Why we cannot lose our salvation

OzSpen

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I reread our discussion from the beginning and indeed, you did use that quote in post #19. When I read the quote, I dismissed it as being ridiculously incorrect and forgot that you even posted it. I am a subscriber to the B-Greek mailing list (http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek) and the Greek teachers who regularly contribute to the list have very little good to say about Lenski’s knowledge of Greek syntax. This probably contributed to my dismissing Lenski’s comment on the significance of the article and forgetting about it. Other than for the purpose of this discussion, I have not read any of Lenski’s commentaries in years and I do not personally know how proficient Lenski was in Greek syntax or to what extent he allowed his theology to override an objective interpretation of Greek syntax as he interpreted the Greek New Testament. Nonetheless, I did not exercise due diligence in making sure that I carefully read and accurately kept in mind your posts, and for that I apologize.


Have you studied Luke 18:5 where the meaning and use of εις τελος is very different? Another very interesting use of it is found in John 13:1 where its meaning and use are debated giving us such divergent translations as:

John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. NASB, 1995)

It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love. (NIV, 1984)

However,

It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. (NIV, 2011)

May God continue to bless you in your study of the Scriptures.
No, I haven't done a study of these verses. It is interesting to note the change for the NIV from the 1984 to 2011. My 1978 NIV agrees with the 1984 version.

The NRSV translates as:
Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

And the ESV ...
Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

The NRSV and ESV are almost identical translations.

What are your conclusions concerning John 13:1?

In Christ, Oz
 
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PrincetonGuy

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No, I haven't done a study of these verses. It is interesting to note the change for the NIV from the 1984 to 2011. My 1978 NIV agrees with the 1984 version.

The NRSV translates as:


And the ESV ...


The NRSV and ESV are almost identical translations.

What are your conclusions concerning John 13:1?

In Christ, Oz

The translators of the NIV, up through the 1984 edition, based their translation of εις τελος in John 13:1 upon the syntactical views of such scholars as B. F. Westcott in his commentary on the Gospel According to John and Nigel Turner in Volume III of A Grammar of New Testament Greek by James Hope Mouton, Wilbert Francis Howard, and Nigel Turner.

Moulton began the task of writing the grammar and completed Volume I, Prolegomena, in 1906 and it was published by T. & T. Clark. However, Mouton was killed in the Mediterranean Sea 1n 1917 by a German submarine (World War I) before finishing Volume II, Accidence and Word Formation. A colleague, Rev. C. L. Bedale, a Semitic scholar was expected to collaborate in the writing of the appendix, but he died in a military hospital. The editor, Wilbert Francis Howard, who had worked with Mouton under his guidance as a research student in Hellenistic Greek at Manchester University, completed the work with the several scholars contributing to it, and it was published by T. & T. Clark in 1920. Before he had the opportunity to lay the foundation for Volume III, Syntax, Howard died in 1952. Dr. H. G. Meecham assumed the responsibility of writing Volume III with help of Dr. Nigel Turner, but Meecham died in 1955 when the work on the volume had barely begun. The publishers, T. & T. Clark, asked Turner to complete the work and it was published by T. & T. Clark in 1963. Although W. H. Mouton had not envisioned a fourth volume, W. H. Mouton’s son, Dr. Harold K. Mouton, approved the addition of Volume IV, Style, to the work, and it was published in 1976 by T. & T. Clark.

Turner writes in the prefaces to Volume IV and Volume III that his own views “for the most part” are consistent with those of Moulton even though a span of 70 years had passed, including “the revolution in Biblical studies during the first have of this century.” Therefore, the words of Turner are often attributed to Moulton, and the four-volume grammar is typically referred to as A Grammar of New Testament Greek by James Hope Mouton. Indeed, the title page to Volume III reads, A Grammar of New Testament Greek by James Hope Mouton, M.A. D.Litt., D.D. D.C. L., D. Theol.

In Volume III, page 266, Turner writes,

“Εις: une des prépositions les plus riches en surprises” (Psichari 178), See pp. 253-256.
Its use is very extensive and it is encroaching on the functions of other prepositions, especially εν.

(1) In its normal local sense it is used with a variety of verbs of coming, going, etc., when the verb indicates direction, and is used of motion into a place or state. [Turner then gives examples from the New Testament.]

(2) Distributive Εις with numbers = -fold, up to [Turner then gives Mark 48 as an example from the New Testament.]

(3) Purposive εις with τελος (with a view to the end, fully) [Turner then gives Lk 185 and Jn 131 as examples from the New Testament.]

