What God doesn't know...

cubinity · Mar 18, 2011

From the above definitions (see post #80), I am arguing that our omniscient and timeless God does not know that which does not exist; namely, the future.

However, He knows His plans, and there is not a force that can hinder Him, so it would seem fair to say He "knows" His own future, as there is no reason to believe it will differ from His plans.

One caveat, however, is that plans can change...

One of the ramifications of this, for example, is: Did God plan to sacrifice Jesus for the sins of the world BEFORE there were sins in the world? Or, did He have some different set of plans for us, and our sin disjoined us from those plans, so He sacrificed Jesus in order to rejoin us to those plans that He had for us since before the foundation of the earth, thereby demonstrating that He is, in fact, greater than any force that might try to derail His plans?

elopez · Mar 18, 2011

cubinity said:
Fine. Then you acknowledge that, like me, you also have no Biblical basis for what you believe. At least that puts us on the same field. Of course, if you are not admitting that, then it is entirely appropriate for me to ask you for the evidence you claim to have, based on your assertion of the evidence, not on my need for it.

I consider the entire thread of Scripture. Therefore, if God lays claim at one point to have established all authority, then it is not my personal interpretation to say that when an authority is being discussed, that authority is an act of God.

You are capable of recognizing the fundamental difference between a plan to do something and actually doing it, right?

In the present, you plan to attend a film in the future.
The plan is for the future. Yes. But the plan itself exists in the present.
The activity of actually carrying out that plan, however, is still yet to exist, as it is potentially in the future.

They are two fundamentally different things; the plan and the action.

God's future does not exist, but His plan does.
Since there is not a force in nature that can derail His plan, it seems satisfactory to say that He knows His future, even though it doesn't yet exist.
Again, the plan and the action are fundamentally different.
One exists in the present (the concept of the thing), and the other is yet to exist (the thing itself).

And I'd love to have you understand what I'm saying, but there seems to be some difficulty with that. Rather than trying to first understand what I'm saying, you seem anxious to just assume I'm "sorely mistaken."
Looks like we both aren't getting what we want.

Wow. So, you have fundamentally removed the container from the things that exist within it? How's that make any sense?
Eternity is the term you use for the infinitely larger container of all other things, right?
Maybe not. Maybe you actually believe there are somehow two parallel existences, one called "time" and the other called "eternity."
Therefore, everything that is in existence exists as some part of eternity, right?
Maybe not. Maybe they are two mutually exclusive realities.
You can not say we mortal beings exist "in time," but God does not because He exists "in eternity," unless you believe in two separate existences. Either He exists or He doesn't, IMO. There are not two parallel realities, or is there in your opinion?

So, you are saying here that you believe there is some other plain of existence called eternity, mutually exclusive from this existence you and I experience?
Well, that's cool that you believe that, but it doesn't really make any sense to me, and doesn't really have anything to do with my concept of existence.
I honestly don't follow what you are saying when you talk about the two as mutually exclusive/

I brought up the idea because it occurred to me in my private imagination, in response to something I was reading in another thread about free-will and predestination. I brought it up on the forum so others could clue me in to things I didn't know. You've done that by introducing me to Psalm 139, and now to the atemporal/temporal debate. I thank you for those inputs.

I'm just a young, disabled vet trying to work through the differences in what he is learning about Christianity and what he actually believes about the world. The two conflict all the time. I'm still in process. Sorry.

I know I come off like I think it's all about me being right, but I do that to keep dialogue moving. On this forum, if you ask questions, you just get surface answers and then people check out. If you make radical claims, and insist on those claims, however, people pay attention and stay engaged, getting to the deeper loops in their answers, as we've done here. I like all that I'm learning from this dialogue; about myself, about what the Bible really says, and about what we tend to think it says.

I've made no such contradiction. It is your failure to make a distinction between two fundamentally different things that make this seem contradictory.

Again, you can realize the fundamental difference between a concept of a thing and the thing itself?
Maybe you can't. In past posts, you've equated changing how we conceptualize God with God actually changing.

