Speaking In Tongues

solo66 man · Feb 22, 2002

It is not allowed. You can refuse a gift from God; if not out right,
attitude will take care of it. The baptist religion actually states and is preached against it. I have heard Charles Stanley, one of my favorite teahers of the Word preach against it. He said you do not know where it is coming from. I do. I can tell if someone is putting on or not. There may be some who practice so much when they are alone that they can fool you, just like the practiced lier. But that is not usual. I attend a small church so, it is tough one to pull off.

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

Why is it that 8 out of 10 churches preach against today's version of speaking in tongues?

If what manifests itself as a gift of the Holy Spirit is actually from the Holy Spirit, wouldn't you think that more churches would be convicted by the Holy Spirit to use them?

If today's babble is from God, why do so many Christians not accept it?

The Taylor 310 · Feb 22, 2002

Hello

I will say that i practise the gift of tongues and that i do believe it is still a gift

However, i will digress to say that it cannot be a sign or a condition for ones salvation. I do agree that the position held by Pentecostals is misaligned with the Word. A verse in Ephesians says that the Holy Spirit is the deposit of salvation to every believer, and that can be manifested through ways OTHER than tongues... such as peace, long-suffering, joy and etc

And i do also concur that not every Christian needs to have it... after all, its a gift of God and we can choose to take it or no. If my faith says that tongues does not exist and should not be taken, well i will not. If my faith says that it is a gift of God and it is freely available to those who ask, then i will partake. But i do NOT believe that God shows favouritism... and i will NOT say that it makes me a better or more faithful Christian either

Speaking tongues or not, i still meet the one and only condition of salvation: Jesus Christ

Eric H · Feb 22, 2002

Hello all. I am new to this forum. I'm not a scholar, not looking to antagonize, just to find truth, so I'd like to just mention a few ideas that we can all consider on this subject.

First, I've never heard speaking in tongues myself but know several people attending a local church where this happens occassionally and others who have visited churches where this practice occurs.

Secondly, I don't believe the Bible states specifically that these manifestations were to stop at any particular time. Also healing, etc. However I do have some concerns which may start another whole topic.

Concern #1:
We are warned in Scripture that Satan can appear as an 'angel of light' and to beware of false teachers and false prophets who can deceive 'even the elect if that were possible' with signs and wonders. Consider the Olivet Discourse and Christ's teaching about the end of the age-about people saying "Here is Christ, There is Christ!" He told us not to believe them.

I must now clarify that I'm not implying that tongue speaking, healing, etc. is inherently of Satan.

Concern #2:
I've never been told of an instance where the tongue was spoken and two others interpret as Scripture tells us this should occur.

Droobie said:
"Now, with speaking in tongues, it is usually when God has a message for someone in the congregation/gathering, whether it be in tongues in another language, or as a scripture, God will also provide an interpreter, or it may be the person themselves who can relay the message."
Is the one speaking in tongues permitted by scripture to interpret. I don't believe so.

Also, I believe the Bible is the Word of God and the source to refer to. Not what man says about the Bible. Many who believe the same will say as above that the tongue is to reveal something. Should not Scripture reveal all that we need. I believe we are warned about looking outside of scripture for information.

This is not a personal attack. As I said before, I'm just a sinner like everyone else, surveying the landscape looking humbly for truth.

Concern #3
Man is always looking for physical manifestations of God. Proof if you will. Remember Jesus speaking to the Pharisees who were always looking, asking, even demanding physical signs. He said no sign will be given except for that of Jonah. (My words, not an exact Biblical quote.)

Remember 'doubting Thomas'? Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe.

My point is that some churches appear to be demanding signs and wonders and even 'conjuring up' God to draw members. This can be very frightening.

I'll conclude by saying I'm not personally attacking anyone, just looking for truth myself. and hoping there are others out there doing the same. We have to put aside our human pride and wall of defense and look to God instead of man.

Eric

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

Eric,

Let me be the first to say "Welcome". It is refreshing to see somebody with an open mind willing to ask questions. This is a great forum to learn and to question. There is very little negativitiy here and you can really kick off your shoes and be comfortable here.

Keep on posting, I like your style.

1973 · Feb 22, 2002

Hi christians,
I would first like to thank all of you who have posted so far.You have all helped me reliase that I was right.Most of the christians I know told me that if you cannot speak in tongues then you are not saved.I guess they are wrong and whoever put that idea in their minds has really done them a misservice.
I belive most of the christians do fake it because when the pastors announce its time to pray you will get everybody in the church shouting.Can all posses the gift of speaking in tongues?
I doubt it.
Thanks solo66 for the welcome.
Droobie thanks for pointing out that they is speaking and praying in tongues.I guess I forgot to mention the later when I started this thread.But it was picked up later by others and explained very well.
I thank God for bring me to this forum.Its is a great place and I guess as StogusMaximus mentioned a great place to learn and ask questions.
God bless you all.

