Concerning total depravity

I would like to know what Calvinists think concerning the following verses:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

"That is" indicates that the "in my flesh" is synonymous with "in me". So this is what it says:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Mark 14:38 " Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

So then, when the Scriptures say there is none who seek God, none who do good (Romans 3:10-11), it's talking about the flesh.

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Is "the Spirit" in Gal. 5:17 referring to the spirit, the Holy Spirit, or both?

There are Scriptures which indicate that there is a zeal for God in all men:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7543740-4/#post56978807

Eccl. 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Eccl. 3:11 commentaries indicate that all men have a deep rooted desire for eternal life.

Acts 17:27-28 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

In fact, idolatry is evidence that man seeks God, although in ignorance (Acts 17:23), ignorance leading to rejection (Rom. 1:21-23; Eph. 4:18), hardening of heart, or disbelief (Exodus 32:1).

I now present several Scriptures from Job which possibly indicate that there is a spirit in man which has sentience:

Job 15:12-13 "Why does your heart carry you away?
And why do your eyes flash,
13That you should turn your spirit against God
And allow such words to go out of your mouth?

There is distinction here. The heart and eyes are united, but the spirit is distinct. Furthermore, to turn indicates control rather than willfulness. Or am I mistaken?

Job 20:2-3 "Therefore my disquieting thoughts make me respond,
Even because of my inward agitation.
3"I listened to the reproof which insults me,
And the spirit of my understanding makes me answer.

What does it mean here? The spirit of my understanding? Makes me answer?

Job 26:3-5 "What counsel you have given to one without wisdom!
What helpful insight you have abundantly provided!
4"To whom have you uttered words?
And whose spirit was expressed through you?
5"The departed spirits tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.

What does it mean by "departed spirits"? Demons or the spirits of men?

Job 32:7-9 "I thought age should speak,
And increased years should teach wisdom.
8"But it is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
9"The abundant in years may not be wise,
Nor may elders understand justice.

Job 32:17-18 "I too will answer my share,
I also will tell my opinion.
18"For I am full of words;
The spirit within me constrains me.

What is this spirit in man?

I'm not attacking total inability. I'm attacking total depravity.

I know very well that unregenrated man cannot come to God on their own. I'm just saying that every man has inherent desire for God and this is what God looks for in man (1 Samuel 16:7).

If man is 100% depraved, then why does God look at the heart? If man is 100% depraved, then that means there's nothing to look for in man.

beloved57 said:

j park:



Thats not True..man does not desire what he does not seek rom 3:

11There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God.

The word seek is the greek word

ekzēteō and means:

to seek out, search for

2) to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3) to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4) to demand back, require

The word crave means:

To have an intense desire for. To need urgently; require. To beg earnestly for; implore. To have an eager or intense desire.

So scripture does not agree with you !

Click to expand...

As I pointed out, that verse is referring to the flesh.

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

"That is" indicates that the "in my flesh" is synonymous with "in me". So this is what it says:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Mark 14:38 " Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

If "the spirit is willing" is not a general statement, and only was referring to Jesus' disciples, then why did Paul say the doing of the good was not present in him? "The spirit is willing" is clearly a general statement.



Also, are you going to address my questions?

Why does God look at the heart if even the heart is entirely depraved?
What is the spirit in man?
Is there distinction between the spirit and the heart?

beloved57 said:

So until a man is born again of the Spirit, he cannot and does not, and has no desire for the True God..

Click to expand...

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Rom. 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Rom. 3:11 ...THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Seek = crave = To have an intense desire for

Rom. 3:11 + Rom. 7:18 = There is no intense desire for God in man's flesh
a

beloved57 said:

So scripture does not agree with you !

Click to expand...

Acts 17:26-27 and He made... every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

The scattering of the builders of the tower of Babel (Gen. 11:8) was so that mankind would seek God, not self-rule (Gen. 11:4). Does this mean God has failed (Gen. 8:21) yet again?

Or is there purpose for the Flood and for the scattering?

It is the latter. The Flood and the scattering were to make Himself known to the world.

Ezek. 38:23 "I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD."'

beloved57 said:

jp:



Thats what man is by nature flesh..

Click to expand...

If that's true (man=flesh), then why is there distinction?

For I know that nothing good dwells in man; for the willing is present in man, but the doing of the good is not.

If nothing good dwells in man, then how can the willing be in man? See, there is a distinction between man and his flesh. Man and his flesh are not one, or how can man be enslaved to his flesh if man is flesh? Man is enslaved to himself?

When Paul said "in my flesh", he was drawing distinction between himself and his sinful nature.

1 Cor. 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Mark 14:38 " Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

beloved57 said:

jp:



Because Paul was born again when He wrote that, He was born after the flesh and after the Spirit.

But before being born again, one is only born after the flesh, hence Jesus says Jn 3:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

If Nicodemus was already born again of the Spirit, it would be none sense for Christ to say to Him ye must be born again..

So again, before one is born of the Spirit, they are flesh..and the fleshly man, does not desire after or seek after the True and Living God..

What you have stated is not true according to scripture..

Click to expand...

Gen. 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

7 translations render it as "also is flesh".

Gen. 6:3 (YLT) And Jehovah saith, 'My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Gen. 6:3 (REB) And Yahweh said - My spirit shall not rule in man to times age - abiding, for that, he also, is flesh, - Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Man = joined spirit + flesh

Not entirely flesh. Or are the Bible translations I cited biased? YLT says by sinning, man is flesh. No man is flesh until they sin. All are branches until they sin (John 15:5-6).

Acts 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Every person is a child of God until they sin. When they repent, they are children again. When they sin, they are no longer children.

beloved57 said:

jp:



lol you going all over the place and just ignoring the simple truth, I will not respond to you anymore on this issue..

Click to expand...

Alright, I'll address the quote you provided.

In John 3:5-8, Jesus is saying that Nicodemus must be born again to enter God's kingdom (John 3:3), not to have desire for God. Jesus is talking about the skin man is clothed in, not flesh (sin nature).

1 Cor. 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

So that which is born of the flesh = that which is born of the earthly (1 Cor. 15:47-48) and John 3:5-8 cannot be used to support total depravity.



Also,

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Will of the flesh and will of man. Why is there distinction if man is flesh?

When Scripture speaks of the flesh, it is talking about something sentient apart from man. Or it would have said, "not of blood nor of flesh nor of the will of man".