We Have Won!

heymikey80 said:

Yes, the case as it stands, and I explained why that argument was insufficient, and I'm pretty sure we're still arguing it, so returning to the case under controversy would be quintessentially begging the question.

Jones has no alternative possibilities. Under LFW he's not responsible for what results, because there're no alternatives. Under LFW Black also isn't responsible for Jones killing Smith, because he didn't do anything except limit the other possibilities.

LFW fails to represent what you're saying.

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Then we are working off too different definitions of LFW. You deny the CLEAR alternatives staring us in the face. The first alternative of NOT resolving to shoot and the second alternative of changing his mind. We may just have to agree to disagree. Have a good day.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Then we are working off too different definitions of LFW. You deny the CLEAR alternatives staring us in the face. The first alternative of NOT resolving to shoot and the second alternative of changing his mind. We may just have to agree to disagree. Have a good day.

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Those are mindful or willful operations, which return to the "noncausal" problem: the person does not have the capacity to cause into his will based on say, rational thought (or even irrational thought). So with no control over his will, it makes no sense that he can be responsible for what his will wills.

I recognize the assertion that the person is himself in control of his will in your view. But once again, the question is what is that "himself"? If it's his will, all it takes is "one step out" and the same logic prevails above. If it's not his will, then something else has control of the person's will.

That's the basic free will problem. The idea of a free will in reality is simply that the person is not constrained from his available choices by a force that unjustifiably opposes his will.

heymikey80 said:

Those are mindful or willful operations, which return to the "noncausal" problem: the person does not have the capacity to cause into his will based on say, rational thought (or even irrational thought). So with no control over his will, it makes no sense that he can be responsible for what his will wills.

I recognize the assertion that the person is himself in control of his will in your view. But once again, the question is what is that "himself"? If it's his will, all it takes is "one step out" and the same logic prevails above. If it's not his will, then something else has control of the person's will.

That's the basic free will problem. The idea of a free will in reality is simply that the person is not constrained from his available choices by a force that unjustifiably opposes his will.

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Overlooking the question begging, allow me to ask you to explain the will of God using the same logic.

I think we would both agree that God's will is as free as any will could be, so (1) define free will in God and (2) explain how that is differentiated from LFW (as I defined earlier) and (3) defend how an all powerful God couldn't create creatures with a will similar in capacity?

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Overlooking the question begging, allow me to ask you to explain the will of God using the same logic.

I think we would both agree that God's will is as free as any will could be, so (1) define free will in God and (2) explain how that is differentiated from LFW (as I defined earlier) and (3) defend how an all powerful God couldn't create creatures with a will similar in capacity?

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Overlooking the question begging, I'll answer -- granted that theology and philosophy are often baffled by infinites as well as the limitations of what anyone knows. So ... speculation, but reasoning.

God is God. We're not.

Still, God's will is completely consistent with His nature. As such God being First Cause, whatever results He already knows and controls it all. In that sense He is independent of all else, first and ultimately. What is it that returns to Him that He did not first send?

It's awfully clear that God can't create creatures that're uncreated. The idea that He can create an area of reality completely detached from His control is radical, and there'd have to be some evidence somewhere, that God intended such.

There're simpler ways to represent responsibility. A killer is no less responsible for deaths when his murderous will determines to compel his other senses. The will is simply responsible for what he wills. He is his will.

heymikey80 said:

Overlooking the question begging, I'll answer -- granted that theology and philosophy are often baffled by infinites as well as the limitations of what anyone knows. So ... speculation, but reasoning.

God is God. We're not.

Still, God's will is completely consistent with His nature. As such God being First Cause, whatever results He already knows and controls it all. In that sense He is independent of all else, first and ultimately. What is it that returns to Him that He did not first send?

It's awfully clear that God can't create creatures that're uncreated. The idea that He can create an area of reality completely detached from His control is radical, and there'd have to be some evidence somewhere, that God intended such.

There're simpler ways to represent responsibility. A killer is no less responsible for deaths when his murderous will determines to compel his other senses. The will is simply responsible for what he wills. He is his will.