P.s. StogusMaximus, Bishop Milingo,a catholic Bishop use to conduct prayer sessions using tongues back in his church in Zambia before the Vatican decided it was not good for the followers and decided to bring Bishop Milingo to Rome when he kept going on with the sessions against Romes wishes.

Rose-Mary · Feb 22, 2002

Thanks for your welcome Solo.

My question is what is the point of speaking in tongues, especially if no one can translate what is being said?

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

1973,

Thanks for the info, that was something I did not know.

Welcome to the board, and what is the meaning behind your name?

jbenjesus · Feb 22, 2002

Originally posted by StogusMaximus
Jesus did not teach us to pray in tongues.

No one can teach you how to pray in tongues. It's not something you teach.

Originally posted by StogusMaximus In my opinion I agree with you. The disciples had to spread the Word to people who spoke a different language. In order for the Word to be shared, the Holy Spirit spoke through the disciples in the language that the locals would understand.

Today people think you have to speak in tongues to prove that you are saved. The language they are speaking is babble. They say it is a language that God understands. I believe God understands all languages and we don't need a special one just to talk to Him.

I see tongues as a "Look at me", "I am special", attitude with certain churches. I do believe in tongues, but I don't believe it to be the babble that is used today.

When the 120 in the upper room received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues it was not for the purposes of evangelizing and "spreading the Word". Reread Acts. They spoke in tongues praising God. It says "We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." They were not preaching the gospel. It was simply the initial evidence that they had received the Spirit. This is how the apostles and the rest of the church recognized that a person received the baptism in the Spirit. That's all.

Another reason that the reception of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in an unknown tongue is this:

James 3:6-8 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

It is the ultimate expression of submission of man to God in that even the most unruly member of the body has been put under submission to Jesus Christ. The tongue no man can tame, but Jesus can! Remember what comes out of the heart is what we speak. When God renews our heart and puts His right Spirit within in us, by His baptism in the Spirit, we can't help but praise Him and confess His wonderful works, albeit it in an unknown tongue.

Peter was the one that rose up and preached them the gospel in the language of the surrounding area (most likely Hebrew or Aramaic). The gospel was not preached in tongues.

What made this event special and undeniable is that the traveling Jews who knew multiple languages heard Jews who did not know their native language back where they were born, speak and glorify God in that language.

Acts 2:8,11 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? ...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

It is unfortunate that you discredit this as babble, Stogus, which implies to me that you have not had the pleasure of receiving the Holy Spirit and consequently speaking in tongues due to the reception. If you had, you would not call it babble. For those of us who have received the Spirit and have spoken in tongues because of it, know that it is not babble.

I pray that Jesus create a strong desire in you to seek and receive the Holy Spirit as the apostles did, the early church did, and so many countless generations since pentecost to today.

I Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
Tongues can be of men, or of angels. Meaning known of men and unknown of men.

The gift of tongues is for public ediifcaiton and exhortation when accompanied with interpretation of tongues.

I Corinthians 14:4,5,13 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; ...I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. ...Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Many times that person speaking in tongues does not understand what he/she is saying. That person is told to pray that he may interpret. But others may actually have the interpretation.

I Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

If no interpretation comes forth, the praying in your given tongue as the Spirit gives utterance is your personal communion and prayer with God. Your mind may lack the understanding, but your spirit is being edified.

If no one interprets then it edifies no one but yourself, which is alright. We just need to be sensitive to the Spirit because it may just be that He would have us pray with Him quietly in tongues for He prays a perfect prayer, knowing the will of God.

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

jbenjesus,

Jesus said, "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'" Matthew 6:9

He did not say you should wait till you receiving the Holy Spirit and then pray in tongues.

It is unfortunate that you discredit this as babble, Stogus, which implies to me that you have not had the pleasure of receiving the Holy Spirit and consequently speaking in tongues due to the reception

When we first enter the kingdom of God, we are born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8. At that time, as Jesus promised, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, moves from merely being "with" us to being "in" us, and our bodies become his temple.
"... But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. "
John 14:17

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? " I Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19-20.

I pray that Jesus create a strong desire in you to seek the truth and not rely on spouting babble as proof of your salvation.

Eric H · Feb 22, 2002

Is edifying oneself by using a tongue without interpretation 'alright' in a gathering of believers?

I think the point Paul makes is no. These activities are for church edification, not self edification. Read the rest of chapter 14. Paul speaks of using spirit and mind in worship. Also speaks of what occurs when non-believers come among the worship service and speaking in tongues and prophesying is taking place. He concludes by saying let all things be done properly and in and orderly manner.

