U.K. plan would allow same-sex unions in church

BowTied said:

What SHOULD be done, legislatively, judicially, and any other way that presents itself, is that ANYTHING that is not one man-one woman should be declared exactly what it is: a perversion and degeneracy. NO sodomitic "marriage," NO civil unions, NO domestic partnership. This is all specious bovine excrement.
If MARRIAGE were outlawed or abolished tomorrow, the bedrock of the family that is the foundation of any society or culture, regardless of faith, religion, or whatever you want to call it, THAT would rock the world. Anthropologically-speaking, EVERY culture and society has relied on families as their basis, with male-female MARRIAGE at its foundation. Now, if sodomites were GONE from the world tomorrow, society and civilization would not only persist, it would thrive and expand.

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There have always been same sex couples, I'm not sure what you're babbling about the issue on this thread is that the UK plans to bow out of telling churches that the can't perform a specific wedding ceremony. You can be anti gay all you want - why would you want a government entity to define for you what you can and can't do in your house of worship when it comes to providing religious services? They aren't REQUIRING weddings to be performed, just saying they can.

As for what marriage looks like anthropologically:

Anthropologists recognize marriage as a way to “describe how different societies organize and understand mating and its consequences”. Anthropology studies what is and what was... it doesn't define what SHOULD BE, nor does it view any specific family type as the "foundation" of all cultures.

BowTied said:

Now, if sodomites were GONE from the world tomorrow, society and civilization would not only persist, it would thrive and expand.

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And if bigoted, hateful fundamentalist Christians were gone tomorrow, the world would be far far better.

BowTied said:

“The attitudes of society will change. Pleaselive long enough to be here to see it."

-Joel Burns-
Fort Worth City Councilman for the "It Gets Better" Project

Joel Burns? Great, quote a leftist politician who's queerer than a football bat!​

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Do you know what the "It Gets Better" campaign is?

BowTied said:

“The attitudes of society will change. Pleaselive long enough to be here to see it."
-Joel Burns-
Fort Worth City Councilman for the "It Gets Better" Project
Joel Burns? Great, quote a leftist politician who's queerer than a football bat!​

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You say "leftist" and "queer" like they're bad things to be.

David. Bisexual Christian Socialist.

Let’s not get too far out of hand here. This is a discussion forum. We need to stay focused on our views but not hateful words to one another. BowTied and Jase talk about ridding people off the planet. We will not get anywhere by doing these kind of things. Only in fact it will make others more upset.

We have to remember we live under the grace of Christ and that as Romans 3 For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, but we are justified freely in the redemption of Christ Jesus.

To me this issue is not dealing with prejudice or Anti Gay. I have lived in Northern Calif as well as Southern. I’ve been to San Francisco. Was a big fan of the 49ers in the days of Joe Montana and Steve Young. I was young back then. Some guys did try to pick up on me. I told them I was not interested in that I was not threatened or called names. And I would not call them names either. I don’t believe the Bible supports same sex relationships. But still consider they are people as well. It is what they have chosen to do. You may share with them about Jesus. We are not taught to condemn people.

But we still need to let others know what God stands for. We try to share to people about Jesus. And it is up to each person to decide on that. Just as when I was told I too had to decide.
The Bible says “Do not Fight Evil with Evil but Fight Evil with Love.” In most Church sermons I have seen have not much to do with the Gay lifestyle. It is that obvious sin that we should already know. If one is struggling with same sex desires they should inquire of Godly counseling. God is like a doctor. When we have troubles but keep them to ourselves it won’t get fixed. Going to God about these things is giving God our own problems. It is what God wants us to do. For Jesus said “Whoever is tired and weary place your burdens upon my yoke and I shall give you rest.” Jesus is willing to carry them for us. But still must understand God is a loving God with reason for what he does.