Let me give you an example: Last week, I conceived that God had a bright red nose. Today, I conceive that his nose is dark brown. My concept of God changed, but this change of something did not have any effect on the thing being conceived--that is, God's nose, which He may not even have. Therefore, a concept of something is a thing in and of itself. Distinct from that is the subject of the concept, which may or may not actually exist, but if it does exist, then it is also a thing in and of itself. One can change, or even never exist, without having any consequence on the other, as they are fundamentally different things.

So, are capable of telling the difference between a concept and its subject?
If so, then you should have no problem understanding that a plan is a concept about a non-existent future event, and that plan exists now, in the present, even though its subject is something that may or may not come to exist in the future.

I do believe my position is Biblical, just that you interpret the passages differently than I do. Plus, the idea of God being temporal is actually inconsistent with the Bible, so that should tell you something itself.

You act as if the things you speak of are hard to understand. They're not. Of course there is a difference between making a plan and actually partaking in that plan, as I have been spouting continuously, and if that is your point here I've been making it this whole time. How is it that the plan exists in the present? It could only exist insofar as it was made conceptually, not as an actuality. Thus it could be said that the plan exists in the future as a potentiality.

Well I thought that God's plan was in the future, so I still don't see how you can say that the future God is aware of does not exist to Him. This is what I'm finding pliantly contradictory according to "your" theory, and it actually surprises me that you cannot see it. I'll point it out one last time. How can God know His future if the future doesn't exist? See you're using the argument that the future doesn't exist so it thus cannot be known as evidence that God doesn't know the future of people, yet I can use the same exact argument -- the future does not exist for God -- as evidence that He is likewise not aware of His future. If there is nothing preventing God from knowing His future even though it doesn't exist, then there could also be nothing to prevent God from knowing the future of humanity even though it doesn't exist. I don't think I can make it any more clearer than this.

If you'd love that so much just explain how my argument was circular. It shouldn't be that difficult if it is so obvious.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Think about it. Eternity means it has no beginning and no end, and thus must be a timeless state of existence. This was the state God existed in prior to the creation of the universe. With the first creative act time began as a consequence, in which resulted in a beginning and is finite in the past, whereas eternity has no beginning and is infinite. Therefore there is no moment before creation, and to include the concept of time to an eternal God would be logically incoherent. Now we don't experience eternity either, because like time, you and I had a beginning and are finite. Only God can be eternal and only He can truly experience eternity. It shouldn't be that hard to grasp.

I think I just noticed the problem. You say, "It is your failure to make a distinction between two fundamentally different things that make this seem contradictory," but this isn't even what I'm saying that is contradictory, and I've been making that distinction this whole entire thread. I believe you have misunderstood my argument. My argument wasn't about the concept of God changing but only about how according to your concept of God He actually changes in nature. I haven't been talking about concepts changing at all. If God is timeless prior to creation and is not aware of the future, God must become temporal in order to know the future as it unfolds.

elopez · Mar 18, 2011

cubinity said:
From the above definitions (see post #80), I am arguing that our omniscient and timeless God does not know that which does not exist; namely, the future.

Boy have I got one for you. If God is timeless, that is, existing in eternity, God either knows all of the future exhaustively, knows some of the future (to you only God's future), or He does not know any of it. Logically, I see no other reasons, do you?

cubinity said:
However, He knows His plans, and there is not a force that can hinder Him, so it would seem fair to say He "knows" His own future, as there is no reason to believe it will differ from His plans.

If God knows some of the future, it does exist. I believe this is something you must accept because God is aware of His future plans and thus they exist conceptually for God and exists necessarily, and because nothing is able to prevent God from knowing His future, there should be nothing preventing Him from knowing the future of humanity, not event not knowing the future because God is still able to exercise foreknowledge of His own future.

So it does not seem reasonable that God only knows some of the future (only His future or anything else). God only knows His future which would require for God to become temporal since "to know" requires time and cannot be done in a state of timelessness. It is the same result to say that God doesn't know anything. God changes either way and must become temporal in order to know what happens and to interact. But even God said "I change not." God must therefore know all of the future exhaustively.

cubinity said:
One caveat, however, is that plans can change...

