Noah and the Flood. Fact or Fantasy?

lucaspa

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Originally posted by JohnR7
Or just anyone else that does not have the Holy Spirit of God who can tell us all about the Bible using man's logic and reason.

What's wrong with using man's logic an reason?  That's what ministers do all the time when they give sermons.  That's what Henry Morris or Kent Hovind does when he tries to tell us there is scientific evidence for a Flood.  Ever hear Henry Morris' exegesis on the Tower of Babel story?  It's priceless. 
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Not enough to justify abandoning it, in my opinion. I would like to point out that man's logic and reasoning can often be seriously flawed,

That pain you feel is you shooting yourself in the foot.  After all, isn't all of science human logic and reasoning.  Tested against data, to be sure, but who else but humans are coming up with the hypotheses or doing the logic of making the deductions?
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by LightBearer
The reason God brought the flood was that his patience had reached its limit. Wickedness and violence had become so widespread that only one man, Noah found favour with him. ... So rather than a failure, the flood was a resounding success.  Allowing God's purpose to move on to it's unstopable and successful conclusion.

I see, so there is no wickedness today?

LB, you didn't answer any of the questions Prax and I raised. And you haven't realized that it is your literal interpretation that leads to the problems.

Specifically, if God is so omniscient, why didn't he know when He created Adam and  Eve that the whole human species would turn to wickedness? And if He is omnipotent as well as omiscient, then why didn't God create Adam such that such wickedness would not occur?

Also, when in Genesis 1 God looks at the creation of people, He calls it "very good".  Yet very soon it is not good but terrible?  You can't blame this all on Adam, either.  If God were omniscient then He should have known that Adam and Eve were going to eat that fruit.  Shoot, any human parent knows that a kid will head for the cookie jar just as soon as you tell them it's off-limits.  God is dumber than human parents? 

Your literal interpretation leads to all these theological problems and more. The Biblical literalism  underlying creationism is a major danger to Christianity.
 
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Didaskomenos

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You're right, lucaspa, but the problems with the literalist view of Scripture doesn't really begin with the practical pitfalls in certain areas of interpretation. It's much deeper than that.

Non-literalists, or, more particularly non-inerrantists, believe that Christianity is God's choice method of having a relationship with humanity, and the Bible is the record of this interaction throughout history. Literalists treat the Bible as God's choice substitute for a relationship with humanity, and Christianity is what they call what they see in the Bible. Who needs to know God personally when everything he could ever say is already in the Bible?
 
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JohnR7

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Originally posted by lucaspa
I see, so there is no wickedness today? 

Not in Sodom and Gommorrah. The first cleansing is by water. The second cleansing is by fire. There are things that water will not eliminate, but fire sure will.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


 
 
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JohnR7

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Originally posted by lucaspa
You can't blame this all on Adam, either. 

It is not all Adam's or man's fault. Satan and the Anti-christ will share in their part of the blame.

But God will not take responsability for the mess man and satan have made out of this old world. Nor will God take responsibility for the destruction the antichrist will bring upon this world.
 
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Doctrine1st

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Can you perhaps explain to me why it took God over 3000 years from the flood (which, as we have seen, worked a treat) to send this redeemer? Why did he not send the redeemer in the 1st generation after Adam sinned. It would have saved a great many souls, don't you think?

This is a question I been asking ever since I can remember. Why the flood, plagues, famine, and all the smiting by God, and on the behalf of God in the OT, and then the extension of the olive branch via the blood of Jesus in the NT? Why not just send Jesus in as the next act after the talking snake?
 
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JohnR7

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Originally posted by Doctrine1st
Why not just send Jesus in as the next act after the talking snake?

God waits for the fullness of time, when transgressions have reached their fullness.

Daniel 8:23
    "And in the latter time of their kingdom,
    When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
    A king shall arise,
    Having fierce features,
    Who understands sinister schemes.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,


 



 
 
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LightBearer

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Originally posted by Praxiteles


This is a new topic, but OK. The redeemer.... Can you perhaps explain to me why it took God over 3000 years from the flood (which, as we have seen, worked a treat) to send this redeemer? Why did he not send the redeemer in the 1st generation after Adam sinned. It would have saved a great many souls, don't you think?

An unusual course of action for an omnibenevolent deity, to be sure.
When Adam rebelled against God in Eden
Of course, since (as you say) the flood was so successful in teaching mankind about the consequence of sin (and even the existence of God), the redeemer probably wasn't really necessary.

 

A complete and absolute success. Yes indeed.