I personally don’t like Government support for same sex unions and or marriage. But I am not fighting this. They will do what they want to do. But to bring this to the Christian Churches has brought this to God. But this is not the burdens; God is talking about in the House of God. Same sex couples want to get married and blessed. So to say no to this is not because of Prejudice or Antigay. The Churches are supposed to keep what God has written upheld in the Church because a Church does not want to stand before God and God will say to them. “Why did your Church allow same sex marriage when you have been told I am against same sex relations? How did you assume on your own behalf that I supported same sex marriage that would be the opposite commandment of what I have said about being together in bed?

I would like to use this example to see what you think. Let’s suppose there was a girl at school 10 years old. She told you she was going to her friends. But she made a friend of a man in his 40s. This looks bad already. They go to a local Church that will marry any couple, who will sign, gender or age does not matter. He got her to marry him.

What is wrong with this picture? She is well underage. He is an adult. He says He loves her. She says she loves Him.

The man brings the daughter to your house. According to law a man of my age could not have anything to do with your daughter in these regards. But a local Church got us married. You can call this statutory rape. You can call this molestation. But since we are married now we have made it right. The man says “If you can find one scripture in the Bible that says a man at my age can’t marry a ten year old girl then I will let her go. But if you can’t find one then God must be open to this for God has not specifically said this.” The man takes your daughter across the country. Because God did not specifically say this you would sit back and do nothing?
Well nothing to do with my 10 year old daughter she is married. Legally that guy made it right even to God for God not saying anything about this. Sure God has said not to do certain things with kids but marriage was not one of them. But you know from reading the Word of God that what He did was wrong in God’s Eyes. A Church gave him permission. Marriage seemed to make things alright. That’s your daughter and she is with a man who is 4 times older than she is. She has not been out in the world. She can’t even get pregnant yet. Did God have to tell us that Adults can’t marry young kids that we could assume it is ok as long as God did not say this?

God did not need to say anything about same sex marriages because He is already against the sexual aspect of that in a relationship even without sex would be holding hands and cuddling. God has never given a green light for same sex marriage. If there is a green light it is from the Gay Lesbian Transsexual Bisexual support to give this approval. The Church can’t give the green light because God has not given the Church that right.

Any Church that allows same sex has acted upon their own behalf. If this happens God will be unpleased both at the same sex couple and the Church for allowing this. If same sex couples choose to marry at least have fear of God. Get married not in a Christian Church that Jesus is supposed to represent. God is Holy. God is pure. Don’t tempt God on this one. . The Holy Spirit can see the sin but will not in any way or forms participate in the sin. We all have sinned in those moments the Holy Spirit stood back. Then told us we are doing wrong in God’s eyes and to stop. That’s what the Holy Spirit will do to correct us from our transgressions.

There are some flaws in your argument that need to be addressed. Until you quit using these strawman arguments, this will never go anywhere.

PolarQuest said:

The Bible says “Do not Fight Evil with Evil but Fight Evil with Love.” In most Church sermons I have seen have not much to do with the Gay lifestyle.

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There is no such thing as the "gay lifestyle" anymore than the heterosexual lifestyle. Gay is an orientation - it refers to one being predisposed to be attracted to members of the same sex. It says nothing of their behavior, lifestyle, relationships, etc. There are plenty of celibate gays, and gays married to women.

It is that obvious sin that we should already know. If one is struggling with same sex desires they should inquire of Godly counseling. God is like a doctor. When we have troubles but keep them to ourselves it won’t get fixed. Going to God about these things is giving God our own problems. It is what God wants us to do. For Jesus said “Whoever is tired and weary place your burdens upon my yoke and I shall give you rest.” Jesus is willing to carry them for us. But still must understand God is a loving God with reason for what he does.

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Many many gay Christians have done just that. Several posters on this very board have asked God for help regarding being gay for decades. God has chosen not to help a single one of them (there is no reliable evidence any gay has ever changed their orientation by "praying the gay away"). So we can assume God doesn't have a problem with them being gay, and has no intention of ever changing it even if he does.

The Churches are supposed to keep what God has written upheld in the Church because a Church does not want to stand before God and God will say to them.