Then the plan is imperfect and needs correction or new information. Some happened that God did not expect, something that He wouldn't know about but only be aware of it as it would happen.

cubinity said:
One of the ramifications of this, for example, is: Did God plan to sacrifice Jesus for the sins of the world BEFORE there were sins in the world? Or, did He have some different set of plans for us, and our sin disjoined us from those plans, so He sacrificed Jesus in order to rejoin us to those plans that He had for us since before the foundation of the earth, thereby demonstrating that He is, in fact, greater than any force that might try to derail His plans?

Obviously the crucifixion of Christ did not exist as an actuality before there was sin. So yes, according to foreknowledge God saw that humanity would fall into sin and need a Savior, so He planned for it. This is what would have happened even if God did not exist: man still would have sinned (committed to what we now call evil).

elopez · Mar 18, 2011

cubinity said:
Like every heated thread on CF, this one revolves around some major terms that people fundamentally disagree upon. I thought I would clear some things up by trying to define some of these terms from my perspective:

eternity - a time-related (versus spacial-related, like "universe") concept of the infinite realm of all things that do and potentially will existence: an indefinite and undefinable set

timeless - an existence that extends backward beyond the subset we call "time," and is conceived to extend forward beyond the subset we call "time"

Okay, I can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask for clarification on any of these definitions, and I'll be happy to clarify.

Btw, I take full ownership for these definitions. They are offered here in peaceful hope of helping you understand my perceptions. If you fundamentally disagree with one of these definitions, or conclude something different about reality than I have from these definitions, I would love to hear about it. However, these are the definitions I am currently operating on.

The only definition I disagree with is eternity, as it does not relate to any concept of time we know. Again this is because of the definition of timeless - "an existence that extends backward beyond the subset we call 'time,' and is conceived to extend forward beyond the subset we call 'time'"

elopez · Mar 18, 2011

Basically eternity infers timelessness, so eternity is a state of existence that God experiences solely.

heymikey80 · Mar 18, 2011

cubinity said:
Just to clarify some points for those who might have missed them.

My hypothesis is that God does not know the future precisely because the future does not yet exist.

My hypothesis takes into consideration that God can perfectly preordain His own future behaviors because there is not a force in potential existence that will ever be able to hinder His plans.

It also takes into consideration that God ordains the futures of those things He admits that He personally establishes, such as authorities. Therefore, any argument that God predicts the futures of any authorities is moot since He has already admitted to being the one that establishes those authorities.

I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. Is 46:10a

Is it to you that the beginning & end are just God's beginning and ending?

The LORD said to me, “Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.” 2 So I called in Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me. 3 Then I made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said to me, “Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. 4 For before the boy knows how to say ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.” Isaiah 8:1-4

Is it to you God is guessing that the boy won't talk before Assyria's done with Damascus?

Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. 22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness. Is 8:21-22

Is it to you God is making people do this through His own authority? Is that a good thing for God to be forcing on His people?

Ran across another: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Mt 6:8

cubinity · Mar 19, 2011

elopez said:
Basically eternity infers timelessness, so eternity is a state of existence that God experiences solely.

Let me ask you this, just so that I can better understand your take on eternity: Is eternity an amount? Albeit an infinite amount, is it not an amount?

Or, is eternity the name you give to a realm of existence mutually exclusive from our own, that only God exists in?

From the things you've said, it sound to me like you believe "Eternity" is some kind of parallel universe or something. Forgive me, but I have no concept of parallel universes. I'm trying to have a discussion about the actual realm we exist in.

Btw, if God exists in the mythological realm you call eternity, does He also exist in our realm? The reason I ask is because if He does not exist in the same reality I do, and I don't believe in your mythological realm, then I'm not sure I can believe your God exists.

Now, I believe in the Bible, and the God of the Bible, who evidently exists in this reality, as He is regularly interacting with entities in this reality, so I don't really see how the God you are describing can be the same God I am describing.

Sorry, but you're parallel universe definition of eternity loses me.

Clear that up, and go back and listen to what I'm actually saying about the fundamental difference between concepts and activities, and our conversation might continue. Otherwise...

cubinity · Mar 19, 2011

heymikey80 said:
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. Is 46:10a

Is it to you that the beginning & end are just God's beginning and ending?