There's no sin, and no doubt around about the existence of God, right?



It is human wisdom to say do it now and betrays an impatience that shows a lack of wisdom. God thankfully is more patient and his way and patience always works out for the overall good. Why has he waited so long?

When Satan tempted Eve in Eden in saying "YOU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad." Genesis 3:4-5 not only did he call God a liar but also implied that God was holding something of value back from her and Adam.

He thereby influenced them into thinking that God was a liar and not to be trusted. That they would be better off acting independently, deciding for themselves what constituted good or bad, right or wrong conduct and not living by God's standard of right and wrong. In so doing he brought about a rebellion against God's sovereignty, questioning his right to rule and the rightness of his rule. Would man be better off independent of God, would they make a more success of life for themselves? This serious issue would take time to settle.  God as our creator knew that man did not have the ability to rule over other men or make a success of their lives independent of him, "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step" Jeremiah 10:23.  Yet in his wisdom and mercy he has allowed man nearly six thousand years to prove or fulfil that claim, that man is better off independent of God.

God has allowed Man time to try every form of human government without success. Human rule has not only failed to fully satisfy the needs of all, bring true peace and security to every one on earth but has instead ruined the earth and brought us to the brink of self destruction. Solomon observed "man has dominated man to his injury" Ecclesiastes 8:9.

So God's allowing enough time has enabled a precedent to be set, at no time in the future can God's sovereignty be successfully challenged again because every conceivable form of human rule has been tried. Now and only now at this time can we rightfully conclude that the experiment in human ruler-ship independent of God has been a failure and a disaster. Man still finds himself as you have recognized under condemnation to sin and death. God, by his patience and long suffering has thus ensured that mankind will never have to experience this disaster again.

God can now, without ever again needing to allow rebellion against his sovereignty to rise, remove human ruler-ship and replace it with a righteous government of his own in the hands of his son Jesus Christ. This government will remove the effects of sin and all it's consequences including death.  Finally fully satisfying the needs of human kind, bringing true peace and security to the earth.
 
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Micaiah

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And that shows the confusion and uselessness of the definition of "kind". You can never say, by that definition, the two populations are different kinds, can you? So, interfertility is a necessary but not sufficient characteristic to belong to the same kind. What is the sufficient characteristic so we can show that two groups are different "kinds"?

Scripture doesn't contradict our observations. Each animal and plant reproduces after its own kind.

Now, how do you know there were different kinds in the groups listed by Scripture? Scripture says because they could "breed after their own kind". This seems to say that populations that can't interbreed are different kinds. But the creationist websites contradict that.

Look at verse 21 of Genesis 1. The context is plainly that there is a many kinds of sea creatures and winged birds.

Let's try to distinguish between Scripture and creationism. Creationism isn't Scripture itself, but a scientific theory derived partially from a literal reading of Genesis 1. Creationism is also partly derived from Plato's "eternal types". According to Plato, types can't change. Sound familiar? Look up Lighbearer's assertions that kinds can't change. The theory of special creation dominant in Darwin's time did hold that Scripture forbade speciation.

A literal reading of Genesis 1 forbids two populations of wheat from diverging so far that they can't interbreed. Yet with the wheat-rye hybrid of triticale, that is just what has happened. Also with several species of sunflower.

Now, what has happened is that so much data has accumulated that speciation happens that creationists are desperately trying to save the theory. Therefore, like microevolution, they have conceded that speciation happens but have retreated to some vague definition of "kind" in hopes that the statement "one kind does not change to another kind" can't be falsified. Unfortunately, phylogenetic analysis and some fossil sequences have falsified any possible definition of "kind". Genes are not the independent observations that "kinds" demands, but are connected through their history with genes from different phyla and even kingdoms in the taxonomic system!

Demonstrate where my statements do not reflect the truth taught in Genesis 1, and 2.

Then that's not a definition, but a list. However, Duane Gish tried to do this once.

"In the above discussion, we have defined a basic kind as including all of those variants which have been derived from a single stock. We have cited some examples of varieties which we believe should be included within a single basic kind. We cannot always be sure, however, what constitutes a basic kind. The division into kinds is easier the more the divergence observed. It is obvious, for example, that among invertebrates the protozoa, sponges, jellyfish, worms, snails, trilobites, lobsters, and bees are all different kinds. Among the vertebrates, the fishes amphibians reptiles, birds, and mammals are obviously different basic kinds. Among the reptiles, the turtles, crocodiles, dinosaurs, pterosaurs (flying reptiles), and ichthyosaurs (aquatic reptiles) would be placed in different kinds. Each one of these major groups of reptiles could be further subdivided into the basic kinds within each.
Within the mammalian class, duck-billed playtpuses, opossums, bats, hedgehogs, rats, rabbits, dogs, cats, lemurs, monkeys, apes, and men are easily assignable to different basic kinds. Among the apes, the gibbons, orangutans, chimpanzees, and gorillas would each be included in a different basic kind.

