Why Can't We Drill in ANWR?

Wolseley said:

But my dear fellow, I never said that drilling in ANWR was a magical solution. I said that since we have oil up there and it belongs to us, why not use what's there? Every little bit helps while we work on alternative methods of energy.

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But once it is drilled, it no longer belongs to "us", but to the oil companies who have the contract. Unless you're a stockholder in the oil company or an employee, I don't see that it helps "us" at all.

Well, it may drive prices down by around 0.5% (barring the speculators bidding it up on other news or OPEC lessening their production by the same amount to keep their profit steady).

Wolseley said:

But my dear fellow, I never said that drilling in ANWR was a magical solution.

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I never said you did. But you do appear to have very unrealistic expectations about what ANWR can do If it makes you feel better, though, your expectations are slightly more reasonable than those of some other participants in this thread.

I said that since we have oil up there and it belongs to us, why not use what's there? Every little bit helps while we work on alternative methods of energy.

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As I explained earlier, assuming standard production rates for a reservoir ANWR's size, you would be increasing the global oil supply by a meager 0.5%. You wouldn't see a significant difference at the pump.

By comparison, if we all made sure our tires were properly inflated, our cars were tuned up, and we didn't drive like leadfoots (leadfeet?), in one day we would save 2-4 times the amount of oil ANWR could produce in one day. That's a not a bad return considering the very little effort required.

Conversely, getting ANWR up to full production rates would take a lot of money and manpower, and result in a very small return (for Joe Consumer, that is -- companies involved in ANWR oil production would make a nice chunk of change). It would be wiser to devote the money and manpower to the development of alternative energy sources instead. Start thinking like a good steward.

aisy_Day said:

But once it is drilled, it no longer belongs to "us", but to the oil companies who have the contract. Unless you're a stockholder in the oil company or an employee, I don't see that it helps "us" at all.

Well, it may drive prices down by around 0.5% (barring the speculators bidding it up on other news or OPEC lessening their production by the same amount to keep their profit steady).

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But thats true of any natural resource under any patch of land, it belongs to the owners of that land or the people to whom they lease it for its extraction, But if all we are going to do with it is let is sit there untapped, it might as well not be there at all. That strikes me as a waste.

allhart said:

Not! Even with a 15k Gov't grant your financing is 60k and like I said for a 200 amp PNL ..... Which is only 40amps in a 20% feed back....... Most Only get 20amps with 125 amp PNL at 65k with a 15k grant. Making fin 50k.
Btw my brother-in-law is a contractor..... Sunnycalsolar...... Those batteries are about 4k to 6k a piece.

Furthermore this is if your house is pointed south and if your roof has enough sq ft

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I went back and checked my email correspondence with my friend, and I was a little off about the price. It was actually 25K for a 3 kW system from SunPower. Still much better than 75K, and it covers their electrical usage.

Funny how things look good on paper and doesnt turnout so well in reality.

Have any of you seen on you- tub hydrogen kits..... Saving 20% in fuel, furthermore our natural gas components..... On the road, for our cars could help..... Unity in diversity helps offset demand.

Also have any of youbheard about compresed air..... Small compact car for the inner city works, but supply and demand can be counter productive in the long or short term.

TheManeki said:

I went back and checked my email correspondence with my friend, and I was a little off about the price. It was actually 25K for a 3 kW system from SunPower. Still much better than 75K, and it covers their electrical usage.

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Constructing and the service/unit cost more than your acknowledging, however; if people get with it we could isolate our circuits. Instead of using PNLS we could use.... Kinda like lighting circuit PNLS( ice cube relays) with a PLC and get 100% power from the sun and our batteries at night.....,but our GovT will not approve of that in their grant monies....nevertheless this will nessarialy cost more in money, however; if someone could buy a house neer a yr round Running creek? You could install a small Gen. And have constant power without batteries back up for night use and it wouldn't matter if the sun was shining or not.

lordbt said:

But thats true of any natural resource under any patch of land, it belongs to the owners of that land or the people to whom they lease it for its extraction, But if all we are going to do with it is let is sit there untapped, it might as well not be there at all. That strikes me as a waste.

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But what happens when one person profits and all the others lose out? If there's a tree in a public park, I'd much rather everyone be able to sit under it than for a logging company to chop it down and a handful of people make a profit. It's under a wildlife reserve, which means it is land that belongs to all Americans. Unless we're all personally going to see profit from this, we shouldn't give it to an oil company.