The beginning, which was initiated by God in Genesis, and the end, which will be initiated by God in Revelation, are indicated here. What about all that stuff in between, like us?

heymikey80 said:
The LORD said to me, Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. 2 So I called in Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me. 3 Then I made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said to me, Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. 4 For before the boy knows how to say My father or My mother, the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria. Isaiah 8:1-4

Is it to you God is guessing that the boy won't talk before Assyria's done with Damascus?

Well, if Assyria's attack is coming within the next year, I'd say that's a pretty easy prediction to make about the boy not knowing how to speak. As far as what Assyria will do, I have already acknowledged that God is the establisher of all authorities.

heymikey80 said:
Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. 22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness. Is 8:21-22

Is it to you God is making people do this through His own authority? Is that a good thing for God to be forcing on His people?

Really? You intend to argue that every action of God is "good" for people? Have you not read the rest of the Bible?

heymikey80 said:
Ran across another: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Mt 6:8

The need exists in the present, you just haven't asked for it, yet. God is fully aware of the present. No problem here.

cubinity · Mar 19, 2011

elopez said:
<snip>
You act as if the things you speak of are hard to understand. They're not. <snip>

Well, I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
You keep misrepresenting what I'm saying, twisting my words to mean something other than what I've meant, and then arguing that I'm the one that is somehow "sorely mistaken."
If what I'm saying is so easy to understand, then I must assume that you keep misrepresenting my words in an effort to be deceptive.
I don't want to believe that is true, but I don't see any other explanation because you keep presenting misunderstandings of what I'm actually saying while insisting that I'm easy to understand.
Well, what are you doing here, then?

elopez · Mar 19, 2011

cubinity said:
Let me ask you this, just so that I can better understand your take on eternity: Is eternity an amount? Albeit an infinite amount, is it not an amount?

Or, is eternity the name you give to a realm of existence mutually exclusive from our own, that only God exists in?

From the things you've said, it sound to me like you believe "Eternity" is some kind of parallel universe or something. Forgive me, but I have no concept of parallel universes. I'm trying to have a discussion about the actual realm we exist in.

Btw, if God exists in the mythological realm you call eternity, does He also exist in our realm? The reason I ask is because if He does not exist in the same reality I do, and I don't believe in your mythological realm, then I'm not sure I can believe your God exists.

Now, I believe in the Bible, and the God of the Bible, who evidently exists in this reality, as He is regularly interacting with entities in this reality, so I don't really see how the God you are describing can be the same God I am describing.

Sorry, but you're parallel universe definition of eternity loses me.

Clear that up, and go back and listen to what I'm actually saying about the fundamental difference between concepts and activities, and our conversation might continue. Otherwise...

No, it is not an amount. You're over complicating eternity. I think I've made it abundantly clear that eternity is something only God experiences, and must be different from the time we humans experience. I don't see what is so difficult about that.

If you're comparing eternity to a parallel universe it just won't work, since there is only one eternity that God has existed in. Neither do I have any conception of them, and this conversation is about the realm we exist in, but how in the world could you deny the eternity of God? Rejecting foreknowledge is one thing but rejecting the traditional notion of eternity derived from Scripture is just total nonsense.

And this is something I've also made abundantly clear. If God is timeless and eternal He does not exist in a temporal realm. See you're making the mistake of assuming God can only interact with humanity in one way, and that is by directly intervening Himself. Eternity comes from scripture bro, so it's not "my" God that you would disbelieve in but the way the Bible portrays God that you would disbelieve.

I am saying God is eternal and timeless and changeless. If you think that is not what the Bible says God is, I seriously question your understanding of scripture. I've shown in the Bible where it says God is eternal. I've shown how from those verses that God is timeless, and thus cannot change. There is nothing to clear but, I'm just waiting for you to comprehend my arguments and reply to them.

And you're right about this conversation continuing, because I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

elopez · Mar 19, 2011

cubinity said:
Well, I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
You keep misrepresenting what I'm saying, twisting my words to mean something other than what I've meant, and then arguing that I'm the one that is somehow "sorely mistaken."
If what I'm saying is so easy to understand, then I must assume that you keep misrepresenting my words in an effort to be deceptive.
I don't want to believe that is true, but I don't see any other explanation because you keep presenting misunderstandings of what I'm actually saying while insisting that I'm easy to understand.
Well, what are you doing here, then?

