Suffering Servant

Christsfreeservant

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Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 12:03 a.m. – I woke up around midnight with the song “Jesus, Keep me Near the Cross” going through my mind. I could not get back to sleep, so I got up to hear from God anything he might want to say to me. Before I even got out of bed, the title to this writing (journal entry) came into my mind. I believe the Lord Jesus placed it in my thoughts. As I sat down to hear from the Lord, I prayed, “Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.” Then, I read Romans 15:1-13:

We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name.”

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples.”

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him.”

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

My Understanding: Since the Lord gave me the title, Suffering Servant, I knew this was to be the focus of the message he had for me this morning. As I considered this passage of scripture, thus, against this idea of a (or the) suffering servant, I believe the Lord would have me look at seven aspects of a suffering servant in relation to this scripture passage.

A suffering servant is thus one who:

Bears with the failings of the weak

“The weak” is in reference back to the subject matter of the previous chapter (chap. 14). There “the weak” are described as those whose faith in Jesus Christ does not permit them to eat meat. This is in contrast to “the strong” whose faith and whose understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ allows them to recognize that food has no spiritual significance, with the exception of gluttony, which is considered sinful. In chapter 14 we, as true believers in Jesus Christ, are instructed to not judge our brother or sister in Christ, whether he or she is one who has the freedom to eat meat or is one whose faith does not permit the eating of meat. So, “the weak,” could thus be described as those who are immature in faith or who have not yet reached that point in their spiritual development to where they understand fully the freedoms they have in Christ Jesus (not freedom to sin or to indulge in the sinful nature). So, to “bear with the failings” of the weak is not in reference to allowing or to tolerating sinful behavior, but rather is in reference to allowing for differences of opinion on “disputable matters” (not matters of sin, but matters of personal conscience or preference).

Pleases his neighbor for his good

Here we are instructed that our goal in life should not be to please ourselves, but rather to please our neighbors for their good, to build them up in the Lord. I believe, when we think about pleasing other people, we often think of things we can do that they like or that would make them happy. This could carry over to indulging their sinful behavior or even in joining with them in sin if we don’t have the correct understanding of what this means. To please someone can mean to satisfy or fulfill a need in his or her life in order to bring about true contentment. To satisfy can also mean to convince or assure or even to persuade someone. Then, it says “for his good,” which means for what is right (how it ought to be; moral; decent; upright; blameless). And, it is for the purpose to “build him up.” Many people have the misunderstanding of what this means to where they think we should just go around patting people on the back with no thought to their sin or to their relationship with Jesus Christ. To build is to shape, form, assemble, develop, encourage, etc. So, if we are going to build someone up for his good in order to please him, then this would mean that we are to carefully and lovingly instruct this other believer in the faith, bearing patiently with those whose faith is weak, for the express purpose of helping him grow in faith, develop godly habits, being shaped into the image of Christ, and encouraging obedience, so that the person will be how he ought to be – morally upright, decent, blameless, and obedient.

Follows the example of Christ

Christ Jesus did not please himself, but rather he took upon himself the insults of those who rebuff, snub or scorn God the Father. We, too, if we are truly following Jesus Christ, will face the insults of those who are an offense to Christ and to the gospel by how they live their lives while calling themselves Christians. Even though Jesus Christ was faced with reproach, mocking, slurs against his character, etc., on a regular basis, he remained faithful to the Father and faithful to his purpose and mission in life, which was to suffer for our sake and to die on the cross for our sins so that we could go free. And, we should follow Christ’s example in being willing to share in the fellowship of Christ’s sufferings and to be treated as he was treated in order that we might share the truth of the gospel and that we might build up those in Christ for their good (what is right) so that those to whom we minister as suffering servants will be shaped into the image of Christ, will grow in their faith, will develop godly habits by first of all ridding themselves of sinful behaviors, and will walk in victory, in freedom in Christ, with full hope in God’s promises, and in fellowship with the Spirit of God who is at work within them to bring them to maturity in Christ Jesus.

