The Metaphor of Hell (Part Two)

Phaedron777

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Don't get the wrong idea. I like your theory, in fact I need to find the first thread you made on it. I really don't feel anyone, aside from satan and his angels, should burn for all eternity. It might be that time does not exist in the spiritual realms, so an eternity could pass in a second. It's a tricky concept to grasp, then again the Bible doesn't mention any kind of restoration or reformation for those who go to the lake of fire, and if it did people just fear God less and be even more lax...
 
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Jpark

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we (fallen mortals) are cut off from God precisely because God is the lake of fire (the sun).

no one can see the face and God and live.

According to the bible God has found a way around this
and we will someday return to the garden and see God face to face.
but I personally dont know anything about how this is done.
Psalm 139:7-8 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Besides, eternal separation is only for those who oppose Christ in His coming (2 Thess. 1:9). Rev. 14:10 indicates torture in God's presence. Matt. 18:34-35 shows that if the second commandment is not kept, there will be torment.



As for Job 37, that's quoted out of context.

Job 37 (NLT) We cannot look at the sun,
for it shines brightly in the sky
when the wind clears away the clouds.
22 So also, golden splendor comes from the mountain of God[1].
He is clothed in dazzling splendor.
23 We cannot imagine the power of the Almighty;
but even though he is just and righteous,
he does not destroy us.

[1] Job 37:22 Out of the north he comes in golden splendor; God comes in awesome majesty.

Out of the north - That is, the symbol of the approaching Deity appears in that quarter, or God was seen to approach from the north. It may serve to explain this, to remark that among the ancients the northern regions were regarded as the residence of the gods, and that on the mountains in the north it was supposed they were accustomed to assemble.
So then, he's merely comparing God and His tabernacle to the sun.
 
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Hillsage

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Don't get the wrong idea. I like your theory, in fact I need to find the first thread you made on it. I really don't feel anyone, aside from Satan and his angels, should burn for all eternity. It might be that time does not exist in the spiritual realms, so an eternity could pass in a second. It's a tricky concept to grasp, then again the Bible doesn't mention any kind of restoration or reformation for those who go to the lake of fire, and if it did people just fear God less and be even more lax...

A concept that you need to grasp is this; God shouldn't burn the devil for eternity either. But He should purify him also with the purgative fire of God. Why should God "purify" the devil instead of 'torturing' him for eternity, you might ask. And the answer is, because he/Satan was simply a tool in the hand of God, and he simply did what he was created for.

ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Another concept you should grasp, is the fact that translators did a great disservice in translating the word Aion and Aionios as age and eternity!!!! What sense does that even make? How can one word be translated as both 'a period of time/age' in one verse, and as 'timeless/eternity' in another verse. Augustine, who was a Latin scholar and not a Greek scholar is the main one who is responsible for this travesty. The word that should have been used in the Greek, if eternity was truly meant was ADIOS.

0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only).

Aion should always be translated as age and aionios should always refer to something happening within the age. Aion is a noun and aionios is the adjective form of that noun. Excellent studies are out there supporting this understanding.
 
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Phaedron777

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It all goes back to the original Hebrew. Life and death are not merely some game. Our heavenly father is doing everything he can for us.

The two witnesses ministries (the house of yahweh) are here now and revealing the truth to us.

Satan, the so called father of lies, even lies about HER own identity. Moses knew all of the egyptian mysteries. I too have studied them. They worship nuit, the goodess of the void.

The goddess of nothingness is equal and opposite to the heavenly father. Her perfection comes in non-existence. When the material world of nothingness was changed into something, her natural desire was to return life to the nonexisting state.

Eve wanted to be wise, like the gods. The female principle is material harmony, but her divinity lie in pure nothingness.

Scriptures have been changed and altered to suit the roman church.

Fire is living and of light.

Now, if we see that satan is female, and that God is trying to beat death, negativity, the darkness of hell, etc. Then she absolutely must be defeated.

You would not be so eager to redeem the devil if you suffered torture and death because of her.
 