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God did not write anything. The Bible was written by humans, translated by humans, compiled by humans. There is zero proof that what the Bible says regarding certain behaviors was ever approved by God. The Israelites wrote down what they believed God wanted them to do and how they should live, in the same way that Muslims believe Allah orders them to kill or convert the infidels. This is why we have the Old Testament condoning stoning children and rape victims.

“Why did your Church allow same sex marriage when you have been told I am against same sex relations? How did you assume on your own behalf that I supported same sex marriage that would be the opposite commandment of what I have said about being together in bed?

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Once again, God never claimed he is against same-sex relationships. Certain Biblical authors claimed he was against pagan idol worship, which often involved same-sex behavior - but not a single consensual, non-pagan related same-sex account is EVER listed in the Bible. And Jesus himself never said a word about it.

And I'm quite confident God will be way more ticked off at all the self-righteous conservative Christians who continue to speak on his behalf and spread hate and bigotry in his name. At least gays are following a biological state that can't be controlled and God made them born with. Christians have no excuse for their blatant hate and hypocrisy.

Don't forget - who got chastised the most by Jesus - the prostitute or the self-righteous conservative religious folk of the day? The latter of course. So too will conservative Christians be judged.

I would like to use this example to see what you think. Let’s suppose there was a girl at school 10 years old. She told you she was going to her friends. But she made a friend of a man in his 40s. This looks bad already. They go to a local Church that will marry any couple, who will sign, gender or age does not matter. He got her to marry him.

What is wrong with this picture? She is well underage. He is an adult. He says He loves her. She says she loves Him.

The man brings the daughter to your house. According to law a man of my age could not have anything to do with your daughter in these regards. But a local Church got us married. You can call this statutory rape. You can call this molestation. But since we are married now we have made it right. The man says “If you can find one scripture in the Bible that says a man at my age can’t marry a ten year old girl then I will let her go. But if you can’t find one then God must be open to this for God has not specifically said this.” The man takes your daughter across the country. Because God did not specifically say this you would sit back and do nothing?
Well nothing to do with my 10 year old daughter she is married. Legally that guy made it right even to God for God not saying anything about this. Sure God has said not to do certain things with kids but marriage was not one of them. But you know from reading the Word of God that what He did was wrong in God’s Eyes. A Church gave him permission. Marriage seemed to make things alright. That’s your daughter and she is with a man who is 4 times older than she is. She has not been out in the world. She can’t even get pregnant yet. Did God have to tell us that Adults can’t marry young kids that we could assume it is ok as long as God did not say this?

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2 flaws with your argument. 1) The issue here is consent, of which a 10 year old can't give. Gays do not hurt anyone and have no issue of consent. 2) The Bible does allow this type of behavior. Most women in Biblical days were married between 10 and 12, without any say in the matter. The men were usually much older and often had multiple wives. Never did God disapprove of their behavior.

God did not need to say anything about same sex marriages because He is already against the sexual aspect of that in a relationship even without sex would be holding hands and cuddling. God has never given a green light for same sex marriage. If there is a green light it is from the Gay Lesbian Transsexual Bisexual support to give this approval. The Church can’t give the green light because God has not given the Church that right.

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God hasn't given us the right to drive cars or eat junk food either. We do not live a theocracy. No one is bound by any supposed divine law. If a church wishes to marry gay couples - they have every right to, and you have no right to tell them not to, because you are quite capable of being wrong about your beliefs.

Any Church that allows same sex has acted upon their own behalf. If this happens God will be unpleased both at the same sex couple and the Church for allowing this. If same sex couples choose to marry at least have fear of God. Get married not in a Christian Church that Jesus is supposed to represent. God is Holy. God is pure. Don’t tempt God on this one. . The Holy Spirit can see the sin but will not in any way or forms participate in the sin. We all have sinned in those moments the Holy Spirit stood back. Then told us we are doing wrong in God’s eyes and to stop. That’s what the Holy Spirit will do to correct us from our transgressions.