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Amen Mikey , scripture places human responsibility in the mind not in the will , in knowledge not in abillities , in conscience not in choice .

Romans 1-2

None choose to be accountable before God , none choose to be responsible before God , God imposes these constructs on men .

Paul spoke of knowing what is right but nor being able to do it , thus the location is knowledge not ability .

When viewing the reponsibility of the Jews in rejecting Christ Paul again places responsibility in knowledge (have they not heard , indeed they have) therefore regardless of God's hardening and blinding the Jews , they are responsible. Romans 10

Hammster said:

Funny how almost every discussion on man's free will (from the lwf view) ends up being a philosophical discussion and not a scriptural one. Makes me think that there is not a lot of Scripture to back up their claim. But they do have some nice illustrations that seem to be crafted so that their view is validated.

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Funny how some think that because a particular thread turns in a philosophical direction that all the biblical support formerly submitted somehow becomes obsolete? Maybe such individuals need to be reminded of just a few of those passages (which no doubt will be interpreted to suit ones own theological bent) that are claimed to be in support of the philosophical statements being proposed and discussed:



“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs 3:31)

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17)

Luke 10:16 He that hears you hears me; and he that rejects you rejects me; and he that rejects me rejects him that sent me.

Jeremiah 21:8-9 And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death. He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.

Paul's letter to Philemon might help:
1:10 I beseech thee for my child, whom I have begotten in my bonds, Onesimus,
1:11 who was aforetime unprofitable to thee, but now is profitable to thee and to me:
1:12 whom I have sent back to thee in his own person, that is, my very heart:
1:13 whom I would fain have kept with me, that in thy behalf he might minister unto me in the bonds of the gospel:
1:14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will. (RV)

1 John 2:2 - 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[1] the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 - 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Tim. 2:3-6 - 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time..

Romans 11:32 - 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Corinthians 15:22 - 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 - 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Acts 17:30-31 - 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

John 3:16-18 - 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1 John 4:14 - 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Philippians 2:10-11 - 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Timothy 4:10 - 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 - 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Colossians 1:20 - 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Hebrews 2:9 - 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

John 1:29 - 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 - 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[1] the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:18 - 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 - 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 - 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

Isaiah 55:1, 7 - 1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD , and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Matthew 11:28 - 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 9:26 - 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Isaiah 53:6 - 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:14-20 - 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Revelation 22:17 - 17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

1 Tim 1:15 - 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

Romans 5:6-8 - 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 12:46 - 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 12:47 - 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

2 Peter 2:1 - 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

heymikey80 said:

Overlooking the question begging, I'll answer -- granted that theology and philosophy are often baffled by infinites as well as the limitations of what anyone knows.

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Ok, stop there. That is OUR view of man's free volitional choices and your continued insistence on my answering what "causes" the will to determine this over that is begging the question because it presumes a deterministic response is required. We can know more define how man's volition works than we can God's, so a system which presumes to define what scripture itself doesn't goes beyond the mystery and into speculative man made logic and conjecture.

God is God. We're not.

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I agree, but we are more "LIKE" God (i.e. created in his image) than the animal or the tree which is also a created being. Thus, it is reasonable to presume that our wills (knowing both good and evil) and being held morally accountable for eternity work differently than that of animal instinct. You have not drawn any real distinction between a animal choosing according to his greatest desire (nature) and that of a man making a morally accountable choice.

Still, God's will is completely consistent with His nature. As such God being First Cause, whatever results He already knows and controls it all. In that sense He is independent of all else, first and ultimately.

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Whether a nature of any person who makes willful determinations is infinite (uncreated) or finite (created) matters not to its logical possibility. If an all powerful God will to create creatures with the ability to have first cause of their own determinations, in a similar manner that God governs himself, there is nothing within our understanding or within scripture which precludes or denounces such a thought or reason.

It's awfully clear that God can't create creatures that're uncreated.

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And no one here is arguing that we are uncreated, but only that we are created in His Image and thus free to determine our own choices.

The idea that He can create an area of reality completely detached from His control is radical, and there'd have to be some evidence somewhere, that God intended such.