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Senecharnix

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Exodus 33:7 And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp. 8 And it came to pass, when Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle. 9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. 12 And Moses said to the LORD, See, you say to me, Bring up this people: and you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, I know you by name, and you have also found grace in my sight. 13 Now therefore, I pray you, if I have found grace in your sight, show me now your way, that I may know you, that I may find grace in your sight: and consider that this nation is your people. 14 And he said, My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest. 15 And he said to him, If your presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. 16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and your people have found grace in your sight? is it not in that you go with us? so shall we be separated, I and your people, from all the people that are on the face of the earth. 17 And the LORD said to Moses, I will do this thing also that you have spoken: for you have found grace in my sight, and I know you by name. 18 And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and you shall stand on a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Did you notice that the text says: "11 And the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend"? Two people cannot talk to each other face-to-face as friends do without seeing each other's faces. Joshua was in the Tabernacle with Moses and God. The chances are rather large that he also saw God's face.

A key passage is the one that says: And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory.
Moses is asking God to allow him to see God as He appears in the full glory of His Holy Presence. That continually occurs, while God sits on His throne. To see God's face in all of its glory is fatal. God, however, does sometimes appear to individuals in a less splendorous, or if you prefer, a more mundane fashion....

No, I am not trying to be amusing. I am describing God as He has appeared to me in visions within which I have encounterd Him outside His throne room. In His throne room, His complexion is bight white rather than golden brown. I have not been allowd to see His face in such circumstances....

When the Son was carrying out his mission as Yeshua, he looked a lot like God appears outside His throne room. Now that he has resumed his natural appearance, he looks nothing like he did as Yeshua. In fact, he looks a lot like the typical representation presented in Rennaisance artwork. By the way, not only is his appearance completely unlike that of God, but his demeanor is also completely unlike God's demeanor. For, whereas God is grandfatherly, Yeshua is like a general. He is usually nice. But he commands. God, in turn, speaks softer and usually requests. In other words, God will say, "James, I would like for you to do this for me." The Son, however, will typically say, "Do that, James."

Believe whatever you wish about whatever, including Hell. But you are just indulging in wishful thinking. There is nothing holy about Hell's fires. It is a place of despair, torment, and destruction. Most folks who have ever lived or will do so are doomed to end their existence in it. I need no other proof than what God has shown and taught to me about it and humanity. So, either accept what I tell you or continue insulting my integrity and sincerity....

By the way, there is far more to Hell than has been revealed to humanity. It is part of what I have come to think of as the infernal regions. Even so, not all of it is hot and horrible or dreary. Satan's throne room happens to be dank but lit somewhat brightly. As is the case with God's throne room, a hush prevails over it. But there is nothing good or promising about its serenity....
 
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Bernie02

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Hello S,

Did you notice that the text says: "11 And the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend"? Two people cannot talk to each other face-to-face as friends do without seeing each other's faces. Joshua was in the Tabernacle with Moses and God. The chances are rather large that he also saw God's face.

Surely you notice the contradiction raised in v. 20, by which we can reasonably assume that v. 11 was a figure of speech (given other places in Scripture which support the idea that one cannot speak face to face with God, 1Cor 13:12, Ezek 39, Jn 1:18, etc.), and thus an expression not to be taken literally. Also, your proposition that two people can't talk face to face without seeing each other's face is not true even of humans in this age, much less of God, as I've spoken in a virtual 'face to face' reality online with people thousands of miles away by both my correspondent and I tapping on a keyboard--much as you and I and many others do here, again rendering "face to face"merely a meaningful expression.

To see God's face in all of its glory is fatal.

Well this is the gist of the thing anyway, isn't it? To see God in a 'vision' is not the same as actually seeing God 'face to face'.

Believe whatever you wish about whatever, including Hell. But you are just indulging in wishful thinking. There is nothing holy about Hell's fires. It is a place of despair, torment, and destruction. Most folks who have ever lived or will do so are doomed to end their existence in it. I need no other proof than what God has shown and taught to me about it and humanity. So, either accept what I tell you or continue insulting my integrity and sincerity....

And herein our differences arise to their greatest opposition. God took three years out of my life 18 years ago to show me the hidden principles of salvation, many of which I've posted other places and more recently here contend for here. They have never been refuted. I posted a challenge here a while back, providing a philosophical/Biblical proof that the notion of either eternal torment in hell or annihilation of the individual is a logical impossibility. The thread seems to now have fallen off the radar, but I don't recall you attempting a refutation.

