Do you believe Jesus is God? (2)

he-man said:

I do not believe Jesus is a god, that is why he said

Joh 6:37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father,in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1Co 8:6 But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, for on account of all things, and we by him.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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If you are going to quote me then quote the entire sentence instead of trying to twist my words to reflect something other than what I said. I know you have a lot of practice on taking things out of context and twisting them to fit what you wish but I am formally asking you not to do it to me again.

And to address the above your logic is flawed because being subject is not the same as being unequal. Wives are to be subject to their husbands but that doesn't make them unequal. They share the same essence and are both equally human. Jesus as the Son of God shares His Father's nature and is equally divine.

The Son is subject to the Father but no one has denied this so your point is moot. Jesus is both God and man. In order to be perfect and sinless as a man He must obey and be subject to the Father.

If I as a finite creature have a hierarchy within my life in relation to my roles how much more complex might God in His infinite being be?

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[Jesus equal with God]

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[Took on the form of man]

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[humbled himself to death]

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[Jesus' name is above all others]

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
[every knee will bow]

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[Confessing Jesus as Lord brings glory to God the Father]

All of these points are affirmed within the doctrine of the Trinity so that no one part of Jesus is emphasized to the detriment of the others. As the Son He is divine and obedient just as I as my father's son am human and yet obedient. The only difference is we are finite and incapable of being more than one person.

resistingrexmundi said:

And to address the above your logic is flawed because being subject is not the same as being unequal. Wives are to be subject to their husbands but that doesn't make them unequal. They share the same essence and are both equally human. Jesus as the Son of God shares His Father's nature and is equally divine.

The Son is subject to the Father but no one has denied this so your point is moot. Jesus is both God and man. In order to be perfect and sinless as a man He must obey and be subject to the Father.

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Do you know what a servant means?
Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus shouted for help with a great voice, Eloi, [FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]Eloi, λαμα ζαβαφθανι? which is, being interpreted, "My God why are you so far from [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]helping me?"[/FONT]

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joh 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father,in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1Co 8:6 But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, for on account of all things, and we by him.

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

he-man said:

Do you know what a servant means?

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Yes. But again you are making the same mistake you have already made. Subordination does not mean inequality especially when Scripture says otherwise. We are all supposed to be servants one to another but that doesn't make one unequal to another. As I said Jesus as man and God answers both sides of the issue. He is obedient in His humanity as He has to be in order to remain sinless and He is Lord because of His divinity.

nm

John 15:15

No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.


except for one itsy bitsy detail. I know, I know, you have all heard me refer to my "Father in Heaven".....but I just didn't want you to get confused, after all if I had just said "Father" you might think I was talking about Joseph. So here's the deal. I am here on earth, and then gone, and then back at precise intervals of one billionth of a second. This way, I can say a prayer to myself, answer it, and be back in time for a bagel. Don't worry about it! How do you think them Sanhedrin types could never lay a finger on me! Funny I tell ya, should have seen the look on his face! Anyway, that's why I look like I'm here when I'm there too. After all, who've I got to talk to up there besides myself? Get's lonely I tell ya. That's why I thought I'd come and hang with you guys a bit. Hey! Let me tell you guys another secret....in another two thousand years, they are going to have this thing called the internet, where people can sit and argue hundreds of miles apart...no, really....ah come on johnny, quit your girly giglin' it's true! And they are still going to be arguing about me! Huh, well yeah Pete, they are go...Ah Mary Sweety, I swear I'll keep you out of ALL the writings hun, don't be like that........

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

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1 John 5:7


Game over

Marc15 said:

1 John 5:7


Game over

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That's a late century addition.

However, the "one" could have the same meaning as the "one" in John 10:30, meaning that the three is the same Judge.

On the other hand, 1 John 5:8 says "one in agreement" concerning the Spirit, the water, and the blood and the same could apply to the addition and John 10:30.

Jesus' full divinity and full humanity are evidenced by John 1:1 and John 1:14.

As I read God's Word, the Son came forth from the Father, and is of the same nature as God, and fully Divine.

He is not God, the Father, but the Word of God who is worthy to be honored as God, and through whom we see and hear and know God, personally.

Marc15 said:

1 John 5:7


Game over

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While it is true that this is a later addition to the text, which is why more modern translations do not always include it, Jesus did commission us to baptize in the name of all three showing the unity in authority, purpose and nature. It also shows the hierarchy that is clearly laid out in Scripture with the Son being sent by the Father and the Holy Spirit being sent by both. Each of these, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have a will, purpose and function but they are all one.