Has hope through encouragement of scripture

The scriptures were written for our benefit – to instruct, train in godliness, give counsel, direction, encourage, uplift, rebuke, correct and to give hope for the present and the future. As we live out the Christian life, and as we grow in our understanding of what it truly means to follow the example of Christ Jesus in being a suffering servant in order that others might grow in their faith and understanding of who God is and who they are to be in Christ, it will involve much endurance – suffering, withstanding opposition and the trials of life, standing on our faith in the face of rejection, ridicule, false accusations, etc., and continuing, persisting and persevering in our faith even when we don’t understand all that is happening to us or why it is happening, or even though we may not comprehend God’s ultimate purposes in allowing certain things into our lives. The scriptures are God’s words of encouragement to us to remain faithful and to hold fast to our hope in Christ Jesus.

Is given a spirit of unity

“Unity” is a word that is often misunderstood and misapplied to the believer in Jesus Christ. I find that there is a movement in the church and in the government to force unity of mind on the basis of man’s philosophies and teachings, not on the word of God. This kind of unity forces compliance with man and his objectives in order to bring about totalitarian rule, both in the church and in the government of the people. This kind of unity does not allow for differences of opinion or giftings but asks its followers to all become of the same mind as the leader, whether or not that leader is following Jesus Christ or not. This is not the kind of unity being spoken of here in this passage of scripture or throughout scriptural teachings. Speaking on the subject of “disputable matters,” this kind of unity allows for those differences without judgment as to who is right and who is wrong. Also, the kind of unity spoken of in scripture is a united effort to follow the pattern of Christ Jesus with our lives.

Accepts others as Christ accepts us

Christ Jesus accepts us on the basis of his grace - his provision of salvation from sin - and our faith - our heart response to what he did for us in dying for our sins. This heart response of faith is accomplished by us dying to our sin and being raised with Christ to a new life in Christ, free from the penalty, control of and bondage to sin. So, to accept one another as Christ Jesus has accepted us means to accept that other believers, though they may have differences of doctrine and practice (as allowed by God under “disputable matters”), are no different or less than us in any respect other than in the area of disputable matters that don’t matter in eternity as to our genuine relationship with Jesus Christ. So, we need to accept others’ faith as genuine in the same manner or criteria that God requires for acceptance in Christ without judging on differences of opinion on matters that are not critical to our ultimate salvation and destiny in eternity with or without God.

Overflows with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit

The hope of salvation was first given to the Jews and they were the ones who were to then take the message of the gospel to the Gentiles, as it is clear throughout scripture that God intended for Gentiles, too, to hear the good news and to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. So, whether Jew or Gentile, we can have hope in Christ Jesus because of what he did for us in dying on the cross for our sins, if we individually make the decision to place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ by applying to our own lives what he did for us in conquering death, hell, Satan and sin. When we consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ, as evidenced by our lives, we will be filled to overflowing with the hope, joy and peace that is ours through faith in Christ Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit at work within us in making us holy vessels, fit for the Master’s use.

Jesus, Keep Me Near the Cross / Fanny J. Crosby / William H. Doane

Jesus, keep me near the cross;
There a precious fountain,
Free to all, a healing stream,
Flows from Calvary's mountain.

Near the cross, a trembling soul,
Love and mercy found me;
There the bright and morning star
Sheds its beams around me.

Near the cross! O Lamb of God,
Bring its scenes before me;
Help me walk from day to day
With its shadow o'er me.

Near the cross I'll watch and wait,
Hoping, trusting ever,
Till I reach the golden strand
Just beyond the river.

In the cross, in the cross,
Be my glory ever,
Till my raptured soul shall find
Rest beyond the river.
 