I make no claim to seeing Jesus' face--the only one who is reported to have caught a glimpse was hurt by it on the Damascus Road about 2,000 years ago (Acts 9:8). I find myself grateful 18 years after the fact that I didn't have to see Christ's glorified essence, as the burning hell I went through over those three years--just so I could hear His voice clearly--was hell enough for me. You say your visions led you to a hopeless hell. I make the counter claim that my experiences led me to the other side of the fire to see the love and mercy of God, that even while the sinner is made to repay fully for sins committed knowingly (Mat 5:26), yet Christ Jesus stands as Intercessor for every man, woman and child of the human race within the Father's fire, restoring to life that which wrath destroys, bringing forth offspring from the sinner's death. Your vision gives humankind a message of despair. My experience of Christ shows that the Lord is immeasurably greater than the destruction brought on by human evil, that the church doesn't 'see it' because they're mired in a literal understanding of the Bible like you, where primarily death and destruction by an angry God is all that is seen. The metaphor God has woven throughout His holy word holds the higher truth, which Christianity stubbornly resists for the most part, vindicating passages like Mat 7:13-14, which the organized church believes they are free from. The sobering part of this to my thinking is, if it took three years of burning hell and misery--including losing all I had--job, house, savings, etc.--just to be made to see how God saves all in the midst of hell's regenerative fires, what must be in store for those who strive even further against Him? I do not downplay the terrible reality of hell, having experienced a significant measure of its misery myself--but I reject firmly as Jesus' witness your testimony of hell as only a "... place of despair, torment, and destruction. Most folks who have ever lived or will do so are doomed to end their existence in it."

"either accept what I tell you or continue insulting my integrity and sincerity..."
I believe it's the truth that insults your 'integrity and sincerety', as it does all that is false in all of us.

You'll find in your own good time that He who saves is greater than your testimony, S. God bless you in your walk.
 
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Hillsage

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It all goes back to the original Hebrew. Life and death are not merely some game. Our heavenly father is doing everything he can for us.
ALL HE CAN! Not according to the church of orthodoxy. According to 'it' God has tied his almighty hands behind his back and said OH my who'd have ever thought I screw up making man 'so bad' that almost all of my beloved creation is gonna have to be tortured by me for eternity. Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me. As a matter of fact it's so poor that it would have to be a plan from man IMO, because I don't think God is that poor of a planer.

Eve wanted to be wise, like the gods. The female principle is material harmony, but her divinity lie in pure nothingness.
According to scripture Adam/Eve were made in the "image" of God and they were to pursue "After" the likeness of Elohim/'the gods'.

GEN 1:26 And Gods/Elohim said, Let us make man in ourimage, AFTERour likeness:

Just as David no more had the Heart of God because he was "after" it, so also, Adam and Eve were no more "like" 'the Gods'/Elohim just because of being created in their image.

They were not created "like" God. If they were 'like God' they never would have sinned, pure and simple. It was their desire to be "Like God" that made the temptation of the devil so desirous. And the truth be known, according to scriptures they DID become more like ONE of the plural Godhead after sinning.

GEN 3:22 And the Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:


The only problem was they became more 'like God' by partaking of the wrong tree in the Garden. The 'life/likeness of God' is supposed to comes by the 'tree of life' and not the tree of 'good and evil'.

Scriptures have been changed and altered to suit the roman church.
Amen brother, but don't end up missing 'the substance of that revelation' to end up 'grasping another shadow'. The teachings concerning PURGATORY and HELL, were both "doctrines of the Nicolaitanes" which were spoken against in Revelation. Niko laites comes from a compound word etymlogically, which means 'to rule over' 'the laity'. Don't yo see it? The church set itself up as the answer to those 'hell fires'. "JOIN US" and you don't burn for eternity in HELL, "PAY US" indulgences and you won't burn as long in PURGATORY. Martin Luther was smart when he dumped purgatory, but deceived in still keeping eternal hell.

You would not be so eager to redeem the devil if you suffered torture and death because of her.
And you wouldn't be so quick to 'torture your enemy' if you truly were "Like God" and believed His scriptures concerning your enemies.

MAT 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be SONS of your Father who is in heaven;...

Sonship is a higher calling than most of the church can even imagine aspiring to IMO.