Marc15 said:

1 John 5:7Game over

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Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament. The Encyclopedia of Religion The New Encyclopedia Britannica

The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology
To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it. Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins "Origin and Evolution of Religion"

Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord. Historian Arthur Weigall "The Paganism in Our Christianity"

he-man said:

Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament. The Encyclopedia of Religion The New Encyclopedia Britannica

The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology
To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it. Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins "Origin and Evolution of Religion"

Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord. Historian Arthur Weigall "The Paganism in Our Christianity"

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Proof to me Trinity is of pagan origin.

"to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority" Jude 1: 25

"whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior," Titus 3:6

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9

See it says both God and Jesus our are savior, so Jesus must be God.

And it says the Spirit of God and Christ are the same.

Two divine beings - one absolute, without beginning, the other born and changeable, make a very good case for Arianism, not for "orthodox" Trinitarianism.

Jpark said:

On the other hand, John 1 clearly identifies Jesus as God, the Light of men.

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The man Jesus is what the Logos became when it became flesh. The Logos in John 1:1 is not another divine person like the Father at all, but the self-expression of God.

This is the reading that is testified in all ancient translations:

...and God was the word.

The Word was personified in Jesus and God was in Jesus, as Jesus spoke God's words and did God's works.

cubinity said:

This sounds modalist. Is that what you were going for?

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Modalism is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. No I am not going for that.

Marc15 said:

Modalism is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. No I am not going for that.

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Biblically, Modalism and Trinitarianism are equally ridiculous. But theoretically, Modalism has one advantage over the Trinity doctrine: it is conceivable, while the Trinity is NOT.

Actually, Trinitarianism was formed as a combination of Modalism and Tritheism.

Marc15 said:

Proof to me Trinity is of pagan origin.

"to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority" Jude 1: 25

"whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior," Titus 3:6

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9

See it says both God and Jesus our are savior, so Jesus must be God.

And it says the Spirit of God and Christ are the same.

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????
Luke 24:36-39 And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

100% God.

I've been on this planet for four decades and have looked into this in many different ways.

Jesus is it.

he-man said:

Do you know what a servant means?...

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

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But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: - Philippians 2:7

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. - Philippians 2:8

As I have asked before, without being answered upon it, since it is clear that Jesus in these verses "made himself of no reputation" and at a point in time "took upon him the form of a servant", I shall ask yet once more, "What was He before He did this?"

As was asked previously, who is the "God of my fathers" that Paul is speaking about, is it not the very God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Israel? Who is the Husband, who is the Bridegroom?

For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. - Isaiah 54:5

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion. - Jeremiah 3:14

For [as] a young man marrieth a virgin, [so] shall thy sons marry thee: and [as] the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, [so] shall thy God rejoice over thee. - Isaiah 62:5

And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. - Matthew 9:15

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. - Matthew 25:1

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. - Matthew 25:5

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. - Matthew 25:10

And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. - Mark 2:19

But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. - Mark 2:20

And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? - Luke 5:34

But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. - Luke 5:35

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. - John 3:29

Behold! He (Jesus) cometh in the Glory of the Father and His own glory with Thousands and Ten Thousands of His angels, as King of kings and Lord of lords, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, The Author and Finisher of our Faith, the Almighty God. He rides triumphantly forth, with a vesture dipped in blood to claim those that are His, by Creation and Redemption! Who can withstand Him? Lift up your heads O ye gates and the King of Glory will come forth, He shall stand, and give a mighty shout, and He shall roar from on High as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah to render judgment in the earth, for Behold! He shakes not the earth only, but also Heaven! The day is coming burning like an oven, and a fire burns before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him, Who shall be able to stand? Fear Him in awesome wonder and love and give all glory to Him O ye nations, for He comes, and shall not keep silent, Our God, the LORD God that made the Heavens, the earth, the sea and all that in them is, is the ever living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Israel, the God of the whole earth and all things - the I AM. Praise Him. Amen.

As I have asked before, without being answered upon it

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, since it is clear that Jesus in these verses "made himself of no reputation" and at a point in time "took upon him the form of a servant", I shall ask yet once more, "What was He before He did this?"

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A Carpenter's son.