Here is a side note. It seems most people cite this passage of scripture as a basis for the acceptance of speaking in tongues. However this passage places more importance on prophesying than on tongues. I don't believe churches who practice speaking in tongues also place a high level of importance on prophesying, do they?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but if my above conclusion is true, why not prophesy more than speak a tongue. Is it possible that a false prophesy can be easily exposed but a false tongue cannot be? I don't know. Just something to consider.

I welcome comments.

Eric

jbenjesus · Feb 22, 2002

Originally posted by StogusMaximus
jbenjesus,

Jesus said, "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'" Matthew 6:9

He did not say you should wait till you receiving the Holy Spirit and then pray in tongues.

That's so irrelevant. You don't teach someone to speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit. They simply do.

If we can't pray in tongues b/c of this one scripture then Paul was wrong for teaching it and practicing it. Peter and the rest of the 120 were wrong for doing so. The Samaritans and Cornelius' household werer wrong for engaging in praying in tongues. The "apparent" disciples were wrong for engaging in it as well in Acts chapter 19.

When we first enter the kingdom of God, we are born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8. At that time, as Jesus promised, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, moves from merely being "with" us to being "in" us, and our bodies become his temple.
"... But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. "
John 14:17

Being born again involves the water and the Spirit, inseparable. Hence, we have baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit. Faith, accompanied with repentance and obedience, is required to appropriate salvation for oneself. We are, well some us truly are, the temple of the Holy Spirit because by the baptism of the Spirit we have received the Spirit. Not because I spoke or speak in tongues. I am not saved because I spoke or speak in tongues.

It's surely not because we believe we are the temple of God therefore we are. We are the temple because He indwelled us.

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? " I Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19-20.

I pray that Jesus create a strong desire in you to seek the truth and not rely on spouting babble as proof of your salvation.

Give a wise man wise teaching and he will thank you for it.

Give wise teaching to a foolish man and he will mock you for it.

Josephus · Feb 22, 2002

there are tongue-speaking Catholics I know of. Even Baptists. Don't know about Methodists though. *g j/k

But it is true, I've seen and heard people operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, regardless of their denomination. Sometimes when they do operate in the Holy Spirit though, some of those denominational walls are removed and a true, lasting, growing peace ensues. It is one of the most beautiful things to witness. Get us together as a unified church, and eeehhh boy, watch out Devil; Welcome Heaven.

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

Originally posted by jbenjesus
That's so irrelevant. You don't teach someone to speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit. [/B]

That is completely relevant.

Why didn't Jesus say,"This, then, is how you should pray: Blaa blaaa Blaaa, Yaaada Yaaaada Yaaada, See My BowTie, Tie My BowTie, Blaa Blaa Blaaa, Amen".

Speaking in tongues had it's time and purpose, God wants us to speak to him in our own language. He doesn't not give select people a special language "hotline" to Him.

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

Originally posted by jbenjesus
Give a wise man wise teaching and he will thank you for it.

Give wise teaching to a foolish man and he will mock you for it.

Give a wise man wise teaching and he will thank you for it.
Give a wise man foolish teaching and he will challenge you on it.

jbenjesus · Feb 22, 2002

Originally posted by Eric H
Is edifying oneself by using a tongue without interpretation 'alright' in a gathering of believers?

I think the point Paul makes is no. These activities are for church edification, not self edification. Read the rest of chapter 14. Paul speaks of using spirit and mind in worship. Also speaks of what occurs when non-believers come among the worship service and speaking in tongues and prophesying is taking place. He concludes by saying let all things be done properly and in and orderly manner.

Here is a side note. It seems most people cite this passage of scripture as a basis for the acceptance of speaking in tongues. However this passage places more importance on prophesying than on tongues. I don't believe churches who practice speaking in tongues also place a high level of importance on prophesying, do they?

Don't take this as a personal attack, but if my above conclusion is true, why not prophesy more than speak a tongue. Is it possible that a false prophesy can be easily exposed but a false tongue cannot be? I don't know. Just something to consider.

I welcome comments.

Eric

Paul was not discounting tongues and teaching you shouldn't speak in tongues. He was saying when done in a gathering, seek to prophesy because it edifies all. However, if you do speak in tongues, then pray for the interpretation, again, that all would be edified. The point of this passage is not which gift is being excercised in the body, but the importance is that the whole body is being edified, in contrast to just having personal edification. There should be members in that body that are mature and can discern the spirit and bring correction if necessary.