GOD created the devil for His purposes;

ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


 
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Senecharnix

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I must admit, Bernie02, you are exceptionally talented in twisting scriptures and deluding yourself....

Nothing is more difficult to open than is a closed mind....

Do not bother replying. I will not waste another moment reading your nonsense or responding to it....
 
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Bernie02

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I must admit, Bernie02, you are exceptionally talented in twisting scriptures and deluding yourself....

There was another man about whom this was said. He overturned the money tables placed at the entrance to the temple in Jerusalem. Yet He continued to speak to them in metaphor....

"The Jews therefore answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, seeing that You do these things? Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?'" (Jn 2:18-20)

Nothing is more difficult to open than is a closed mind....
Very true. Not a single soul took the time ask Jesus what He meant by His amazing statement that in three days He would rebuild 'this temple'. Their minds were automatically and firmly closed to any shred of openness. They flatly refused to try to make sense of the metaphor. This is spiritual death, the effect of that disease in human spirit which the fires of hell will purge. This blindness is as common today among those who find their comfort in the prison of literalness as it was of their forebears in Jesus' time--we still refuse to look to the metaphor to see the greater truth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Phaedron777

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I hope and feel in my heart that this is wrong, or at least partly wrong, but this is the most severe interpretation of Biblical Reality. If you can live with it and play the perfect legalist you are sure to be free of worry.

Let's say a mass murderer kills someone's family thereby causing a lifetime of grief for the child. Yet they later repent, are converted, and saved. Now let's also assume that the child of about 15, was raised christian, but is now completely alone in the world and without guidance. He harbors resentment in his heart and falls away. He drowns his sorrows for years.

One day the sinner comes to make atonement and the child even forgives him, the child then returns to reading his Bible, realizing this time he'd been forgiven of much, then he stumbles on Hebrews 6:4-6 and realizes he can't come back to God.

Or of what justice, if the now converted mass murderer, can love himself, but an honorable person who blames himself deeply over something is in sin because they have come to despise themselves and everything God has given them.

Now where is the righteousness that the mass murderer, who did this to many many families, goes into heaven, but the children of his victims, are eternally damned?

If such is the case, then clearly there is something far more important to God then any form of righteousness: that of his own pride. God would sooner take a mass murderer to heaven and eternally damn 1000 children who fell away out of grief and anger then see his holy word put to shame. Christianity must always come after.

We know that God is the same yesterday, now, and forever, so let's take a look at some of his old testament laws. We certainly don't see much of his compassion there. We do see many examples of his great wrath which give us reason to fear him. Even in the new testament we see Annais and Sapphira instantly killed for holding out on some money, as if the holy spirit of God were worse than a mafia tax collector.

So what leads you to believe that the same God, who values his namesake more then any amount of human tragedy, wouldn't eternally damn all sinners?

What does God have to do to make people understand he is very serious about his wrath and he wants them to fear him? If a serial killer holds a bunch of chidlren hostage, and they, being naive and thinking him to be their friend, fall out of line, will not he be forced to kill some of them to make his point? And if the other children who have seen this example don't fall in line will not he kill all but one hostage?

Now let's see what happens when the whole world believes that God is the lake of fire. Now we'll have a bunch of people who believe they are addicted to sin, but aren't too concerned, as they believe the sin will just be cleansed in the lake of fire.

So God, clearly a powerful king with a gun aimed at all the world demanding obedience, even has a crowd of people who look forward to going into the lake of fire.

If God were as loving as you make him out to be, could not he have sent a dream or vision to the children who were in danger of falling away? Could not he have sent the same to some sinners who were close to dying, but that had never heard of the Bible? Could not he do something about all the evil in the world?

Here's another story. Once upon a time some people read the whole Bible, are filled the holy spirit, and come to Christ. Then the enemy captures them. Tortures them in every way for some 30 years then kills the ones who won't relent. The others, which relent relatively quickly, he kills them the moment they do.

To add insult to injury, the same powerful man who does this for his superiors, marvels at the ones who endure the 30 years of his torture. In his old age he reads the Bible for the first time, is saved, dies peacefully, and then goes to heaven.