No, what I am doing is using your own theory to disprove itself. That's not twisting or misrepresenting what you're saying but the conclusions that follow from your previous statements. You are just having issues comprehending my argument and what I'm really saying here. That's not my problem.

cubinity · Mar 21, 2011

elopez said:
No, it is not an amount. You're over complicating eternity. I think I've made it abundantly clear that eternity is something only God experiences, and must be different from the time we humans experience. I don't see what is so difficult about that.

I don't accept this definition of eternity, and see no reason to. It doesn't make any sense, Biblically or practically. I have already clearly communicated how I understand eternity. I fully accept that you understand it differently, but this isn't in the least about your perception of eternity. It is about mine. You are proving unwilling to recognize that we fundamentally differ in our perceptions, and you therefore keep nonsensically repeating the same moot arguments against me. If you want to make progress, I would recommend starting by realizing that your perceptions are not the only possible perceptions, and that when someone fundamentally disagrees with you, it behooves you to take the time to understand their worldview, rather than simply insisting on your own.

Now, I understand that you think eternity is something other than a concept of an infinite amount of time, but that is exactly how I understand the Bible, and science, use the term. So, you can believe whatever you want about it. I don't care. I'm here discussing my ideas, and asking if they conflict with Scripture, not whether or not they conflict with your personal ideas.

cubinity · Mar 21, 2011

elopez said:
No, what I am doing is using your own theory to disprove itself. That's not twisting or misrepresenting what you're saying but the conclusions that follow from your previous statements. You are just having issues comprehending my argument and what I'm really saying here. That's not my problem.

I'm not having any problems comprehending anything about this conversation. I just keep explaining my hypothesis after every time you twist something about it.
Don't believe me?
Consider the existence of the future issue:
How many times have I clearly said that I don't believe the future exists?
How many times have you tried to twist that around to make it sound like I believe the future exists?
If you and I are growing tired of anything, it is your insistence that I'm saying something I'm not.

My argument has been clearly stated repeatedly. But, I'll do it again here for your sake, in yet another way:

The future doesn't exist.
God knows everything that exists.
Therefore, God doesn't know the future
God is infinitely powerful.
Nothing can or will stop God from doing what He intends, or plans, to do.
Therefore, God effectively knows His own future.

Now, you haven't used any of my own ideas about this to disprove anything. You only reinterpret what I say, and then use those reinterpretations to insist that I'm wrong. That hasn't gotten you anywhere simply because you aren't dealing with my ideas about this.

elopez · Mar 21, 2011

cubinity said:
I don't accept this definition of eternity, and see no reason to. It doesn't make any sense, Biblically or practically. I have already clearly communicated how I understand eternity. I fully accept that you understand it differently, but this isn't in the least about your perception of eternity. It is about mine. You are proving unwilling to recognize that we fundamentally differ in our perceptions, and you therefore keep nonsensically repeating the same moot arguments against me. If you want to make progress, I would recommend starting by realizing that your perceptions are not the only possible perceptions, and that when someone fundamentally disagrees with you, it behooves you to take the time to understand their worldview, rather than simply insisting on your own.

Now, I understand that you think eternity is something other than a concept of an infinite amount of time, but that is exactly how I understand the Bible, and science, use the term. So, you can believe whatever you want about it. I don't care. I'm here discussing my ideas, and asking if they conflict with Scripture, not whether or not they conflict with your personal ideas.

I've already shown how that definition of eternity is Biblical. I'm not representing the concept of eternity as my personal belief, but how the Bible explains eternity. So this discussion revolves around your beliefs? I'd rather just stop here if your that close minded to where you could care less about the beliefs of another in conversation. And I'm repeating myself because you haven't addressed my argument. You haven't adequately addressed anything in any of your previous posts. Why is that? And don't say it's from a lack me understanding any differences, as I have already went over that multiple times.

elopez · Mar 21, 2011

cubinity said:
I'm not having any problems comprehending anything about this conversation. I just keep explaining my hypothesis after every time you twist something about it.
Don't believe me?
Consider the existence of the future issue:
How many times have I clearly said that I don't believe the future exists?
How many times have you tried to twist that around to make it sound like I believe the future exists?
If you and I are growing tired of anything, it is your insistence that I'm saying something I'm not.