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For a God that you claim hates gays so much, it's rather odd that only 5 out of 37,000+ verses in the Bible ever mention same-sex behavior and every single one involves rape or pagan worship. There is a theme there that you seem to not be getting. It's the rape and paganism that's bad - not the gay people.

He'sMyLordAlways said:

I can see that all these Scriptures God is referring that this man /woman and especially Ephesians 5:22.
Also in typical wedding vows it is usually said by the cleryperson
"today we are joined together in Holy matriomony this man and this woman"
and "that if there is any just reason why this man and woman should not be joined together today let them speak now and forever hold their peace'.
As you can see it doesn't say anything about this man/man or this woman /woman. I don't remember who had asked for this evidence about where does it say anything about churches and since there is too many posts I din't want to have to read them all again.

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Why would you expect those verses to say any different? Consensual same-sex relationships were nearly non-existent in Biblical/Roman/Greek days. And roughly 95% of the population is predominately heterosexual. That figure has not changed much throughout history - so wouldn't it make sense for a book entirely devoted to targeting a large audience to only direct itself towards... that audience?

With a topic like this the viewpoints on both sides at times seems like the posters are upset and it is almost like an eye for an eye with both sides believing that the other is correct.
I'm not judging anyone when I use this Scripture but a reason why I'm
posting in this topic...

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Wouldn't you be upset if the majority of Christians who continually spout how loving they are spend their entire lives hating you when they haven't the foggiest idea what they are talking about?

He'sMyLordAlways said:

Jase


He didn't write anything personally but the Bible was indeed inspired by God himself.. and in combination with


The Man of God and the Word of God

2Timothy 3: 12-17

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

While you may disagree with me on this viewpoint did you actually read from any post in this thread that someone said they hated any one person? I don't believe that anyone directly said they hated any person.

I wish I was able to say to those that disagree with this viewpoint I wish I could give you the answers that you need. I could guarantee that this could be discussed in a friendly manner with no mud slinging because I know my character.
But I guess we can agree this will always be a topic that we can only pray for in that said just friendly manner.

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2 Timothy 3:16 only applies to the Old Testament, more importantly the Torah. There was no such thing as the New Testament, and Paul most certainly wasn't declaring his own writing to be God-breathed.

Too many people seem to ignore the fact that the Bible didn't exist until 100s of years after the authors died when the church arbitrarily decided what should go in it.

And one doesn't need to flat out say "I hate you" for it to be quite obvious from their posts. The disdain shown on this board towards gays is absolutely unChristian. And yet, it's absurdly common.

Jase,
A little word. The Christian churches as shown hold to what the Biblical testimony says, that marriage is between a man and a woman and that same sex relations are error. Your arguments are not the Christian ones so please no more.
2 Tim 3 is indeed referring to the NT as well, the NT writers instruct the churches on what Christ has taught and about His fulfillment of the OT law and prophets.
As far as you are concerned the NT affirms the OT law and prophets and the Genesis creation account which includes prohibition of same sex relationships which are described as wicked and destestable in the OT and error, indecent and wicked in the NT.
There is no more scriptural evidence that gays can pray to God and not get delivered or get told by God sss is ok than theives or adulterers can. Your statement is a lack of faith. Faith in Christ delivers us from temptation, it does not necessarily remove the tempatation. I have never heard such rubbish as gay people cant help it. Neither can anyone else help temptation, they can however resist it.

The Bible excludes and condemns same sex relations men with men isntead of women, that covers all the possible excuses pro gay arguments make. those for whom they claim men with women is not natural, it is the Bible says men with women is natural. Those who claim consenting sss relationships are still men and men and condemned relatuonshios.
AND finally, NONE of us have said God hates gays, thats a falsehood and misrepresentation that some of you guys need to deal with.

David Brider,

Up to any churches who believe

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Well, there's this one,

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Well I would argue they aren’t Christian churches as their raison d’etre is for people who are confused about God’s purposes for man an woman and they encourge the resultant sin. They are organisations focused on sin and not on God.
The question for you then is why would the government want to give licence to organisations like these at the expence of the overwhelming body of religion? The UK Government must be positvely discriminating against religion.

