Veganism

Keri said:

I will share my story.

66 pounds ago I was a meat eater and dairy drinker. My blood pressure was through the roof, highest was 159/99. My hormones (estrogen mainly) were so out of whack that I "late" 10 months (no I was no pregnant) and my doctor said that if something didn't change I would most likely have a stroke, heart attack or develop diabetes.

I made the decision the day I went to the doctor and heard this news to cut out meat. Just meat. I still wasn't very active physically. I ate whatever else I wanted. I had a follow up doctors appointment the next week. In 7 days, 10lbs were gone. My blood pressure was already lower. 147/91 though still high.

Two weeks later, my 10 months being "late" were done. I have not had a problem in that area since.

Over the course of the last year, I went from vegetarianism to veganism. It was a slow transistion but the best decision I've ever made.

I have been vegan (dairy and egg free) now for about 6 months, and having cut out meat a year ago.

My last appointment to my doctor about a month ago revealed a blood pressure of 121/78. I am the healthiest that I have been in years. I am active, energetic and a lot slimmer.

You can call veganism unhealthy all you want. I've taken botany classes, studied up on soy protein and the actual effects of the isoflavones in the soy bean. I know what plant combinations to eat in order to get the 8 of 22 amino acids that my body cannot produce in order to get complete proteins.

I understand your passion on this topic. There are many like you who I have encountered. I don't know why you're posting this. Whether you're trying to change vegans/vegetarians minds or if you are just angry over it for some reason.

I posted this in the IJWTS thread. I hope you take these verses into consideration.

From Romans 14
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

and

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

(emphasis mine)




I'm kinda confused by this line. In the beginning you state that vegan diets are unhealthy. But here you are saying they are balanced and healthy...

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Keri said:

I will share my story.

66 pounds ago I was a meat eater and dairy drinker. My blood pressure was through the roof, highest was 159/99. My hormones (estrogen mainly) were so out of whack that I "late" 10 months (no I was no pregnant) and my doctor said that if something didn't change I would most likely have a stroke, heart attack or develop diabetes.

I made the decision the day I went to the doctor and heard this news to cut out meat. Just meat. I still wasn't very active physically. I ate whatever else I wanted. I had a follow up doctors appointment the next week. In 7 days, 10lbs were gone. My blood pressure was already lower. 147/91 though still high.

Two weeks later, my 10 months being "late" were done. I have not had a problem in that area since.

Over the course of the last year, I went from vegetarianism to veganism. It was a slow transistion but the best decision I've ever made.

I have been vegan (dairy and egg free) now for about 6 months, and having cut out meat a year ago.

My last appointment to my doctor about a month ago revealed a blood pressure of 121/78. I am the healthiest that I have been in years. I am active, energetic and a lot slimmer.

You can call veganism unhealthy all you want. I've taken botany classes, studied up on soy protein and the actual effects of the isoflavones in the soy bean. I know what plant combinations to eat in order to get the 8 of 22 amino acids that my body cannot produce in order to get complete proteins.

I understand your passion on this topic. There are many like you who I have encountered. I don't know why you're posting this. Whether you're trying to change vegans/vegetarians minds or if you are just angry over it for some reason.

I posted this in the IJWTS thread. I hope you take these verses into consideration.

From Romans 14
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

and

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

(emphasis mine)




I'm kinda confused by this line. In the beginning you state that vegan diets are unhealthy. But here you are saying they are balanced and healthy...

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benf said:

I agree with your last statement (let people eat what they want), but to say that eating meat leads to heart disease is like saying drinking wine leads to alcohol addiction.

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SneakerPimp53 said:

This isn't a theological topic, and as far as I know the Bible isn't a work designed to deal with optimal nutrition.

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Stravinsk said:

That's not what I asked you. Do you believe the story is true or not? If it is true, then do you believe humans nutritional needs have changed since the time of Daniel?

The topic at hand isn't a theological topic - but you are asking people with theological beliefs - some of which pertain to food.

Is it too hard to answer the simple questions I put forth? If it is, then I don't see why I should bother going further, since it will be apparent to me that your views are already fixed like cement.

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dsrohe said:

Now don't get me wrong. I have zero problem with vegans, vegetarians, or meat eaters. I am just responding to you because you're misrepresenting the story in Daniel.

The story in Daniel has nothing to do with the fact that the king's food had meat in it. It had everything to do with the fact that it was food/meat that had been offered up as sacrifice to idols. Daniel and his friends were obeying God's command to not eat meat that had been offered up to false gods.

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dsrohe said:

They weren't staying away from the king's food because of health reasons--they were staying away from it due to obedience to God. Because of their obedience, God blessed them with good health even if their alternative diet wasn't necessarily the most nutritionally sound diet. It was a miracle that their health thrived--God's power was shown in their thriving health despite their poor nutrition. That is why their care taker was so surprised by how they thrived so much. Their alternative diet was not ideal nor nutritional.

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SneakerPimp53 said:

It's a story about people that ate vegetables for 10 days. Going without meat for 10 days isn't going to kill anyone. Obviously someone that engages in regular vigorous exercise, or has a physically demanding job, would certainly notice the difference. However, someone that lived in a royal court and didn't do much in the way of physical activity certainly could appear healthier after 10 days without consuming proteins and fat they don't need due to inactivity. So sure, the story is true, but it's hardly proof of the merits of vegan diet. What do you think would happen to a professional football player, or a powerlifter, on a prolonged vegan diet?