Servant.DujmovJr

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A suffering servant is thus one who:

Bears with the failings of the weak

So, to “bear with the failings” of the weak is not in reference to allowing or to tolerating sinful behavior, but rather is in reference to allowing for differences of opinion on “disputable matters” (not matters of sin, but matters of personal conscience or preference).
We should never condone sinful behavior. But to bear with the weaknesses of others, is to also bear with their sins. Some people are able to repent totally, completely and quickly. While others may continue in their sins partially or even completly; and there are many who backslide, even more than once. We should never condone their sinful behavior. However, I don't think that we should give up on them either. We must always be patient,even to those who's weakness is of the flesh. We should gently lead and guide them with love and understanding; Praying for them and patiently waiting for the day when they can ovecome their flesh.


Pleases his neighbor for his good

..... Then, it says “for his good,” which means for what is right (how it ought to be; moral; decent; upright; blameless). And, it is for the purpose to “build him up.” Many people have the misunderstanding of what this means to where they think we should just go around patting people on the back with no thought to their sin or to their relationship with Jesus Christ. To build is to shape, form, assemble, develop, encourage, etc. So, if we are going to build someone up for his good in order to please him, then this would mean that we are to carefully and lovingly instruct this other believer in the faith, bearing patiently with those whose faith is weak, for the express purpose of helping him grow in faith, develop godly habits, being shaped into the image of Christ, and encouraging obedience, so that the person will be how he ought to be – morally upright, decent, blameless, and obedient.
Amen.
May I just add that: our neighbors can be anyone near to us, in all places of our life; work, school, hobbies, church, the line at the grocery store, ect...

Follows the example of Christ

Christ Jesus did not please himself, but rather he took upon himself the insults of those who rebuff, snub or scorn God the Father. We, too, if we are truly following Jesus Christ, will face the insults of those who are an offense to Christ and to the gospel by how they live their lives while calling themselves Christians.
Patience is a virtue; and, in our patience we posses our soul. However, complete passiveness is not always the right choice. Christ said to turn the other cheek; meaning, we should not allow ourseleves to be provoked to anger. However, Christ often rebuked the saducees and pharisees; and when you see the word "hypocritites" it is followed by an "!". Christ also took chords and made a whip and drove out the sellers and traders from the temple, saying, they had made His Father's house aen of theives.

Has hope through encouragement of scripture

As we live out the Christian life, and as we grow in our understanding of what it truly means to follow the example of Christ Jesus in being a suffering servant in order that others might grow in their faith and understanding of who God is and who they are to be in Christ, it will involve much endurance – suffering, withstanding opposition and the trials of life, standing on our faith in the face of rejection, ridicule, false accusations, etc., and continuing, persisting and persevering in our faith even when we don’t understand all that is happening to us or why it is happening, or even though we may not comprehend God’s ultimate purposes in allowing certain things into our lives.
:bow:


Is given a spirit of unity

“Unity” is a word that is often misunderstood and misapplied to the believer in Jesus Christ. I find that there is a movement in the church and in the government to force unity of mind on the basis of man’s philosophies and teachings, not on the word of God. This kind of unity forces compliance with man and his objectives in order to bring about totalitarian rule, both in the church and in the government of the people.
The church, the body of Christ, so desperately needs to unite. Let us have one love, one voice to sing praise to our Father for His love. Let us be united in love, ONE LOVE.
There will always be differencces of opinions :) This is a good thing. In the diversity of life is great joy.


Accepts others as Christ accepts us

.... So, we need to accept others’ faith as genuine in the same manner or criteria that God requires for acceptance in Christ without judging on differences of opinion on matters that are not critical to our ultimate salvation and destiny in eternity with or without God.
While there can still be love and respect for each other, some things can not and should not be tolerated. In example, when Paul withstood Peter because of Peter's hypocrisy in his deaings with the gentiles.


Overflows with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit

When we consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ, as evidenced by our lives, we will be filled to overflowing with the hope, joy and peace that is ours through faith in Christ Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit at work within us in making us holy vessels, fit for the Master’s use.
:bow:



Peace unto you :pray:
Steve
 
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Christsfreeservant

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We should never condone sinful behavior. But to bear with the weaknesses of others, is to also bear with their sins. Some people are able to repent totally, completely and quickly. While others may continue in their sins partially or even completly; and there are many who backslide, even more than once. We should never condone their sinful behavior. However, I don't think that we should give up on them either. We must always be patient,even to those who's weakness is of the flesh. We should gently lead and guide them with love and understanding; Praying for them and patiently waiting for the day when they can ovecome their flesh.