Is there something about God sending his son to die on a cross that makes one inherently righteous? God is saying that righteousness doesn't matter, in the end he's just another king who insists on his own form of obedience, and heaven will merely be filled with those he likes and who contended for their faith according to his rules. He has all the power, therefore he can do whatever he wants.

Behold the fallible loopholes of lawfulness and doctrine, and the subjective nature of what is considered good and evil. Do not all sinners who perish wish that they could have a damascus road conversion experience? Would they not all respond well to just a little personal attention from a loving God? Are they not all lost in all their own tragic circumstances, making a mess of this world, and hoping for God to clean it up?

The sad reality is that out of the billions God created, he only ever meant for a select few to obtain eternal salvation. The rest were predestined to be tormented in hell for all eternity. Whether he is saving the evil or slaughtering the good, all he cares about is whoever will bow down to him faithfully. In his eyes one tiny lie is just as much sin to go into the lake of fire as slaughtering millions of people after getting them to fall away.

Who then is saved? Not the true seeker of truth and righteousness for all, thats for sure. Only the obedient spiritual elitist, who God foreknew before the foundations of the world.

What if Lucifer thought that God was unfair, and so he rebel. What if overtime he even wanted forgiveness and was sorry, but because God would not forgive him he decided to take down as many people as possible? You'd think God could either do away with him or resolve things, but instead he is permitted to test us as a sanctioned adversary. What does this say about God's character?

If there were true justice, the evil would be destroyed instead of getting to rule the world. If there were karma we would see the bad guys getting what they deserve.

I therefore submit to you, it's not about good and evil, right and wrong, love and justice, or any kind of ideals. It's merely about dominion of the forces of the powers that be. Just as God above is an all powerful king, those who would rule the earth are also all powerful kings. Raw power is all there really is.

Just as Christ's mercy extends to accepting us sinners for who we are, we must accept God for who he is. Then the emphasis on the personal relationship.

Oh we know that God is righteous, that's not the issue. The issue is that everyone of us is born in sin and no one has a perfect track record. So if we are all sinners and all sin is equal before the Lord, then we are altogether damned. No man has any claim to mercy, but the mercy of God "I will have mercy upon whomever I will." What then becomes the standard of who is finally saved is that it's entirely up to God.

God might just as well damn everyone of us, yet it is often someone who has sinned a lot that is chosen because they deeply appreciate the saving grace that is offered them.

We are a modern people who are sick of the war, sick of the old barbaric dark ages, yet we are doing much worse to world and to each other and to ourselves. Our refusal to accept reality for what it is, and our insistence upon doing things in a new way, will be our upheavel. Our vast intelligence and interpretative power does little more then delude us when it comes to understanding ancient medieval tomes.

The word of God is a short concise message that says what it means to say, not a gigantic legalistic lawbook with a gazillion clauses for what if scenarios. Nor would God authorize writing such a lawbook, because then the people who knew their situation was hopeless would intentionally sin and bring down other people.

Is Luck therefore the greatest principle of all? Is heaven like a boat, that if you get there too late and it's full, you're out of luck? Are people with bad luck merely cursed?


But we see none of God's mercy in these examples, and what is the need for mercy is the lake of fire is no something to be very worried about? The spirit of Grace did away with the law, but we are naturally more inclined to trying to follow the law and falling short. We have turned the new testament into another kind of law.

This is why, ultimately, it is up to God to judge. The child who fell away and then drowned in his sorrow in sin and booze, but eventually forgave his families murder and came back to God, might be forgiven out of Gods compassion.

Where as someone, with no tragedy in life, who merely was enlightened and had the holy spirit, but fell away and started worshipping other gods, would probably be damned under the full example of Hebrews 6:4-6. Then he found the other religions he chose sucked, and wanted to come back, but it was too late.

Or willfully sinning. One out of tragic loss, and another man thought that grace would abound and he could be forgiven of anything. God might be inclined to have some compassion on the former, but the latter was simply doing what he could get away with.

The man of grace is in a personal relationship with God, by which God knows his heart, his intentions, his thoughts, and his actions. Each person is their own unique case.

Galations 1:6 "I marvel that you are soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ onto another gospel."

Galations 3:3-4 "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain, if it be yet in vain."

Though the apostle Paul spoke like this, he did not pronounce any of them hopeless, but did regard that anyone teaching another gospel should be accursed, and what happens when one is accursed? Misfortune in all directions. Such that they might think twice about what they are doing.
 
