Veganism

SneakerPimp53 · Feb 22, 2011

To avoid taking over an unrelated thread, I thought I'd just start a new one. It always fascinates me to no end when vegetarians/vegans insist on implying that these diets are healthy for you.

There's a reason why Trader Joe's, and every other store that caters to vegans, have huge sections devoted to dietary supplements. Vegans have to work around the lack of complete proteins in non-animal sources through supplements because you're not eating something your body needs. The other solution revolves around eating large amounts of soy products. Soy has been linked to high levels of estrogen and negative impacts on the immune system. It should not be eaten in the quantities that many vegans consume them. There are also a few essential amino acids that the human body cannot process from non-animal sources, as well as B vitamin deficiencies that are a common problem for vegans.

Humans are omnivores and like all such animals depend on both plant and animal sources for our nutritional requirements. If you oppose eating meat for cruelty reasons that's a personal conviction that can't really be argued. On a nutritional level vegan diets are balanced and healthy diets for human beings.

Wren · Feb 22, 2011

Vegan and vegetarian diets can be very healthy without that much effort (protein is not difficult to find in non-meat sources). But this isn't a topic I'm passionate about, so I'll just let Stravinsk post for me, since this is a topic he is passionate about.

acropolis · Feb 22, 2011

Sort of related: It's inconsiderate to expect everyone around you to accommodate your arbitrary dietary restriction. If a food makes you sick then I will be happy to prepare you an alternative for dinner, but if you're just too picky, for whatever reason, then I guess you'll be making yourself some Easy Mac, assuming that also doesn't disagree with your food ethics.

Stravinsk · Feb 22, 2011

I'm busy at the moment but before I respond I'd like to ask SP this:

What are your thoughts on Daniel 1:8-15?

The Hebrew word (vrs 12) translated "vegetables"(NIV) or "pulse"(KJV) is actually a word which means "that which is sown" - things that are sown are seeds, beans, nuts, wholegrains. So it's safe to assume that Daniel and his men were eating these instead of "the king's meats" -and presumably what grows from them (fruit and vegetables).

Is it just a story or is it true? If true, is it your opinion that the human body has changed significantly since then to *need* to eat animal products?

benf · Feb 22, 2011

Stravinsk said:
I'm busy at the moment but before I respond I'd like to ask SP this:

What are your thoughts on Daniel 1:8-15?

The Hebrew word (vrs 12) translated "vegetables"(NIV) or "pulse"(KJV) is actually a word which means "that which is sown" - things that are sown are seeds, beans, nuts, wholegrains. So it's safe to assume that Daniel and his men were eating these instead of "the king's meats" -and presumably what grows from them (fruit and vegetables).

Is it just a story or is it true? If true, is it your opinion that the human body has changed significantly since then to *need* to eat animal products?

I don't think it implies the food itself was the issue

From Barnes notes:

on verse 5

Of the king's meat - The word "meat" here means "food," as it does uniformly in the Bible, the Old English word having this signification when the translation was made, and not being limited then, as it is now, to animal food. The word in the original - בג bag - is of Persian origin, meaning "food." The two words are frequently compounded - פתבג pathebag Daniel 1:5, Daniel 1:8, Daniel 1:13, Daniel 1:15-16; Daniel 11:26; and the compound means delicate food, dainties; literally, food of the father, i. e., the king; or, according to Lorsbach, in Archiv. f. "Morgenl." Litt. II., 313, food for idols, or the gods; - in either case denoting delicate food; luxurious living. - Gesenius, "Lex."

on verse 8

That he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat - Notes, Daniel 1:5. The word which is rendered "defile himself" - יתגאל yı̂thegâ'al from גאל gā'al - is commonly used in connection with "redemption," its first and usual meaning being to redeem, to ransom. In later Hebrew, however, it means, to be defiled; to be polluted, to be unclean. The "connection" between these significations of the word is not apparent, unless, as redemption was accomplished with the shedding of blood, rendering the place where it was shed defiled, the idea came to be permanently attached to the word. The defilement here referred to in the case of Daniel probably was, that by partaking of this food he might, in some way, be regarded as countenancing idolatry, or as lending his sanction to a mode of living which was inconsistent with his principles, and which was perilous to his health and morals. The Syriac renders this simply, "that he would not eat," without implying that there would be defilement.

wpage · Feb 22, 2011

The NT reveals we can eat whatever we want.

acropolis · Feb 22, 2011

It is not what goes in a man's mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of it, unless what's going in is meat, because meat is icky.

Stravinsk · Feb 22, 2011

wpage,acropolis - please do not derail SP's thread by focusing on another issue or mocking it.

benf - that is just about the craziest "apologetic" I have heard on the passage. How one gets from "King's meat (or food)" to "luxurious living" is beyond me and it's huge stretch.

Inkachu · Feb 22, 2011

Eat what you want.

Let me eat what I want.

Bazillion arguments solved.