Lets be clear and honest here, you are arguing for what major mainstream Christianity sees is disordered and detestable to God. There can be no compromise.
Get used to it.

I would most certainly say the New Testament is breathed by God. It was written by men who were apostles of Christ... if you don't trust in that authority then what do you trust in?

Phinehas2 said:

Well I would argue they aren’t Christian churches...

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Then by your standards, you won't find a Christian church that is happy to hold same-sex civil partnership services on its premises. Congratulations, that's a nice job of stacking the odds in your favour.

Meanwhile, in reality, such churches exist.

...as their raison d’etre is for people who are confused about God’s purposes for man an woman and they encourge the resultant sin. They are organisations focused on sin and not on God.

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No, they're focused on Jesus Christ.

The question for you then is why would the government want to give licence to organisations like these at the expence of the overwhelming body of religion?

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The proposed new legislation does nothing at the expense of any religion. You've been told this repeatedly - those churches, and other religious bodies, which are happy to hold civil partnership services on their premises are entitled to do so. Those churches, and other religious bodies, which do not wish to hold civil partnerhip ceremonies on their premises, do not have to do so. At whose expense, exactly, do you think such a system would operate?

David.

Phinehas2 said:

Jase,
A little word. The Christian churches as shown hold to what the Biblical testimony says, that marriage is between a man and a woman and that same sex relations are error.

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And yet, despite being asked on numerous occasions, you've yet to show just one verse of Scripture which clearly and unambiguously states that marriage cannot be between two men, or between two women.

David.

He'sMyLordAlways said:

Another good scriptured evidence IMO would be that of

Jeremiah 29:6
Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters—that you may be increased there, and not diminished.
Jeremiah 29:5-7 (in Context) Jeremiah 29 (Whole Chapter)
3.Ephesians 5:22
[ Marriage—Christ and the Church ] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:21-23 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
4.Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
Ephesians 5:23-25 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
5.Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
Ephesians 5:24-26 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
6.Ephesians 5:28
So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesians 5:27-29 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
7.Colossians 3:18
[ The Christian Home ] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Colossians 3:17-19 (in Context) Colossians 3 (Whole Chapter)
8.Colossians 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
Colossians 3:18-20 (in Context) Colossians 3 (Whole Chapter)
9.1 Peter 3:1
[ Submission to Husbands ] Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
1 Peter 3:1-3 (in Context) 1 Peter 3 (Whole Chapter)

I can see that all these Scriptures God is referring that this man /woman and especially Ephesians 5:22.

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But none of those verses rule out the possibility of marrage between two people of the same gender. As I think Jase pointed out, the Bible was written at a time when heteronormativity was pretty much taken for granted, so it's not surprising that the examples the writers used are of opposite-sex marriages. I'm not sure the Bible writers would have considered the possibility that two men or two women would have wanted to enter a marriage-like relationship (note that the usual verses brought out against homosexuality are at the most apparently referring to sexual activities between two people of the same sex, not to same-sex relationships per se). Heck, even nowadays, when there's a strong groundswell of public opinion in favour of same-sex marriage, both from within the LGBT community and from outside it, some people still seem incredulous about the notion that two people of the same sex could possibly want to get married, at least not for the same reasons that two people of the opposite sex would want to get married.

Also in typical wedding vows it is usually said by the cleryperson
"today we are joined together in Holy matriomony this man and this woman"
and "that if there is any just reason why this man and woman should not be joined together today let them speak now and forever hold their peace'.
As you can see it doesn't say anything about this man/man or this woman /woman.

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But the wording can easily be changed depending on the circumstances. There's no reason it has to be set in stone. When my wife and I married, the minister discussed what wording we would like to be used. Our wedding service was uniquely our wedding service, not anyone else's. I know that, in the UK at least, there's some wording that's required by law, but what happens around that is up to the couple and the minister.

And please correct if I'm wrong David but where did you read that BowTied use the word "queer?" I know he used leftist but I didn't read the word "queer".