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Hillsage

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I hope and feel in my heart that this is wrong, or at least partly wrong, but this is the most severe interpretation of Biblical Reality. If you can live with it and play the perfect legalist you are sure to be free of worry.

You "hope and feel in your heart"???? You know that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked according to scriptures, don't you? Now you know why I quote lots of scripture with my posts, unlike most. And then you write this 'extensive' post that is almost totally playing on your 'heart strings' as justification to speak against me/us. I could write a rebuttal just as long as yours fully backed with scripture, and then claim "perfect ignorance" 'on your part' even as you've judged me/us as "perfect legalists" for our view....but I won't.
 
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Bernie02

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I agree with Hillsage--you're placing way too much weight on a purely emotional presentation. To get to the meat of the situation, get away from the emotionalism and delve into the ethics and metaphysics of salvation. Instead of building 'cry me a river' straw man fictions (coming to Heb 6:46 and losing faith in finding--and misinterpreting--it is pretty superficial), ask yourself more relevant questions, like: what is it that corrupts the thought processes of sinners? What is the nature of sin, what are its components and how does God deal with it in the Bible?

I take as truth the approach of many of the Schoolmen, that a perfected human essence can and will only seek out the true and good in everything. This means that all things being equal, in a state of perfection the human mind would strive only toward the good and true. Thus all would naturally desire a relationship with God, the greatest good. In the fall, something was introduced (whether one takes the fall as literal or metaphorical is irrelevant, the principle remains the same in either picture) to human essence which corrupts our thought and, causally, actions. We sin. If all would seek God naturally in a perfect state, it is infinitely better in every way for God to remove the impediment to movement toward the good than for Him to destroy or torture for all eternity those He could have cured of their disease.

And btw you're only presenting a tired old argument--universalism invites sin because all are saved anyway and no one's going to hell, ad infinitum, ad nauseum--which tells me you're giving a knee jerk reaction instead of actually thinking things through. Yes, there are forms of universalism toward which this argument might carry some weight. But most Christian universalists are quite aware of the Father's warnings against sin and take them very seriously. Think outside the box, P777. Try to avoid the tripe...for instance, using cutesy terms like 'play the perfect legalist'. Perfet legalist? Are you sure you know the definition of legalism?

Have you even read the OP P777? I'm looking for a reasonable, rational debate on the particular interpretive structure there. I presented certain passages from Scripture and my understanding of them. Have you a well reasoned critique to offer?
 
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Evergreen48

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Hillsage said:
According to scripture Adam/Eve were made in the "image" of God and they were to pursue "After" the likeness of Elohim/'the gods'.

GEN 1:26 And Gods/Elohim said, Let us make man in ourimage, AFTERour likeness:

Just as David no more had the Heart of God because he was "after" it, so also, Adam and Eve were no more "like" 'the Gods'/Elohim just because of being created in their image.

They were not created "like" God. If they were 'like God' they never would have sinned, pure and simple. It was their desire to be "Like God" that made the temptation of the devil so desirous. And the truth be known, according to scriptures they DID become more like ONE of the plural Godhead after sinning.

GEN 3:22 And the Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The only problem was they became more 'like God' by partaking of the wrong tree in the Garden. The 'life/likeness of God' is supposed to comes by the 'tree of life' and not the tree of 'good and evil'.


"Behold, the man is become as one of us" - On all hands this text is allowed to be difficult, and the difficulty is increased by our translation, which is opposed to the original Hebrew and the most authentic versions. The Hebrew has hyh hayah, which is the third person preterite tense, and signifies was, not is. The Samaritan text, the Samaritan version, the Syriac, and the Septuagint, have the same tense. These lead us to a very different sense, and indicate that there is an ellipsis of some words which must be supplied in order to make the sense complete. A very learned man has ventured the following paraphrase, which should not be lightly regarded: "And the Lord God said, The man who WAS like one of us in purity and wisdom, is now fallen and robbed of his excellence; he has added t[dl ladaath, to the knowledge of the good, by his transgression the knowledge of the evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever in this miserable state, I will remove him, and guard the place lest he should re-enter. Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden," &c. This seems to be the most natural sense of the place. ~ Adam Clarke ~
 
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Hillsage

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Evergreen48
I actually like Adam Clarke's Commentary more than most others in the passages where I've compared him. But the very fact that he makes a big intro talking about how difficult this verses translation is, speaks volumes I think. He did fit it all into the orthodox doctrinal box, but it is obvious to me that some pushing/additions and shoving was required to do so. I also believe that Adam did not personally have the understanding that I am presenting. When scripture said that knowledge would increase in the time of the end...Orthodoxy wants you to think that means computers and internet. I think it meant revelation knowledge of the 'light of truth' that was lost in the 'dark ages'.