Peace unto you :pray:
Steve

Steve, I thank you for sharing those thoughts. I'd like to address just this one that you shared first. In the context of the passage in Romans 15, from which this message was taken, "weakness" is referring to the idea of those who are weak in faith with regard to those areas we call "disputable matters," i.e. matters of individual preference and/or conscience, but not matters of sin. So, in context, weakness in relation to sin is not being considered here.

Now, to respond to what you said about those believers in Jesus Christ who are still giving in to the weakness of the flesh, i.e. to sin. You are correct in stating that we should not condone their sin. And, you are right when you say that we should never give up on them coming to full repentance. We should always hold out the faith to believe that they will turn and return to genuine repentance and faith and obedience to Jesus Christ. So, we are agreed to this point, I believe.

Nonetheless, your comment gives an appearance of a level of acceptance and/or tolerance of sin in believers in Jesus Christ, and that should never be. When you state that some people are "able" to repent completely and immediately while others may continue in their sins partially or completely suggests, to me, that you believe that those who don't repent completely and immediately are somehow "less able" to do so, which sounds, to me, almost as though you are excusing their behavior. The bible is clear that if someone says he has turned his heart over to Christ and yet he doesn't repent at all, he is not a true believer in Jesus, and in fact, he is a liar. If there is only partial repentance knowingly and willfully at the onset of one's belief in Jesus Christ, then I would suggest that person also is not sincere in his reckoning of himself as dead to sin but alive to Christ.

It is true that as believers in Jesus Christ we may go through a time of rebellion and backsliding and only God truly knows our hearts to know if we are in genuine relationship with him or not, yet I do know his word teaches much on the importance of continuing in our faith and enduring, persevering and enduring to the end in order to have the process of salvation completed within us when Jesus Christ returns. In other words, many people are going to say "Lord, Lord," on that day and he is going to respond back, "I never knew you!" Ouch! BIG TIME! FOR ETERNITY!

So, I would caution against anyone thinking that a prayer of salvation that is not followed by repentance and obedience still guarantees him life ever lasting in heaven. As you said in your other comments, Jesus took sin seriously, which is why he spoke to the Pharisees as he did, and why Paul spoke to Peter as he did. So, I would be cautious about the idea of gently leading and guiding with love and understanding those who claim to be in Jesus Christ and yet are living in open rebellion to God and are not willing to repent. We cannot make allowances for this or excuse it in any way. Yes, we should exercise gentleness and respect in how we approach people in this condition, but that does not mean weakness of conviction or hesitancy to let them know that what they are doing is wrong and that they need to repent and get their lives right with Jesus.

I went through a time of rebellion (on and off) in my Christian life when I was giving in to the flesh and sin with full knowledge of what I was doing and that it was wrong, and I can tell you that it would have meant the world to me if another believer in Jesus Christ would have loved me enough to tell me the truth and to not sugar-coat it, and then to care enough to follow-through to make sure that I was going in the right direction and to care enough about me to see that I got there, as much as was within his or her power to do so. Yet, that was not my experience. The only time believers in Jesus tried to correct me pretty much was when I was walking in faith and obedience to the Lord because they thought I was too serious about my relationship with Jesus and they would have felt more comfortable if I was sinning willfully just a little, I think.

I don't know your heart or what you intended by your comments here, so I am not in any making a judgment. I am just sharing with you how what you said hit me, and I want to give you feedback to give you the opportunity to explain yourself further and/or to reevaluate your stance on the subject of professing believers in Jesus Christ continuing in sin willfully, with full knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, and with a refusal to repent. I believe very much there are strong words in scripture with regard to how this should be addressed, and also to what our response should be to those who take such a stance of knowingly and willfully living in rebellion once they have come to the knowledge of the truth. We just need to be so careful that we don't in way shape or form give the impression to that person (s) that it is ok to continue that way and still have the promise of eternity in heaven with God and/or to give the impression that we "understand" their weakness to the point to where we "bear", i.e. tolerate, stand, stomach, accept, carry the weight of, and/or allow for their continued rebellion, which is the meaning of the word "bear."
 