Thus, we read in the older editions of the NIV,

John 13:1 It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love. (NIV, 1984)

B.F. Westcott writes in his commentary on the Gospel According to John (1881),

unto the end] to the uttermost. The original phrase (εις τελος, Vulg. in finem)
has two common meanings, (1) at last, and (2) utterly, completely. The first sense appears to be the most natural in Luke xviii. 5, and the second in 1 Thess. ii. 16. It occurs very frequently in the LXX., and most often in connections with words of destruction (utterly), or abandonment (for ever): Ps. xii. 1, ix. 18, all. εις τον αιωνα). &c. It occurs, however, in other connections, Ps. xv. 11, lxxiii. 3, xlviii. 8; and constantly in later Greek writers, e.g. Clem.19; Luc. ‘Somn.’ 9. There appears to be no authority for taking it here in the sense of to the end of His earthly presence (yet see Matt. x. 22, xxiv. 13 f.), and such a translation does not suit the connection with before the feast. If, however, we take the words as expressing loved them with a perfect love, then the thought comes out clearly, “As Christ loved His disciples, and had before shewed His love, so now at this crises, before the day of His Passion, He carried His love to the highest point, He loved them to the uttermost

Leon Morris writes,

“He loved them unto the end” does not give the meaning as well as “now he showed how utterly he loved them (Rieu; similarly Knox, NEB). Morris, Leon. The Gospel According to John. The New International Commentary of the New Testament. Grand Rapids: WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1971. Page 614.

William Hendriksen, in his commentary on the Gospel According to John, translates 13:1,

Now Jesus, knowing (already) before the feast of the Passover that his hour to depart out of this world (and to go) to the Father had arrived, having loved his own in the world, loved them to the uttermost.

Frederick Louis Godet, in the third edition, 1881-1885, of his three volume commentary on the Gospel According to John, was of a similar opinion.

J. H. Bernard, in his commentary on the Gospel According to John in the I.C.C. series, 1928, writes,

“εις τελος ηγαπησεν αυτους. To translate these words “He loved them unto the end,” although linguistically defensible, reduces the sentence to a platitude….The statement is εις τελος ηγαπησεν αυτους, and it seems to mean, “He exhibited His love for them to the uttermost,” i.e. in a remarkable manner.

Rudolf Schnackenburg, in his 1975 ‘Das Johannesevangelicum’: III Teil (The Gospel According to John, Volume 3) as translated by David Smith and G. A. Kon, writes on page 16,

The word ‘love’ in this context also recalls the relationship between the shepherd and his sheep, who ‘know’ each other. If the aorist participle refers to the relationship up till then, then the finite verb in the aorist must point to a single action on Jesus’ part. This single action is a manifestation of his love for his own that cannot be surpassed and will take place at the end, since εις τελος can have both a temporal and a specifically qualitative meaning, that is, ‘until the end’ or ‘to the extreme limit’. It is probable that the qualitative meaning is dominant here, although the temporal meaning is not excluded, as in the expression ‘his hour’, to which this τελος is related.

Raymond E. Brown, in his The Gospel According to John in the Anchor Bible series, freely translates John 13:1,

It was just before the Passover feast, and Jesus was aware that the hour had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved his own who were in this world, he now showed his for them to the very end.

In a note on this verse, page 549, he writes in part,

“Perhaps we should not try to be too exact, since the phrase [εις τελος] probably modifies both the knowledge and the act of love. It is inserted to give a theological , as well as chronological, setting to Jesus’ whole passion and not just to the meal.”

Brown then devotes eight pages to the date and nature of the Last Supper, providing a detailed analysis of the differences and similarities between the John’s gospel and the synoptic gospels.

Marcus Dods, in The Expositor’s Greek Testament (1897-1910), presents both interpretations then writes (of Jesus),

“He loved them through all the sufferings and to all the issues to which His love brought Him.”

Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer, in his fifth German edition of his commentary on the Gospel According to John as translated by Rev. William Urwick, writes,

“at last (εις τελος is emphatic) He loved them, i.e. showed them the last proof of love before His death.”


As Brown noted on John 13:1,“there is a prepositional phrase followed by two participles and a main verb: ‘Before the Passover feast, Jesus, being aware … , having loved . . . , now showed his love.’” How one connects the main verb determines how one interprets the passage. Scholars who connect the main verb with the prepositional phrase interpret John to be saying that Jesus loved his disciples to the uttermost (or something similar), their logic being that it does not make sense to have the verse saying, “Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus loved His own to the end.” Scholars who connect the main verb with “having loved” interpret John to be saying that Jesus loved his disciples to the end (or something similar), their logic being that it does make sense to have the verse saying “Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.” (as it is in the NRSV). However, the translators of the NRSV were able to give us this translation at the cost of changing the participle ‘knowing’ into the verb ‘knew.’ I am not comfortable with doing that.
 
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