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Depending on through what theological lens you read the scriptures will determine how you take such texts that show God angry with man and their sin...his giving the world over to control of the evil one....his 'contending' with man...his being pleased by them....his seeking true worshippers...his rebuke for their lack of faithfulness...etc etc

Some rather see God as one who guarantees a win by playing both sides of the chess board, or as a child playing with army men, controlling every move of both the good and bad guys so as to ensure victory in the battle. Others see God as the scripture actually presents Him....a passionate warrior, lover and friend who weeps with us when a loved one dies, who wrestles with man, relents His wrath or gives bread in response to prayer...who is romantic and desires to be pursued...who is jealous...but loving and patient.

It is all perspective my brother and as one who has known Him from both perspectives; I wouldn't trade the latter for the former for all the riches in the world...

And the sum of all this is, some want a measure of independence from God. That is the ongoing echo of the original sin, to be like God, knowing good and evil. Such knowledge destroys, as Adam found out.

Go on thinking that you have a measure of independence from God. Forget that every breath you take is provided by Him, and should He withdraw it, your vaunted "independence" will evaporate like fog on a sunny day. Go on, we won't stop you....

nobdysfool said:

And the sum of all this is, some want a measure of independence from God.

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Its not a matter of what we want, it is a matter of what we believe God has revealed.

That is the ongoing echo of the original sin, to be like God, knowing good and evil.

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Actually their knowing good and evil was a result of their sin. Our argument that men do the know the difference between right and wrong and are thus held responsible for their choices has nothing to do with the sin of "wanting to be like God" and to suggest it does is only insulting, and without foundation or merit.

Go on thinking that you have a measure of independence from God. Forget that every breath you take is provided by Him, and should He withdraw it, your vaunted "independence" will evaporate like fog on a sunny day. Go on, we won't stop you....

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That is not the type of independence of which we speak. We are speaking of the will, not the physical aspects of creation and our utter dependance upon Him for survival. But, if that is what you need to do in order to divert the subject, I guess that is your prerogative.

Hammster said:

A lot of carpet bombing.

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You make the accusation that there is no scriptural support for our claims so I took time out of my day to list many of the verses that have been used for generations to provide such support and then you accuse me of "carpet bombing." Revealing.

Which one actually proves libertarian free will?

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Which one of your proof text proves "combatibilism" or "determinism" or whatever title you would like to give your form of human agency?

Ability is applied in the commands, rebukes and in the punishment issued. When a parent demand that their child do something or be severely punished there is NO reason to believe the parent knows the kid is unable to consent to the given demands. The command and rebuke of the parent strongly implies the belief that the child could in fact consent and obey.

And please don't point to the law as proof against that claim. God DOES provide the means for us to fulfill the law...through faith in the ONE who did fulfill the law...to presume otherwise only serves to beg the question. Plus, the law's purpose is not to make us righteous through being fulfilled by us, but to reveal our need for Christ, the very solution provided by God so as to reconcile us for the breaking of the law in the first place.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Its not a matter of what we want, it is a matter of what we believe God has revealed.

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And that still has not been proven in your favor.

Actually their knowing good and evil was a result of their sin. Our argument that men do the know the difference between right and wrong and are thus held responsible for their choices has nothing to do with the sin of "wanting to be like God" and to suggest it does is only insulting, and without foundation or merit.

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Seems that no one can say anything without it being "corrected" by you. The temptation was that they would be like God, and the hook was that they would know good and evil, like God does. Adam and Eve did learn that, but at a great cost. A cost so great that it drove a wedge between them and God, and ruined the fellowship they had with Him. And, then God pronounced the sentence of death on them, as well as other curses, detailed in scripture. To understand what sin does to us, we need to understand what it did to Adam and Eve. Rather than setting them free, it put them in bondage. It corrupted their very natures, and their bodies. That corruption is passed down to their posterity, all the way to us, and our children and their children. To speak of corrupted, bound individuals having "free will" in the sense that you want it, is ridiculous. There is nothing "free" about their wills. Desire in some form is behind all acts of the will. And by desire, I do not mean "instinct". It is rational, conscious decision-making.