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Servant.DujmovJr

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Steve, I thank you for sharing those thoughts.

Nonetheless, your comment gives an appearance of a level of acceptance and/or tolerance of sin in believers in Jesus Christ, and that should never be. When you state that some people are "able" to repent completely and immediately while others may continue in their sins partially or completely suggests, to me, that you believe that those who don't repent completely and immediately are somehow "less able" to do so, which sounds, to me, almost as though you are excusing their behavior.

It is true that as believers in Jesus Christ we may go through a time of rebellion and backsliding and only God truly knows our hearts to know if we are in genuine relationship with him or not,

So, I would caution against anyone thinking that a prayer of salvation that is not followed by repentance and obedience still guarantees him life ever lasting in heaven. As you said in your other comments, Jesus took sin seriously, which is why he spoke to the Pharisees as he did, and why Paul spoke to Peter as he did. So, I would be cautious about the idea of gently leading and guiding with love and understanding those who claim to be in Jesus Christ and yet are living in open rebellion to God and are not willing to repent.

I went through a time of rebellion (on and off) in my Christian life when I was giving in to the flesh and sin with full knowledge of what I was doing and that it was wrong, and I can tell you that it would have meant the world to me if another believer in Jesus Christ would have loved me enough to tell me the truth and to not sugar-coat it, and then to care enough to follow-through to make sure that I was going in the right direction and to care enough about me to see that I got there, as much as was within his or her power to do so.

I don't know your heart or what you intended by your comments here, so I am not in any making a judgment. I am just sharing with you how what you said hit me, and I want to give you feedback to give you the opportunity to explain yourself further and/or to reevaluate your stance on the subject of professing believers in Jesus Christ continuing in sin willfully, with full knowledge that what they are doing is wrong, and with a refusal to repent. "

This is really nice. I am enjoying this conversation alot :)

By no means do I have an acceptance of sin. The word tolerance is a word that would be used only in certain insatances. I do believe that there are those who come to the knowledge of Christ and are "less able" to repent quickly and completely. I will explain more.

It is not the prayer of salvation that I think leads to everlasting life; it is merely to believe in the Christ :) It is the gift of God. Every man that comes into the world, has the Light of Christ. Just because one recieves everlastinge life does not mean that it will be one of joy. (but this discussion is a little off-topic for this thread) Maybe you are referring to my thread "The Light of men"?

I have had the same desires, of wanting a fellow believer to reach out to me with love and compassion, to lead me and guide me in times of weakness and sorrow. That is what Christ is speaking of in the parable; Some will say, "Lord, Lord, let me in"; and the Lord will say, "I know you not." Christ is speaking to the christians who look down their self-rightous noses at "sinners".

I can see that, it is in your statement of "open rebellion" where you have misunderstood me. I could have been more clear. I often times forget that many Christians come from a life that is; not filled with as much sin as mine has been :( Often times people like to consider their own life struggles, to have been more difficult than someone else's. I have learned just the opposite. There is a lot of suffering in this world. Not everyone comes from the same place.
So, as I stated; to explain further;
To live in "open rebellion" and to "be weak" is not the same thing. I was previously addicted to drugs. So, when I say; "torlerance" and "less able" it is from my own experiences. To be tolerant to sin is not good. To have tolerance with someone who is weak, is to be patient with them. I remember so many times crying out to God; with painful tears, wanting to be set free. So, it is from my experience that there are those who love God and know the the truth, yet the truth has not set them free, yet. This is what I mean when I say that with some people we should be patient, even though they are living in sin beause of weakness; which is different than living in open rebellion.
This is what Christ is speaking of in that parable you mentioned. Even though, some teach that if you don't work you don't eat; Christ gave to the poor without judgement, Christ said, not only to feed the hungry but if our enemy is hungry we are to feed him as well. We are to visit and take care of the sick. We are to visit those in the prisons. So many christians disdain people who are in prison, wishing and hoping for the worst of worst be bestowed on them. These are the christians that Christ is speaking of when He says, "I knew you not."
Drug addidicts, alcohoics, prostitutes, the weak, the poor and those in prison, all should have love, help and comfort bestowed on them by christians. It is not our place to judge. That is different than tolerating open rebellion among fellow christians.