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SneakerPimp53 said:

Then why not really conserve your time and not post if you have nothing to add to the discussion?

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SneakerPimp53 said:

To avoid taking over an unrelated thread, I thought I'd just start a new one. It always fascinates me to no end when vegetarians/vegans insist on implying that these diets are healthy for you.

There's a reason why Trader Joe's, and every other store that caters to vegans, have huge sections devoted to dietary supplements. Vegans have to work around the lack of complete proteins in non-animal sources through supplements because you're not eating something your body needs. The other solution revolves around eating large amounts of soy products. Soy has been linked to high levels of estrogen and negative impacts on the immune system. It should not be eaten in the quantities that many vegans consume them. There are also a few essential amino acids that the human body cannot process from non-animal sources, as well as B vitamin deficiencies that are a common problem for vegans.

Humans are omnivores and like all such animals depend on both plant and animal sources for our nutritional requirements. If you oppose eating meat for cruelty reasons that's a personal conviction that can't really be argued. On a nutritional level vegan diets are balanced and healthy diets for human beings.

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Stravinsk said:

Interpolation. It isn't about "meat" and it isn't about "idols". I don't see in the text anywhere about Daniel and his men abstaining because it was "offered up to idols". This is something you have simply assumed - it is not part of the text.

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You are correct about the obedience. But let's consider the context. This is a BABYLONIAN King. Not a Jew - and therefore, would not know nor subject himself or his subjects to Jewish food laws. Daniel, however was a Jew - and a Prophet to boot.

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(1) It is not improbable that the food which was offered him had been, in some way, connected with idolatry, and that his participation in it would be construed as countenancing the worship of idols. - Calvin. It is known that a part of the animals offered in sacrifice was sold in the market; and known, also, that splendid entertainments were often made in honor of particular idols, and on the sacrifices which had been offered to them. Compare 1 Corinthians 8:1-13. Doubtless, also, a considerable part of the food which was served up at the royal table consisted of articles which, by the Jewish law, were prohibited as unclean. It was represented by the prophets, as one part of the evils of a captivity in a foreign land, that the people would be under a necessity of eating what was regarded as unclean. Thus, in Ezekiel 4:13 : "And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." Hosea 9:3 : "they shall not dwell in the Lord's land, but Ephraim shall return to Egypt; and shall eat unclean things in Assyria." Rosenmuller remarks on this passage ("Alte u. neue Morgenland," 1076), "It was customary among the ancients to bring a portion of what was eaten and drank as an offering to the gods, as a sign of thankful recognition that all which men enjoy is their gift. Among the Romans these gifts were called "libamina," so that with each meal there was connected an act of offering. Hence Daniel and his friends regarded what was brought from the royal table as food which had been offered to the gods, and therefore as impure."
(2) Daniel and his friends were, doubtless, restrained from partaking of the food and drink offered to them by a regard to the principles of temperance in which they had been educated, and by a fear of the consequences which would follow from indulgence. They had evidently been trained in the ways of strict temperance. But now new scenes opened to them, and new temptations were before them. They were among strangers. They were noticed and flattered. They had an opportunity of indulging in the pleasures of the table, such as captive youth rarely enjoyed. This opportunity, there can be no doubt, they regarded as a temptation to their virtue, and as in the highest degree perilous to their principles, and they, therefore, sought to resist the temptation. They were captives - exiles from their country - in circumstances of great depression and humiliation, and they did not wish to forget that circumstance. - Calvin. Their land was in ruins; the temple where they and their fathers had worshipped had been desecrated and plundered; their kindred and countrymen were pining in exile; everything called them to a mode of life which would be in accordance with these melancholy facts, and they, doubtless, felt that it would be in every way inappropriate for them to indulge in luxurious living, and revel in the pleasures of a banquet.
But they were also, doubtless, restrained from these indulgences by a reference to the dangers which would follow. It required not great penetration or experience, indeed, to perceive, that in their circumstances - young men as they were, suddenly noticed and honored - compliance would be perilous to their virtue; but it did require uncommon strength of principle to meet the temptation. Rare has been the stern virtue among young men which could resist so strong allurements; seldom, comparatively, have those who have been unexpectedly thrown, in the course of events, into the temptations of a great city in a foreign land, and flattered by the attention of those in the higher walks of life, been sufficiently firm in principle to assert the early principles of temperance and virtue in which they may have been trained. Rare has it been that a youth in such circumstances would form the steady purpose not to "defile himself" by the tempting allurements set before him, and that, at all hazards, he would adhere to the principles in which he had been educated.



Taken from Daniel 1:8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.

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Given the fact that vegetables/fruits/beans/seeds etc could ALSO have been "offered up to idols"

...then it is not logical to assume this was the reason for Daniel and his men to abstain.

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The only reason left is that the "King's meats" included things that were unclean for Jews to eat - things like Pork and Shellfish.

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The "moral" of the story isn't that God magically changed Daniel's and his men's nutritional requirements for a short time. The moral of the story is one of health for the human body.

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15At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. 16So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

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