When we attempt to make fine divisions within groups of plants and animals where distinguishing features are subtle, there is a possibility of error. Many taxonomic distinctions established by man are uncertain and must remain tentative.

Any list is a best guess. The descrition in Genesis is clear enough to be see that it is different to the evolutionist's beliefs on the origin of the species.

[When I say evolutionist I am refering to the beliefs of the humanist or atheist on how the world came into existence, or Christians who adopt those beliefs]
 
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Nathan Poe

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Originally posted by JohnR7
Not in Sodom and Gommorrah. The first cleansing is by water. The second cleansing is by fire. There are things that water will not eliminate, but fire sure will.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


 

So why bother with the water? Why not go with fire and get it right the first time? It doesn't seem like God to be so slipshod in his genocides.


"Burn it to ashes, then burn the ashes." -- Ray Bradbury, Farenheit 451
 
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Micaiah

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According to YEC, there should be no sedimentary rock (and certainly not miles of it) and practically no fossils, and those all mixed up with all organisms found in all the layers.

I have an article in front of me Creation Vol 24, No 2 March - May 2002 that gives a detailed description of the possible rapid formation of sedimentary rock.

I expect there would be many fossils and these would have been the result of mudslides during the global flood.

You come across as one who knows a bit about science. Stick to that rather than trying to misrepresent the beliefs of Christians.
 
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Micaiah

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Not about your beliefs about Scripture, but whether you take a literalistic reading of Scripture. Prax's point is that here is another part where a literal reading of the Bible leads you into huge theological trouble.

BTW, the Noah story, if literal, also calls into question God's wisdom and omniscience. If God knew that humans were going to turn out totally wicked, why didn't He make them differently to start with?

If instead this is just another creation tale whose purpose is 1) to undermine the Unt-napushtim tale and 2) indicate that God can be pretty drastic in punishing the wicked, then it is pretty harmless theologically.

We evidently interpret this passage in a differently. The internal evidence, ie looking at what Scripture says about Scripture, is clearly that the passage was an accurate historical record. The story was not a parable or myth. That is just a convenient interpretation to dismiss what you do not like in Scripture.

BTW, I do not like to be labelled a literalist, since at times Scripture clearly states the message of a section is allegorical, or prophetic. I adopt the mode of interpretation that was clearly intended.
 
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Originally posted by lucaspa
That pain you feel is you shooting yourself in the foot.


OWW!!!

After all, isn't all of science human logic and reasoning.  Tested against data, to be sure, but who else but humans are coming up with the hypotheses or doing the logic of making the deductions?

uhhh... humans, using human logic and reason? Not just in their formulation of hypotheses, but also in the methods they use to test them against the data.

Now, once my foot heals, I'll ask you why this seems problematic to you... 
 
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Rapid formation of sedimentary rock. Lets first look at the range of sedimentary rocks from siltstones to conglomerates,to breccia and anthracite.All these require special environments which cannot be duplicated in a few thousand years If you disagree could you give me your interpretation of the formation of anthracite
 
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Micaiah

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Also, when in Genesis 1 God looks at the creation of people, He calls it "very good". Yet very soon it is not good but terrible? You can't blame this all on Adam, either. If God were omniscient then He should have known that Adam and Eve were going to eat that fruit. Shoot, any human parent knows that a kid will head for the cookie jar just as soon as you tell them it's off-limits. God is dumber than human parents?

Your comments demonstrate the truth taught in Romans that all have inherited a sinful nature, and that is precisely why children are inherently disobedient. It is not something you have to teach them.

But remember, Scripture teaches Adam and Eve originally were without sin. They were in a perfect environment where all their needs were met. God gave them the ability to chose between good and evil, to obey or disobey. They were given a free will. Sure GOd could have wired us up so that we always did what He wanted. But what kind of a relationship would that be?
 
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Micaiah

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...only because there is no extrabiblical evidence for a global flood. It clearly did not happen, and perhaps you should peruse this thread and the posts that falsify the global flood model.

Christian scientists see the same evidence as evolutionists, and interpret it differently.
 
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