I am enjoying this conversation with you so much :)

Peace unto you :pray:
Steve
 
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Christsfreeservant

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The word tolerance is a word that would be used only in certain insatances. I do believe that there are those who come to the knowledge of Christ and are "less able" to repent quickly and completely. I will explain more.


I disagree, but we will continue...

It is not the prayer of salvation that I think leads to everlasting life; it is merely to believe in the Christ :) It is the gift of God. Every man that comes into the world, has the Light of Christ.


Please explain what you mean here by "Every man that comes into the world has the Light of Christ." The Bible says that we are born into sin and that we are separated from God because of our sin and that there is no one righteous (outside of Christ). This is our condition when we come into the world. It is only through genuine faith (repentance and obedience) in Jesus Christ as Lord (Master) and Savior (from the penalty and the control of sin) of our lives do we have the Light of Christ in our lives.

I have had the same desires, of wanting a fellow believer to reach out to me with love and compassion, to lead me and guide me in times of weakness and sorrow. That is what Christ is speaking of in the parable; Some will say, "Lord, Lord, let me in"; and the Lord will say, "I know you not." Christ is speaking to the christians who look down their self-rightous noses at "sinners".


Let us look at this in context:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt. 7:15-23

Jesus is mainly addressing false teachers and hypocrites who pretend to be one thing but they are really the opposite of what they profess. He said that the fruit of these people will show what or who they really are. Then, his address encompasses more than just false teachers but includes anyone who calls him Lord and who claims to serve him and to do things in his name and yet does not obey him. The criteria here for those who truly have Jesus as Lord in their lives is that they obey the Lord and follow his will for their lives. So, your assessment of this passage of scripture does not fit the context.

So, as I stated; to explain further;
To live in "open rebellion" and to "be weak" is not the same thing. I was previously addicted to drugs. So, when I say; "torlerance" and "less able" it is from my own experiences. To be tolerant to sin is not good. To have tolerance with someone who is weak, is to be patient with them.


I am not without sympathy to your plight nor am I looking my nose down on you, for I, too, am a sinner, but a sinner saved by grace, and only by grace. Yet I think you are excusing lack of repentance by calling certain sins "weakness" as opposed to "open rebellion." I believe that is a lie of Satan, and here is why. If you know that what you are doing is wrong, and you know that you need to change, and even though you may cry out to God and you may feel in your emotions a desire to change, if you continue in your sin with full knowledge that you are continuing to sin, and especially if you excuse it away by calling it "weakness" instead of calling it "rebellion," then you are doomed to continue in your sin and to excuse it away by calling it something else.

I read something in a book where a pastor gave an illustration of a man struggling with adultery or inappropriate contentography yet he continued in his sin and wondered why God didn't help him to stop when he cried out to God for help. The pastor then began to push a book across the table all the while praying to God for God to stop the book from falling off the edge of the table. The pastor kept pushing the book and he kept calling out to God to not let the book fall, but the book fell because it followed the law of gravity. The moral of the story is that if you truly want to not be addicted to sin, you have to do more than cry out to God for help. You have to stop sinning, you have to come clean (get help somewhere), you must yield to Jesus Christ in absolute and total surrender and obedience to his commands, and you must walk forward in his grace, never to go back. I know from my own experience that this can be done, but only in the power of the Spirit of God working within you as you cooperate with God in doing what he requires of you.