That is not the type of independence of which we speak. We are speaking of the will, not the physical aspects of creation and our utter dependance upon Him for survival. But, if that is what you need to do in order to divert the subject, I guess that is your prerogative.

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No diversion going on here from my side, I'm just trying to cut to the heart of the matter, which you have been avoiding for page after page in this thread. The will is not truly free in a corrupted, bound-in-sin individual, and nothing that has been said has disproven that fact.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Which one of your proof text proves "combatibilism" or "determinism" or whatever title you would like to give your form of human agency?

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1. 
   [*] John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
   
   1. Being born again occurs not by the will of man, but of God.
   
   [*]Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
   [*] Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
   [*] Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
   
   1. Predestine is the Greek proorizo, it means...
      1. "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity; to foreordain, appoint beforehand" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
      2. "to destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Webster's New World Dictionary, 1986, p. 1121)
      3. "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Webster's Dictionary, 1828.)
   
   [*] Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
   [*] 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
   
   1. "destined" is the Greek word "tithemei." It means, "to set, put, place; to make; to set, fix establish" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
   
   [*] 2 Thess. 2:13-14, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
   [*] John 10:25-26, "Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
   
   1. John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
   
   [*] John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
   [*] John 6:65, "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."
   
   1. If no one can come to God without the Father granting it to him, then the person is powerless to come to God of his own free will.
   
   [*] Acts 16:14, "And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
   [*] Rom. 12:3, "For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
   [*] 1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
   [*] James 1:18, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures."

Ability is applied in the commands, rebukes and in the punishment issued. When a parent demand that their child do something or be severely punished there is NO reason to believe the parent knows the kid is unable to consent to the given demands. The command and rebuke of the parent strongly implies the belief that the child could in fact consent and obey.

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there are at least two reasons , we are NOT God , and we do not know for certain what the child will do.

And please don't point to the law as proof against that claim. God DOES provide the means for us to fulfill the law...through faith in the ONE who did fulfill the law...to presume otherwise only serves to beg the question. Plus, the law's purpose is not to make us righteous through being fulfilled by us, but to reveal our need for Christ, the very solution provided by God so as to reconcile us for the breaking of the law in the first place.

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I think your missing the obvious point , if salvation were possible by the Law then why GRACE ?

more scripture affirming God's control over men ;

God elects individuals -

1. election is the Greek "eklektos." It is rendered as "elect" and "chosen." Strongs #1588.
2. Matt. 22:14, "for many are called [kletos], but few are chosen [eklektos]."
   1. Kletos, "called, invited."
3. Matt. 22:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect [eklektos]."
4. Matt. 22:31, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
5. Luke 18:7, "now shall not God bring about justice for His elect [eklektos], who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?"
6. Rom. 8:33, "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect [eklektos]? God is the one who justifies;"
7. Romans 16:13, "Greet Rufus, a choice [eklektos]man in the Lord, also his mother and mine."
8. Col. 3:12, "And so, as those who have been chosen [eklektos]of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;"
9. 1 Tim. 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen[eklektos]angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."
10. 2 John 1, "The elder to the chosen [eklektos] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"
11. 3 John 13, "The children of your chosen [eklektos]sister greet you."

want some more ?

nobdysfool said:

And that still has not been proven in your favor.

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I can provide evidence that is sufficent for me and for others to accept the premise, as evidenced by centuries of non-Calvinistic believers. If you care to accept it, great. But please don't set the standard that I must prove something to your satisfication. Or claim because you rejected it, I did not make the case which others would accept as "proof." By that standard no one as ever proven anything regarding our faith and doctrines because there are always some who aren't convinced.

Seems that no one can say anything without it being "corrected" by you

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Uh, that is called debate. I don't correct that with which I agree and those who disagree with me often "correct" what I've said. Isn't that a given?

A cost so great that it drove a wedge between them and God, and ruined the fellowship they had with Him.

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And he sent his son to provide atonement for the world, sent a message to appeal for his enemies to be reconciled, but for some reason Calvinists insist people can't understand and respond to that message of reconciliation because their status of "ENEMY" is just TOO great. So, the very means God as chosen to SOLVE the problem (The Fall, being enemies with God) is insufficient. Why? Because we are enemies of God. There is no biblical support for this view.