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He used the word "queerer". As in:

BowTied said:

Great, quote a leftist politician who's queerer than a football bat!

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David.

Hatred towards gays? That is the most specious form of an argument. A call to repentance is NOT hatred.

If I'm standing on the train tacks and the train's a-comin', you'd be doing me a disservice not to warn me about the train, I don't care how much you tell me that you like and accept me.

One cannot embrace actions plainly prohibited by Scripture, and be a Christian. One cannot simply say "I love Christ!" and be a Christian. If you love Christ, you will obey His commands and those of His Apostles.

Additionally, those who exchange the truth of Scripture for a lie, will not prosper in any real sense. Pertaining to matters of doctrine, public opinion matters not one iota. Christians serve a King. The King of Kings, and I cannot recall Him ever taking a vote on anything. Public opinion crucified Him (fully in accordance with His will and by His authority), but if public opinion will condemn the perfect and blameless, why would I concern myself with the public's opinion of the Gospel.

There is nothing in Scripture to make us "comfortable" with who we are as we are. There is a great deal intended to expose sin and lead to repentance, but some "harden their hearts" and resist even the plainest of Scriptural guidance. They are "stiff-necked" and refuse even loving correction, and insist on doing it their way. Jesus would call them hypocrites, because He called such people thusly in His Incarnation.

Another specious argument is the contextual argument: since normal heterosexual relations were the norm, those were the only ones addressed. And when has loving God
God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind been the norm? Or loving your neighbor as yourself? But those who pervert Scripture to their own depraved ends would also twist the Biblical ethic of love to empty words and blind acceptance of things that God calls detestable, all in the name of acceptance and tolerance, which are admirable, but instead of worrying what another person thinks, perhaps we should attempt to make ourselves more tolerant and acceptable to the Lord.

But no! Those who pervert Scripture will say: "But God made them (homosexuals, adulterers, drug abusers, alcoholics) that way!" Also a lie! SIN makes us that way. SIN makes US, that way. And Lord knows, Heaven will be wall-to-wall with homosexuals, adulterers, drug addicts and alcoholics, as well as murderers, rapists and every other sinner of every stripe...but the one thing we will have in common is that we will have all gone down swinging, fighting against our own sins to the last breath.

There is another place reserved for those who persist in their sins: wallow in them, or worse yet, bend Scripture to their own depraved desires.

You will know a tree by its fruit: those who mock God and ignore Scripture are bearing fruit according to their kind.

supersoldier71 said:

One cannot embrace actions plainly prohibited by Scripture, and be a Christian. One cannot simply say "I love Christ!" and be a Christian. If you love Christ, you will obey His commands and those of His Apostles.

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This issue is neither plainly prohibited by scripture, nor was it ever a commandment made by Jesus. He never ever discussed same-sex couples or behavior. The only verses that even mention same-sex behavior are 1) In a book every Christian ignores (except for this issue of course) and 2) were corrupted by translators based on a bias against gays. For people who are so adamant about following scripture, you guys haven't the foggiest clue what it says.

There is nothing in Scripture to make us "comfortable" with who we are as we are. There is a great deal intended to expose sin and lead to repentance, but some "harden their hearts" and resist even the plainest of Scriptural guidance. They are "stiff-necked" and refuse even loving correction, and insist on doing it their way. Jesus would call them hypocrites, because He called such people thusly in His Incarnation.

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I contend that conservatives like yourself are the one's resisting scriptural guidance. Wheter you want to believe it or not, the second you read any verse in the Bible you are interpreting it. And your interpretations can be wrong. The entire Catholic Church was wrong on issues for hundreds of years, and they created the Bible. Why would I trust you to have any idea what the Bible says?

You will know a tree by its fruit: those who mock God and ignore Scripture are bearing fruit according to their kind.

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No where in the Bible is homosexuality called a sin. No where. It is simply mentioned with a prescription of death under Mosaic law, and since we are no longer under Mosaic law, it is largely redundant (except for a historian willing to look at sources on how the Israelites conducted their daily lives).