If you continue to excuse away your addiction by calling it a "weakness" that must be tolerated and sympathized with, then you will never change, and that is the saddest thing of all and to be pitied for sure. So, go get help! Stop sinning! Yield to God in full surrender and obedience, and go forward (not back) in the strength, grace and forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ and his power at work within you "to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy" (Jude 1:24).
 
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I disagree, but we will continue...



Please explain what you mean here by "Every man that comes into the world has the Light of Christ." The Bible says that we are born into sin and that we are separated from God because of our sin and that there is no one righteous (outside of Christ). This is our condition when we come into the world. It is only through genuine faith (repentance and obedience) in Jesus Christ as Lord (Master) and Savior (from the penalty and the control of sin) of our lives do we have the Light of Christ in our lives.
John 1:3-4 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (once again I think that this is off-topic for this thread, but hey, it's your thread) If you want to undestand more of what I am saying, you can read "The Light of men" in the deeper fellowship forum. Or, you can just keep the questions running in Your thread.


Let us look at this in context:

Matt. 7:15-23
Jesus is mainly addressing false teachers and hypocrites who pretend to be one thing but they are really the opposite of what they profess.
In the parable that you quoted Christ was speaking of false prophets.
However, I was speaking of a parable that is similiar, so I think we may have been speaking of two different parables. I believe that mistake was mine. The parable I was thinking of is:
Matthew 25:31-46 (I type really slow, so I won't qoute the whole thing)
Matthew 25:42-43 for I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
So, taking this in context, Christ is clearly speaking about not taking care of those who are in need; no matter what their spiritual state is. I do believe the mix up in the two parables was mine.


I am not without sympathy to your plight nor am I looking my nose down on you, for I, too, am a sinner, but a sinner saved by grace, and only by grace. Yet I think you are excusing lack of repentance by calling certain sins "weakness" as opposed to "open rebellion." I believe that is a lie of Satan, and here is why. If you know that what you are doing is wrong, and you know that you need to change, and even though you may cry out to God and you may feel in your emotions a desire to change, if you continue in your sin with full knowledge that you are continuing to sin, and especially if you excuse it away by calling it "weakness" instead of calling it "rebellion," then you are doomed to continue in your sin and to excuse it away by calling it something else.
Appearantly you have no understanding of the power of a drug addiction. Your example of a man struggling with a inappropriate content addiction is by no means a comparision to a drug addiction. While any addiction can be powerful, drugs and alcohol often take more of a fight. It is this fight that I speak of. Even though the desire to change is present; the willpower needed is a willpower of great force. Change does not happen overnight. It is only with love, patience and understanding that you can help someone overcome an addiction. It is all too easy to dismiss your lack of understanding about this as a lie of satan. I have helped people with drug addictions, I know what I am saying. The lack of understanding, love and patience is what dooms people who seek help from christians who have none of these. You spoke of how you had hoped for someone to have had love, patience and understanding with you, yet you do not seem to posses it for others. Having patience with someone is not condoning their sin; it is simply loving them while they are fighting to change.



If you continue to excuse away your addiction by calling it a "weakness" that must be tolerated and sympathized with, then you will never change, and that is the saddest thing of all and to be pitied for sure. So, go get help! Stop sinning! Yield to God in full surrender and obedience
Wow! This is very presumptious on your part. I am not living in sin and I have long since gotten over my addiction, thank you very much!
Once again I must point out that while you expressed a desire for compassion, you have none to give. This is what is wrong with the world. Everyone wanting to judge the other and no one giving unconditional love. What is wrong with giving love to even the sinners? Did not Christ teach to do so?