The middle class was not built by government policy, it's a product of cheap energy and ideas being brought to market in a free market society.

Expensive energy will reduce if not end the middle class in this country.
The government did not invent the steam engine, but it started the industrial revolution and began the middle class. Government did not invent the electric motor but it improved the production of goods and moved products which grew the middle class. Government did not invent the internal combustion engine, nor did they invent the oil fired power plant but these last things built the middle class to the envy of the world.
Government can only hurt the transition to other energy sources, the market is the place where energy changes are made.
Until the next energy source is perfected in the private sector oil is our energy. Not drilling now will result in shipping our jobs offshore and the hit will be born almost totally by the middle class.

allhart said:

Constructing and the service/unit cost more than your acknowledging, however; if people get with it we could isolate our circuits. Instead of using PNLS we could use.... Kinda like lighting circuit PNL with a PLC and get 100% power from the sun and our batteries at night.....,but our GovT will not approve of that in their grant monies....nevertheless this will nessarialy cost more in money, however; if some could by a house neer a yr round Running creek? You could install a small Gen. And have constant power without batteries back up for night use and it wouldn't matter if the sun was shining or not.

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If you're not happy, take it up with SunPower. I'm just reporting what I was told.

allhart said:

Funny how things look good on paper and doesnt turnout so well in reality.

Have any of you seen on you- tub hydrogen kits..... Saving 20% in fuel, furthermore our natural gas components..... On the road, for our cars could help..... Unity in diversity helps offset demand.

Also have any of youbheard about compresed air..... Small compact car for the inner city works, but supply and demand can be counter productive in the long or short term.

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When I was up in Alaska, there was a civilian employee who worked on the base during the winter; he was sort of a sourdough old boy, lived out in the boondocks (which are not hard to reach from anywhere in Alaska), and he had converted his 1975 Dodge pickup truck to run on firewood.

No lie. I don't know how he did it, but he used to putt onto the base with woodsmoke just puffing from a smokestack on the side of the cab, and he got around just fine; I don't think he ever got titanic amounts of speed out of it, but he didn't spend any money on gasoline, that's for sure. It was a bit of an effort to get it going at the end of the day when he was ready to go home, too, but what the heck?

That wouldn't do for everybody, though---if everybody in the country did that, we'd run out of wood faster than we're supposedly running out of oil.

TheManeki said:

If you're not happy, take it up with SunPower. I'm just reporting what I was told.

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Bro they ain't using battery back up for night use and 3kw isn't going to work for a family of five or even four. I don't really care so much if you believe what I say. I work with the stuff first hand and know the costs..... I would put it on my house but don't have the cash or the Fin. to do it, nor does million of other Americans. It's an investment forsure but unless you put in the up front in buying your house.... It's out of pocket expense. The only thing is once Fin. Nessarialy your payment is set..... While other untiltys gradually raise their rate every yr.

Wolseley said:

When I was up in Alaska, there was a civilian employee who worked on the base during the winter; he was sort of a sourdough old boy, lived out in the boondocks (which are not hard to reach from anywhere in Alaska), and he had converted his 1975 Dodge pickup truck to run on firewood.

No lie. I don't know how he did it, but he used to putt onto the base with woodsmoke just puffing from a smokestack on the side of the cab, and he got around just fine; I don't think he ever got titanic amounts of speed out of it, but he didn't spend any money on gasoline, that's for sure. It was a bit of an effort to get it going at the end of the day when he was ready to go home, too, but what the heck?

That wouldn't do for everybody, though---if everybody in the country did that, we'd run out of wood faster than we're supposedly running out of oil.

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The important part isn't how he did it, it's that he tried to do it. People are complaining about gas, but how many people do you know that drive small highly efficient cars? Most people I know drive small SUVs like the Rav4 or whatnot. I know exactly no one that bikes around anymore, and outside of a handful of cities public transit isn't even an option. We need to be moving towards doing all those things instead of selling out a wildlife preserve.

Umaro said:

The important part isn't how he did it, it's that he tried to do it. People are complaining about gas, but how many people do you know that drive small highly efficient cars? Most people I know drive small SUVs like the Rav4 or whatnot. I know exactly no one that bikes around anymore, and outside of a handful of cities public transit isn't even an option. We need to be moving towards doing all those things instead of selling out a wildlife preserve.