And, then God pronounced the sentence of death on them, as well as other curses, detailed in scripture

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Where is the sentence of Total Depravity by which enemies aren't even able to respond to a message sent for the purpose of reconciling enemies?

To understand what sin does to us, we need to understand what it did to Adam and Eve.

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It made them unable to respond to God's appeals to be reconciled? Chapter and Verse?

Rather than setting them free, it put them in bondage.

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Right, so a message of truth meant to give them freedom is insufficient because they are not free? Makes sense.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Ok, stop there. That is OUR view of man's free volitional choices and your continued insistence on my answering what "causes" the will to determine this over that is begging the question because it presumes a deterministic response is required. We can know more define how man's volition works than we can God's, so a system which presumes to define what scripture itself doesn't goes beyond the mystery and into speculative man made logic and conjecture.

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No, the basic problem is radically different. As I've already been through that, with no answer other than a request for information followed by a self-stated, unconsidered rebuff "Stop there" -- that's a serious problem of neglect from this position.

Where only neglect sustains a position, the position falls on consideration.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

I agree, but we are more "LIKE" God (i.e. created in his image) than the animal or the tree which is also a created being. Thus, it is reasonable to presume that our wills (knowing both good and evil) and being held morally accountable for eternity work differently than that of animal instinct. You have not drawn any real distinction between a animal choosing according to his greatest desire (nature) and that of a man making a morally accountable choice.

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A neglect of real distinctions doesn't make them go away.

At this point the attempt to attack another position through neglect of its arguments doesn't seem reasonable. The problems with an independent will have already been exposed. Were there a consideration of what's been neglected, maybe a discussion will ensue. As long as there's an unsupported allegation, "not drawn any real distinction", there's no argument. There's only an absence of consideration.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Whether a nature of any person who makes willful determinations is infinite (uncreated) or finite (created) matters not to its logical possibility. If an all powerful God will to create creatures with the ability to have first cause of their own determinations, in a similar manner that God governs himself, there is nothing within our understanding or within scripture which precludes or denounces such a thought or reason.

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Interesting to me how this sounds. "God [can] create creatures "-- a second cause -- "to have first cause of their own ...".

Only in a highly qualified sense of "first" -- and a qualification of this sort means that the person is not a first cause in the technical sense of the term.

heymikey80 said:

No, the basic problem is radically different. As I've already been through that, with no answer other than a request for information followed by a self-stated, unconsidered rebuff "Stop there" -- that's a serious problem of neglect from this position.

Where only neglect sustains a position, the position falls on consideration.

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What you call "neglect" is only an appeal to mystery, something both of our systems must do at some point on this question, which is what I was attempting to show in the effort to "stop" you in your explanation of God's freedom and your own appeal to mystery.

Whether the free will is eternal or created by an omnipotent being, matters not as to its possibility when one concedes that finite men must appeal to mystery with regard to such freedom.

Were God to make a statement, should we neglect it to preserve this mystery of human will?

"It does not, therefore, depend on human will or effort, but on God’s mercy."

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;

Hammster said:

According to some on here, that doesn't mean what you think it means because Paul is quoting Psalms.

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Yes, some may. However it means what Paul used it to mean in Romans 3. Which in point of fact is what I cited.

Arguing its primary meaning in the Psalms context is fine, but words don't have just one meaning. They mutually modify and affect one another in a context. Paul states what the verse is being used to support (3:9, 19). This is what the Law says to both Jew and Gentile -- to everyone who comes to see the morality of God's Law (and really His Old Testament revelation, which Paul has explained earlier in Romans 3), they will also see that it is written -- we don't satisfy it, aren't righteous according to it, run from God according to it.

Either it means what it says or it doesn't, and shouldn't be in Scripture.

An aside (and a vocabulary lesson), one of my profs joked that "you'll either end up with a world of predestination or a world of prestidigitation."

Hammster said:

Don't you wish your Forum Runner was hot like mine?

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I do. I really do.