Paul prayed in tongues more than they all did. So he's not saying don't pray in tongues. But he would rather speak 5 words you understand than 1000 words you don't. However, if tongues are spoken. do so in an orderly manner and interpret that all may receive benefit.

I don't feel attacked.

RayNay714 · Feb 22, 2002

I have grown up in churches that believe in speaking in tounges. We believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:4. I believe that there is a time and place for this. I know that many people are confused about what it is. I am also skeptical of those who do it in church. It has been mentioned that it is a prayer life between yourself and God, I believe that speaking in tounges gives you a way to ask God for the things that you don't even know that you need. It can help you converse with God on a different level.
Someone said that Jesus taught us how to pray using the "Lord's Prayer." But nobody prays like that. Most people pray "Oh Jesus, I need your help, Oh Jesus, to come and take care of my needs, Oh Jesus." We have come away from our prayer lives, and I believe that speaking in tounges is one way to communicate to God. I don't believe that you have to have this gift to be saved, but God sent his Holy Spirit as a comforter and a way to help us. Maybe I have been more confusing than helpful, but I believe that this is a gift that we often refuse, and the reason that other people do not practice it is because they have been told it is wrong. There are simple answers to every question, we just try to make things harder than they truly are.

StogusMaximus · Feb 22, 2002

Someone said that Jesus taught us how to pray using the "Lord's Prayer." But nobody prays like that. Most people pray "Oh Jesus, I need your help, Oh Jesus, to come and take care of my needs, Oh Jesus."

People do pray like that, and they should pray like that. My point was if we were supposed to pray in tongues, wouldn't Jesus have said when asked how to pray, "Wait until you receive the Spirit, then you will pray in tongues."

solo66 man · Feb 22, 2002

Tongues are spoken in my church on occasion and there is always an interpretation as has been the case in any church I have been in where tongues is permitted in my past 7 years as a Christian.

Originally posted by Eric H
Hello all. I am new to this forum. I'm not a scholar, not looking to antagonize, just to find truth, so I'd like to just mention a few ideas that we can all consider on this subject.

First, I've never heard speaking in tongues myself but know several people attending a local church where this happens occassionally and others who have visited churches where this practice occurs.

Secondly, I don't believe the Bible states specifically that these manifestations were to stop at any particular time. Also healing, etc. However I do have some concerns which may start another whole topic.

Concern #1:
We are warned in Scripture that Satan can appear as an 'angel of light' and to beware of false teachers and false prophets who can deceive 'even the elect if that were possible' with signs and wonders. Consider the Olivet Discourse and Christ's teaching about the end of the age-about people saying "Here is Christ, There is Christ!" He told us not to believe them.

I must now clarify that I'm not implying that tongue speaking, healing, etc. is inherently of Satan.

Concern #2:
I've never been told of an instance where the tongue was spoken and two others interpret as Scripture tells us this should occur.

Droobie said:
"Now, with speaking in tongues, it is usually when God has a message for someone in the congregation/gathering, whether it be in tongues in another language, or as a scripture, God will also provide an interpreter, or it may be the person themselves who can relay the message."
Is the one speaking in tongues permitted by scripture to interpret. I don't believe so.

Also, I believe the Bible is the Word of God and the source to refer to. Not what man says about the Bible. Many who believe the same will say as above that the tongue is to reveal something. Should not Scripture reveal all that we need. I believe we are warned about looking outside of scripture for information.

This is not a personal attack. As I said before, I'm just a sinner like everyone else, surveying the landscape looking humbly for truth.

Concern #3
Man is always looking for physical manifestations of God. Proof if you will. Remember Jesus speaking to the Pharisees who were always looking, asking, even demanding physical signs. He said no sign will be given except for that of Jonah. (My words, not an exact Biblical quote.)

Remember 'doubting Thomas'? Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe.

My point is that some churches appear to be demanding signs and wonders and even 'conjuring up' God to draw members. This can be very frightening.

I'll conclude by saying I'm not personally attacking anyone, just looking for truth myself. and hoping there are others out there doing the same. We have to put aside our human pride and wall of defense and look to God instead of man.

Eric

Calenlanthir · Feb 22, 2002

Stogus, have you read 1 Corinthians 12? It lists all of the gift's of the Spirit you can have, and tounges is in the middle of them! Th reason some denominations don't have this gift, is because THEY DON'T WANT IT!!! And I have been given the gift of tounges, and it is the most miraculous felling, besides the feeling of Salvation. I go to an Assembly of God church, and we have God moving in huge ways through our church. Here's the chapter that sys we CAN have the gift of Tounes.

1 Corinthians 12:1-11
"Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed", and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except through the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowlage by means the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguisghing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tounges, and to still another the interpertation of tounges.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one as he determines."

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