My argument has been clearly stated repeatedly. But, I'll do it again here for your sake, in yet another way:

The future doesn't exist.
God knows everything that exists.
Therefore, God doesn't know the future
God is infinitely powerful.
Nothing can or will stop God from doing what He intends, or plans, to do.
Therefore, God effectively knows His own future.

Now, you haven't used any of my own ideas about this to disprove anything. You only reinterpret what I say, and then use those reinterpretations to insist that I'm wrong. That hasn't gotten you anywhere simply because you aren't dealing with my ideas about this.

I believe you are still having issues comprehending things. You think you need to restate your arguments but you don't, again I'm not twisting them but further relating them to other premises in correlation to your argument. I'll try to explain this one last time, and if you don't see it now you won't ever.

Earlier when I had made the claim that God knows what will happen in the future you told me that if that is the case then the future exists in the mind of God, to which I agreed because if God knows something in the future infallibly, it must happen or God's knowledge is incorrect. This means that what God is aware of in the future does exist conceptually and necessarily. Now, you are here saying that nothing can prevent God from what He wants to do so He is able to know His own future. This is where your confusion comes in thinking that I am twisting what you say. Because of your claim that if God knows what will happen in the future then the future does exist in the mind of God, and since you are saying that God knows His own future, it would only logically follow that God's future exists conceptually and necessarily for Him. I don't see why there is such trouble understanding this. How is this misrepresenting what you're saying when it is you who originally claimed that if God knows the future it would exist for Him? Seriously, stop with the charades as it fools no one.

You must maintain that at least what God knows of His own future, that future would exist, which is really to say that some of the future is yet to happen. See now you could have avoided all of this unnecessary talk about twisting words and wasting time if you had just stuck to our original dialogue and confronted the issue of whether or not God's knowledge of the future being infallible. If God's knowledge of the future is infallible, then again what God is aware of in the future does exist conceptually and necessarily. Or do you disagree? I think this should make it clear how I used your own words to defeat your own theory. You just didn't catch it, hopefully you do now.

cubinity · Mar 21, 2011

elopez said:
I've already shown how that definition of eternity is Biblical. I'm not representing the concept of eternity as my personal belief, but how the Bible explains eternity. So this discussion revolves around your beliefs? I'd rather just stop here if your that close minded to where you could care less about the beliefs of another in conversation. And I'm repeating myself because you haven't addressed my argument. You haven't adequately addressed anything in any of your previous posts. Why is that? And don't say it's from a lack me understanding any differences, as I have already went over that multiple times.

I have been patient in continuously repeating ideas that I feel have been ignored.
Show me the same courtesy: Repeat in a post, one at a time, any idea you think I have not addressed. I ask this because if I haven't addressed it, it is because I am not recognizing it.
So, go ahead and do that, and I promise to address it.
Btw, I also must have missed how you demonstrated that eternity as a non-time based, not quantitative thing that only God experiences is a Biblical concept.
Please, either tell me what post you did that in, or just repeat it, and I promise to thoughtfully address it, okay?
Sorry for any misunderstanding that I caused.

daydreamergurl15 · Mar 21, 2011

I don't think you can attach time like past, present and future when speaking about God. He is outside of time, so what we call past, present and future wouldn't apply to Him.

Now, does God know OUR future, absolutely and He plans accordingly. I believe one of the biggest examples are the prophecies of the coming Messiah and then the fulfillment by Jesus Christ.

cubinity · Mar 21, 2011

We seem to be writing at the same time, so I apologize if I do not address here what you are posting while I write:

elopez said:
I believe you are still having issues comprehending things. You think you need to restate your arguments but you don't, again I'm not twisting them but further relating them to other premises in correlation to your argument. I'll try to explain this one last time, and if you don't see it now you won't ever.