Peace unto you :pray:
Steve
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Steve, I apologize that I misread what you said on your present status with regard to drug addiction. I acknowledge and receive that you are not presently drug addicted - praise God for that! Nonetheless, I do still believe that you, in general, are excusing away drug addiction as a "weakness" rather than calling it what it is - sin. I see that we fundamentally differ on several points here, so I see no value in continuing this conversation. I am very happy to hear that you are no longer addicted to drugs, yet, as I stated, I do have the same concerns with regard to anyone who would make allowances for certain sins by calling them "weaknesses" and to infer that they are to be included in the category of the spiritually weak with regard to "disputable matters." So, let's say we don't agree here and leave it at that. Sincerely, Sue
 
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Servant.DujmovJr

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Nonetheless, I do still believe that you, in general, are excusing away drug addiction as a "weakness" rather than calling it what it is - sin. I see that we fundamentally differ on several points here, so I see no value in continuing this conversation.
....yet, as I stated, I do have the same concerns with regard to anyone who would make allowances for certain sins by calling them "weaknesses" and to infer that they are to be included in the category of the spiritually weak with regard to "disputable matters." So, let's say we don't agree here and leave it at that. Sincerely, Sue

Thank you for your time and conversation, I have enjoyed our discussion.
However, I would like to clear up one not so little thing before we end the conversation.

I am not condoning sin; nor am I trying to say that sin is not sin. God forbid!

What I am saying is that some sins, in example; Peter's hypocrisy in his dealings with the Jews and the gentiles, are the type of sin which could be classified as open rebellion. Paul was right in dealing with it in the way that he did.

There are other sins that are brought about by one's spiritual weakness. Whether it be because of depression, childhood abuses that have been suffered or any other number of circumstances. Alcoholism and drug addiction, these are two examples of sin that should be dealt with in a more patient and loving way. Not condoning the sin, but giving unconditional love while trying to help in the recovery process.

There is a fine balance that is needed between tough love and unconditional love. Too much tough love, in example; merely saying, "You are sinning! Stop! You need to go get help!". These kinds of things will only drive some one away; When what they are seeking is love and understanding. Unconditional love without the acknowledgment of the sin and the wrong in it; leaves the one trying to help as an enabler.
It takes great care and understanding to help people who have these weaknesses. Addictions are weaknesses; but, they are sin nonetheless.
I have enjoyed our discussion :)
Thank you
Peace unto you :pray:
Steve
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Steve, I appreciate your sentiments. I agree that there needs to be a balance between tough love and unconditional love. Yet, we should never tolerate or placate sin, and we should never yield to its control over our lives once we have come into relationship with Jesus Christ who died so that we could go free. And, we should not be patient with sin, but yes, patient with the sinner. We should show God's love and his grace, yet to those who know the truth and know that what they are doing is wrong and in fact, it has become an addiction, then tough love must come into play if we want our loved one to no longer be addicted. It does not mean we are harsh or unloving or unkind, it just means that we have to take a tough stance on sin as God does and we need to show people, that although we love them and we will certainly be there to help, give guidance, etc. while they are going through the process of healing and recovery, that we will also use tough love to help them to not continue in their sin. My concern is that if you call sin a weakness and you treat it as an illness instead of sin that the people you might be trying to help you might actually be enabling them to continue in their sin. I was abused severly as a child. It had its impact on me. I escaped through addiction. Yet, I knew what I was doing was wrong. I did not have to sin just because I had been abused. I didn't need to escape just because I had been abused, because Jesus died to set me free. I needed help and I needed someone to lovingly tell me to stop doing what I was doing, to turn (repent), and to go the other direction, and to care enough to show me how to do that, and that is what I am talking about here. I know the pain of addiction to sin from personal experience and I know the hopelessness of it all. And, I just wish someone would have loved me enough to see my condition and to lovingly confront me with my sin yet be there, too, to walk me to victory, yet not in a way that would placate or tolerate continued sin. When Jesus sees us sinning he says, "Stop! Yield the right-of-way to me, and then go forward in my grace, forgiveness and love." This is the meaning of repentance, and this is what Jesus requires of us. And, this is the most loving thing I can tell someone who is addicted to sin. I know the person cannot do this on his or her own, so I say "get help" so that you don't ever go back. He or she needs someone to walk with him or her through the process, but never to console sin or to excuse it away or to call it something else. I care deeply for those who are caught in the web of sin addiction and my heart aches for them to be free, yet I know that freedom will only come as we stop, yield, and then move forward under the control of the Holy Spirit instead of the control of sin.
 
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