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Well there's only 24 hrs in day and the Gov't keeps killing incentives by subsidizing failure, furthermore just like in Alaska far spread not everyone lives in the inner city nor can you take a family road trip in pris or the volt...... And I don't see 18 wheelers running hybrids transporting your goods. Supply and demand is a funny thing......

allhart said:

Bro they ain't using battery back up for night use and 3kw isn't going to work for a family of five or even four. I don't really care so much if you believe what I say. I work with the stuff first hand and know the costs..... I would put it on my house but don't have the cash or the Fin. to do it, nor does million of other Americans. It's an investment forsure but unless you put in the up front in buying your house.... It's out of pocket expense. The only thing is once Fin. Nessarialy your payment is set..... While other untiltys gradually raise their rate every yr.

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No batteries. Excess power goes to the grid, and his account is credited. He still draws from the grid, but typically uses less than he generates. Unfortunately, he doesn't get cash for anything he generates above that.

TheManeki said:

No batteries. Excess power goes to the grid, and his account is credited. He still draws from the grid, but typically uses less than he generates. Unfortunately, he doesn't get cash for anything he generates above that.

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Most familys us-ether energy in the evening..... Using batteries are more efficient, for your cost, however; like I said they can only use 20 amps on a 125amp PNL..... because the electrical regulations. In a 125% full load amps, you can only use 80% so we can only back feed 20% at one time or any given time.until they use what I suggested in my earlier post.... It's dead in the water.... Most inner city homes don't have the sq footage on the roof top to support the full 20% back feed and they don't have the land to convert to solar usage, however; there's a new tech. coming db the photaic surface buy using lasers to make wave solar PNLS making for more amperage per PNL size. Looking better, but the cost still hurts home usage.

allhart said:

Well there's only 24 hrs in day and the Gov't keeps killing incentives by subsidizing failure, furthermore just like in Alaska far spread not everyone lives in the inner city nor can you take a family road trip in pris or the volt...... And I don't see 18 wheelers running hybrids transporting your goods. Supply and demand is a funny thing......

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That's why we need to revamp our infrastructure. People only see short term, so they'd rather pay less now than to save in the long run. Supply and demand doesn't work when people aren't informed about the true nature of things.

The local housing authority( permits) should have all new houses equipped with solar, but right now as the new tech keeps blazing its trails before it makes sense. For a good investment otherwise as the new tech keeps coming forth.... Unessarily making your osystem at that cost, obsolete.....!

Umaro said:

That's why we need to revamp our infrastructure. People only see short term, so they'd rather pay less now than to save in the long run. Supply and demand doesn't work when people aren't informed about the true nature of things.

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Build on what is good and let what is failing fail.... Just in-like what the Obama-care system is doing. They didn't build up they destroyed the system. Change by using us as their litmus test..... At our expense. When we are broke. The only thing that is keeping us afloat temporarily is that the world has the dollar as their currency and the Gov't prints more money. But In- like our states that cannot print their budget short falls are showing the signs of collaps( reality)but the world is all changing.

Btw here in America we haven't produced anything for the world in the last three yrs even for our selves. We just print more money and buy it, that is about to end.

allhart said:

Build on what is good and let what is failing fail.... Just in-like what the Obama-care system is doing. They didn't build up they destroyed the system. Change by using us as their litmus test..... At our expense. When we are broke. The only thing that is keeping us afloat temporarily is that the world has the dollar as their currency and the Gov't prints more money. But In- like our states that cannot print their budget short falls are showing the signs of collaps( reality)but the world is all changing.

Btw here in America we haven't produced anything for the world in the last three yrs even for our selves. We just print more money and buy it, that is about to end.

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But the supply demand system won't work here. Say I sell cars, trucks and SUVs have the highest profit margin, so I'll try to sell as many of those as I can rather than the lower margin electric cars. And by the time oil runs out, I'll be rich and dead. My short term profit is more important than your long term infrastructure, and I'm the one holding all the cards.

Umaro said:

But the supply demand system won't work here. Say I sell cars, trucks and SUVs have the highest profit margin, so I'll try to sell as many of those as I can rather than the lower margin electric cars. And by the time oil runs out, I'll be rich and dead. My short term profit is more important than your long term infrastructure, and I'm the one holding all the cards.

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How Much does it cost to repair electric cars and I hear the battery is to be replaced about Every four yrs, give or take a yr and the cost is 12k...... There isn't any charging stations per demand or enough power on the grid per demand... If you take the 250M cars per oil driven off the road.... You must put it on the grid per oil. Cause and effect!