Thank you for your determination and patience with me.

elopez said:
Earlier when I had made the claim that God knows what will happen in the future you told me that if that is the case then the future exists in the mind of God, to which I agreed because if God knows something in the future infallibly, it must happen or God's knowledge is incorrect. This means that what God is aware of in the future does exist conceptually and necessarily. Now, you are here saying that nothing can prevent God from what He wants to do so He is able to know His own future. This is where your confusion comes in thinking that I am twisting what you say. Because of your claim that if God knows what will happen in the future then the future does exist in the mind of God, and since you are saying that God knows His own future, it would only logically follow that God's future exists conceptually and necessarily for Him. I don't see why there is such trouble understanding this. How is this misrepresenting what you're saying when it is you who originally claimed that if God knows the future it would exist for Him? Seriously, stop with the charades as it fools no one.

Apart from your last line, I found this very helpful. Thank you.
The concept is a fundamentally different thing than the future event.
Remember when I made that distinction?
So, yes, God has a concept of His future that will one day become real.
I don't know what you mean when you say "necessarily."
This is all great, and we can agree on this, without saying anything about the topic of this thread.
This thread deals with the future, not concepts of the future.
The future, the actual, real, existent events in the future, do not yet exist.
Since only God's plans fall into what we agree upon, we still have link this to the topic of the thread for it to be relevant.

elopez said:
You must maintain that at least what God knows of His own future, that future would exist, which is really to say that some of the future is yet to happen. See now you could have avoided all of this unnecessary talk about twisting words and wasting time if you had just stuck to our original dialogue and confronted the issue of whether or not God's knowledge of the future being infallible. If God's knowledge of the future is infallible, then again what God is aware of in the future does exist conceptually and necessarily. Or do you disagree? I think this should make it clear how I used your own words to defeat your own theory. You just didn't catch it, hopefully you do now.

Okay, so I hear you saying (IOW, this is my understanding of your posted text) that God infallibly knows His own plans, and since there is nothing to stop Him, those plans will become a reality.

I do understand that, but I don't see how this defeats my hypothesis in any way, particularly because my hypothesis is not about God's plans or future actions, but about all of the stuff that fall outside of that.

Does that help?

cubinity · Mar 21, 2011

daydreamergurl15 said:
I don't think you can attach time like past, present and future when speaking about God. He is outside of time, so what we call past, present and future wouldn't apply to Him.

Where do you get this idea from? That's the issue.

daydreamergurl15 said:
Now, does God know OUR future, absolutely and He plans accordingly. I believe one of the biggest examples are the prophecies of the coming Messiah and then the fulfillment by Jesus Christ.

God did that. Messiah is entirely His doing, and therefore has nothing to do with knowing our futures. However, at what point did God plan Jesus? Was it part of His plan when He created the universe? Did He know people were going to sin before He even made them? If so, how do you know? Or, is Messiah a reaction to something that people did that God did not foresee? That's one of the issues with this example.

daydreamergurl15 · Mar 21, 2011

cubinity said:
Where do you get this idea from? That's the issue.

That God is outside of time?

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

Now, I don't want you to get caught in the word "past" look at the context, 1000 years to God is like yesterday [past] and like a watch in the night [present].

1 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You can take that as being past or future, for God.

I think all in all, it just tells us that time doesn't apply to God.

God did that. Messiah is entirely His doing, and therefore has nothing to do with knowing our futures.

Well, then there wouldn't be a need for a Messiah if God thought that man could be saved without Him. And God obviously realized that man needed a Savior even before we were formed.

He tells Jeremiah that He knew him before he was formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5). Prophecies were another sign that God knew things before they were going to happen because the Messengers were just staying what was given to them by God. He told the Israelites to go and take the land of Canaan because He had already delivered it over to them and there are countless prophecies that shows Him to be an all knowing God.

However, at what point did God plan Jesus? Was it part of His plan when He created the universe? Did He know people were going to sin before He even made them? If so, how do you know?

I don't know. That's something you have to ask Him.

Or, is Messiah a reaction to something that people did that God did not foresee? That's one of the issues with this example.

Well, seeing as the world was made through Christ and that He is Lord and our Messiah, I can pretty much assume that Christ was already here before Adam sinned.

What God doesn't know...

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

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Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

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jesus is; the rest is commentary.

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

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jesus is; the rest is commentary.

Daughter of the King

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

Daughter of the King

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