:takes a bow:

benf · Feb 22, 2011

.Vicky. said:
Eat what you want.

Let me eat what I want.

Bazillion arguments solved.

:takes a bow:

Have you considered a career in middle eastern diplomacy?

Oddish · Feb 22, 2011

I wonder why some meat eaters have to whine about vegetarians and vegans and make the same redundant arguments. Numerous health studies links meat consumption with heart disease.

Live and let live. Let people eat what they want.

Stravinsk · Feb 22, 2011

People - this isn't about "letting" other people "eat what they want" - The OP has thrown a challenge to vegans, here and elsewhere - likinening it to nutritional deficiency consequences common in 3rd world countries and saying that vegans need huge amounts of supplements to thrive, and that generally they are ignoring their natural human heritage of being meat eaters (a point I also do not agree with).

It's not about what Jesus may or may not have said about clean food, it's not about preaching your way of life or forcing it on others.

crishmael · Feb 22, 2011

.Vicky. said:
Eat what you want.

Let me eat what I want.

Bazillion arguments solved.

:takes a bow:

Inkachu · Feb 22, 2011

benf said:
Have you considered a career in middle eastern diplomacy?

In all seriousness, when you come down to it, all the wars of history have been about someone wanting to impose their way on someone else...it's so basic, so juvenile, and so sad.

Inkachu · Feb 22, 2011

Stravinsk said:
People - this isn't about "letting" other people "eat what they want" - The OP has thrown a challenge ...

But we can choose to say "eat what you want, I'll eat what I want, I'm not going to waste time fighting about either one". If other people choose to engage the OP's challenge, more power to em.

Inkachu · Feb 22, 2011

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about standing up for what's right, and defending it to the last. But when someone wants to fight about FOOD? Nah.

benf · Feb 22, 2011

Eyre said:
\ Numerous health studies links meat consumption with heart disease.

I agree with your last statement (let people eat what they want), but to say that eating meat leads to heart disease is like saying drinking wine leads to alcohol addiction.

k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe · Feb 22, 2011

Food fight!!!

Keri · Feb 22, 2011

SneakerPimp53 said:
To avoid taking over an unrelated thread, I thought I'd just start a new one. It always fascinates me to no end when vegetarians/vegans insist on implying that these diets are healthy for you.

There's a reason why Trader Joe's, and every other store that caters to vegans, have huge sections devoted to dietary supplements. Vegans have to work around the lack of complete proteins in non-animal sources through supplements because you're not eating something your body needs. The other solution revolves around eating large amounts of soy products. Soy has been linked to high levels of estrogen and negative impacts on the immune system. It should not be eaten in the quantities that many vegans consume them. There are also a few essential amino acids that the human body cannot process from non-animal sources, as well as B vitamin deficiencies that are a common problem for vegans.

I will share my story.

66 pounds ago I was a meat eater and dairy drinker. My blood pressure was through the roof, highest was 159/99. My hormones (estrogen mainly) were so out of whack that I "late" 10 months (no I was no pregnant) and my doctor said that if something didn't change I would most likely have a stroke, heart attack or develop diabetes.

I made the decision the day I went to the doctor and heard this news to cut out meat. Just meat. I still wasn't very active physically. I ate whatever else I wanted. I had a follow up doctors appointment the next week. In 7 days, 10lbs were gone. My blood pressure was already lower. 147/91 though still high.

Two weeks later, my 10 months being "late" were done. I have not had a problem in that area since.

Over the course of the last year, I went from vegetarianism to veganism. It was a slow transistion but the best decision I've ever made.

I have been vegan (dairy and egg free) now for about 6 months, and having cut out meat a year ago.

My last appointment to my doctor about a month ago revealed a blood pressure of 121/78. I am the healthiest that I have been in years. I am active, energetic and a lot slimmer.

You can call veganism unhealthy all you want. I've taken botany classes, studied up on soy protein and the actual effects of the isoflavones in the soy bean. I know what plant combinations to eat in order to get the 8 of 22 amino acids that my body cannot produce in order to get complete proteins.

I understand your passion on this topic. There are many like you who I have encountered. I don't know why you're posting this. Whether you're trying to change vegans/vegetarians minds or if you are just angry over it for some reason.

I posted this in the IJWTS thread. I hope you take these verses into consideration.

From Romans 14
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

and

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

(emphasis mine)

Humans are omnivores and like all such animals depend on both plant and animal sources for our nutritional requirements. If you oppose eating meat for cruelty reasons that's a personal conviction that can't really be argued. On a nutritional level vegan diets are balanced and healthy diets for human beings.

I'm kinda confused by this line. In the beginning you state that vegan diets are unhealthy. But here you are saying they are balanced and healthy...

Perhaps Today · Feb 22, 2011

.Vicky. said:
Eat what you want.

Let me eat what I want.

Bazillion arguments solved.

:takes a bow:

^^ This

Veganism

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