  We're going to be judged according to what is written in the word of God so it does not matter what people think, only what God thinks.

 

Well oh my, If you believe that hell is such a terrible place, all you can come up with is, we just need to give them a warning? That is the height of sheer hypocracy! I suppose if you were standing in front of a burning building knowing that there were people inside you would just give them a warning?  As far as what you think about Mr Eby's writings, I think his opinions are much closer to the word of God then the majority of the modern preachers and theologians today!  Here is what he would say about your quote:

If it were true, it is so awful that it should never be spoken without tears and a broken heart. How does the mother of a murderer speak of the corning execution of her boy? Yet the prospect to her is only one of time, and in the limits of the physical. If the people believe it, then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever. The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!

So my dear sister in Christ, if hell is as bad as this, how are you spending your every hour of the day that you are awake telling others about this terrible, horrible place where the torment never ends?  And all you can come up with is, well, all we must do is just warn them? or here is another popular one: we don't want to shove the bible down their throats, I'll just let them look at how I'm living my life so pure and holy in Jesus and that will be enough warning about hell and the eternal flames for them.  Gee wiz, isn't that the typical attitude of most believers now a days?  Sure it is! The real truth of the matter is, if it is as bad as you, OS and others keep on proclaiming it is, then the entire church of Christ is extremely guilty of their silence or they have become extremely CALLOUSED or they do not really believe what they are teaching! 

Bye.....

 

Does hell exist?

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Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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