I also don't think he dealt adequately with the issue of the temptation of Eve to begin with, in regards to the comment I made about them "not being like God". When he says scripture should have said "And the Lord God said, The man who WAS like one of us in purity and wisdom, is now fallen and robbed of his excellence;"

Which "one" part of the Godhead "us"... WAS the only part of the godhead that was "in purity and wisdom"???

So, I hope you can see this interpretation he offers, opens up another can of worms theologically speaking. My view is consistent with the scripture and the plan of God for man from the beginning....I think anyway. ;)

If Eve/Adam were already "like God in purity AND WISDOM" then they made a pretty UNWISE decision to eat...pure and simple. Like I said before, the fact that the devil was tempting them with becoming more like God is what made this temptation so enticing to Eve.

GEN 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be LIKE God, knowing good and evil."

Eve wanted to be LIKE God and that's what made the sophistry of the devil so good. And as I said earlier Gen 3:22 supports that view perfectly.
GEN 3:22 And the Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

So if Adam/Eve became more UNLIKE God in purity and wisdom with their UNWISE decision, this scripture confirms that they became 'more LIKE' God in the knowledge of Good and evil. After all who would know more than God since HE CREATED THAT TREE right?
 
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Evergreen48

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Hillsage said:
Evergreen48
I actually like Adam Clarke's Commentary more than most others in the passages where I've compared him. But the very fact that he makes a big intro talking about how difficult this verses translation is, speaks volumes I think. He did fit it all into the orthodox doctrinal box, but it is obvious to me that some pushing/additions and shoving was required to do so. I also believe that Adam did not personally have the understanding that I am presenting. When scripture said that knowledge would increase in the time of the end...Orthodoxy wants you to think that means computers and internet. I think it meant revelation knowledge of the 'light of truth' that was lost in the 'dark ages'.

Hi Hillsage. :)
I wasn't necessarily endorsing Clarke's 'orthodox' position by posting his commentary on Gen. 3:22, as I am far from being a mainline or orthodox Christian myself. Adam Clarke was very much that, seeing that he was a avid, and seemingly irrepressible lover of what he called the 'blessed Trinity'. But I do appreciate and trust his renowned expertise in the biblical languages. And the proper translation of Gen. 3:22 was my reasoning behind the 'copy and paste' from his commentary.

Apparently Robert Young, the author of "Youngs Literal Translation of the Bible" agreed with Clarke, as the following is his translation of Genesis 3:22:

"And Jehovah God saith, 'Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age. . . . "




I am guessing that you meant Adam Clarke, not the adam of Genesis, when you say that you do not believe that person had the the understanding that you have concerning these things, and that you are basing your remark on Daniel 12:4. If that is the case, I would respectfully disagree that you or anyone else would have gained any more understanding concerning biblical things in the past 200 years or so than anyone who was born in1760 and died in 1832, as was Adam Clarke, and other Bible scholars who lived and died during this period. (I know this thread is not about 'Preterism' Vs 'Futurism', but I would remark here that the 'time of the end' has occurred (70 A. D.) and that knowledge did increase sharply between Daniel's prophecy and the time of the end, as 'the end' of which Daniel prophesied came when the old law covenant was abolished by Jesus' redemptive work on the cross, which was followed some 40 years later by the destruction of the holy city, Jerusalem and the holy temple of God which stood therein. At that time the last remaining vestige of the old law covenant came to an end and was destroyed along with the city itself and the temple.)

I also don't think he dealt adequately with the issue of the temptation of Eve to begin with, in regards to the comment I made about them "not being like God". When he says scripture should have said "And the Lord God said, The man who WAS like one of us in purity and wisdom, is now fallen and robbed of his excellence;"

Which "one" part of the Godhead "us"... WAS the only part of the godhead that was "in purity and wisdom"???

Since Mr. Clarke was not answering any issue of yours I doubt that he did adequately deal with the issues you speak of. :)

So, I hope you can see this interpretation he offers, opens up another can of worms theologically speaking. My view is consistent with the scripture and the plan of God for man from the beginning....I think anyway.

Personally I don't think God had or has a 'plan for man'. Man has to plan but God doesn't. He says "Let it be" and it is! But I do believe he allows 'things' to 'play out' according to his foreknowledge of how and when they would.


If Eve/Adam were already "like God in purity AND WISDOM" then they made a pretty UNWISE decision to eat...pure and simple. Like I said before, the fact that the devil was tempting them with becoming more like God is what made this temptation so enticing to Eve.

As I am not a literalist concerning adam/Eve and the 'garden of eden' I couldn't return very much on your comment. But I do believe that metaphorically speaking, man (adam/Eve) most certainly did know before he disobeyed God that it was wrong to do what God had commanded him not to do.

GEN 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be LIKE God, knowing good and evil."

Eve wanted to be LIKE God and that's what made the sophistry of the devil so good. And as I said earlier Gen 3:22 supports that view perfectly.
GEN 3:22 And the Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

But what Clark and Young have brought to light about the proper translation of Gen. 3:22 does not support your view perfectly. Right? :)

So if Adam/Eve became more UNLIKE God in purity and wisdom with their UNWISE decision, this scripture confirms that they became 'more LIKE' God in the knowledge of Good and evil. After all who would know more than God since HE CREATED THAT TREE right?

Huh? :confused:
 
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Hillsage

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I am far from being a mainline or orthodox Christian myself.
We might just get along fine then.
biggrin.gif
Seriously I appreciated you post and will try to answer back, as best I can.


Apparently Robert Young, the author of "Youngs Literal Translation of the Bible" agreed with Clarke, as the following is his translation of Genesis 3:22:

"And Jehovah God saith, 'Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age. . . ."
I also like YLT and refer to it quite often. Perhaps here is the place to try and clear up your question at the end of your last post concerning my comment, where I said....
"So if Adam/Eve became more UNLIKE God in purity and wisdom with their UNWISE decision, this scripture confirms that they became 'more LIKE' God in the knowledge of Good and evil. After all who would know more than God since HE CREATED THAT TREE right?"

I reread Clark and admit I didn't totally follow his line of thinking correctly with my answer. But I still would say this. If Adam/Eve WERE LIKE God as far as their purity and their wisdom, then their UNWISE (unlike God) decision is a contradiction to them having 'wisdom like God'...right? And if they became more like God after their sin 'according to the following scripture then Clark/Young should have a problem.
GEN 3:22 And the Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
I don't know if that helps clear up my problem with Adam Clark's attempt to deal with this verse when compared to the verse that says;
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
I still maintain they were NOT 'like God' but were pursuing 'after' God's likeness, which according to the above scripture is exactly what happened when they sinned.

I am guessing that you meant Adam Clarke, not the adam of Genesis, when you say that you do not believe that person had the the understanding that you have concerning these things, and that you are basing your remark on Daniel 12:4. If that is the case, I would respectfully disagree
You're right I meant Adam Clarke. We will just have to disagree on 'no new knowledge' being available today. If we can agree that Martin Luther came to a knowledge that was 'new' 500 years ago...then that's the kind of 'new' I'm referring to. Or maybe I should say it's 'new' to the church because I think they lost a lot of truth in the 1500 years before Martin that the church is still not talking about.

(I know this thread is not about 'Preterism' Vs 'Futurism', but I would remark here that the 'time of the end' has occurred (70 A. D.)
You are right and I agree. I used that verse because most who are here are 'Futurists' I think, and so it really is a 'bit' wrong for me to use it in that manner, because I am not 'Preterist' or 'Futurist' either. Personally I lean more toward the 'Symbolist' POV.

But what Clark and Young have brought to light about the proper translation of Gen. 3:22 does not support your view perfectly. Right?
smile.gif
No, but like I said earlier, I don't think their view was well supported contextually by scripture either.

Thoughts?
 
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