Icons, candles, incense and images. Creating an atomosphere? for what?

Kristos · Feb 16, 2011

simonthezealot said:
Today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers.
How do you guys NOT understand that? This understanding is all over the early Christians writings.

John Chrysostom explains: "You must worship 'in truth'; as former things were types, such as circumcision, and whole burnt offerings, and victims, and incense, they now no longer exist, but all is 'truth.'" (John Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Gospel of John, at John 4:24)

You are right, incense is not a literal offering to God. But I don't see the logic behind not using it during prayer and worship in spirit and in truth.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 16, 2011

Walter Kovacs said:
Acts 10:10
He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
Acts 22:17
When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance
Acts 11:5
I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was.
Orly?

Young) Mark 5:42 And immediately the damsel arose, and was walking, for she was twelve years [old]; and they were amazed/exesthsan <1839> (5627) with a great amazement/ekstasei <1611>,

#1611 used 7 times in 7 verses. 2 times Mark, 1 time Luke, 4 times in Acts

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Strong's Number G1611 matches the Greek ἔκστασις (ekstasis), which occurs 7 times in 7 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
AV trance 3, be amazed + 3083 2, amazement 1, astonishment 1

1611. ekstasis ek'-stas-is from 1839; a displacement of the mind, i.e. bewilderment, "ecstasy":--+ be amazed, amazement, astonishment, trance.
1537. ek ek or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up

YouTube - Trancers - Main Theme

simonthezealot · Feb 16, 2011

Dorothea said:
Another person posting with blind ignorance. Do you all ever actually research and read of the early church, or do you just go by what anti-ancient church propaganda that is fed to you throughout your lives?

PMK
You know that dozens of early christian writers disagree and the use of incense was not the practice of the ancient churches.
Read Arnobius Against the Heathen, Book 6, Section 1.

Thekla · Feb 16, 2011

simonthezealot said:
PMK
You know that dozens of early christian writers disagree and the use of incense was not the practice of the ancient churches.
Read Arnobius Against the Heathen, Book 6, Section 1.

This Arnobius ?

Thus, he holds the heathen gods to be real beings, but subordinate to the supreme Christian God; in a streak of gnosticism, he affirms that the human soul (Book II, 14 - 62) is not the work of God, but of an intermediate being, and is not immortal by nature, but capable of putting on immortality as a grace.

And do you claim that he speaks of every Church everywhere ?

Thekla · Feb 16, 2011

So then, are the early Christians who worshiped at the Temple actually false Christians because they were worshiping using incense ?
Do you say the same of Jesus Christ, Who also worshiped at the Temple ?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 16, 2011

RibI said:
LOL. Holy Smoke, you must be one of them.

Incense does give off smoke

http://www.christianforums.com/t7510624-22/#post56050446
Calvin has made many Catholics I know of. Go John Go!

Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004 so let me get this straight...

The Catholic Church (via her members) is perfectly content to encourage what they consider to be false doctrine in the hopes that a few people might become Catholics?
Holy smoke.

Kaonashi · Feb 16, 2011

Oh them evil Protestants! how dare they use hazers/smoke machines in the church! it's kinda funny how much they complain about incense being used in the liturgical churches when they use hazers/smoke machines for the same effect in their concerts.

Andrew Ryan · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
Andrew, did you know that apostasy also can trace its roots all the way back to the beginnings of the church?

This has what to do with anything?

We call that stuff unbiblical coz its not in the bible.

Did you not read my post?

Quite simple really, if your practicing something related to worship thats not in the bible then best not to do it eh?

See above.

Just incase its an abomination...which idol worship is!

None of this is idol worship, come on now.

Traditions of men tend to cloud the simple Gospel we have in God breathed scripture.

Traditions of men, blah blah blah, idol worship blah, confounding the gospel, blah blah blah, all of you are broken records.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 16, 2011

Thekla said:
We have a gnostic

Do you include the Temple worshiping incense sniffing Jesus in your group of abominators

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G946 matches the Greek βδέλυγμα (bdelygma), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
Used 3 times in Gospels, 3 times Revelation

Young) Luke 16:15 and He said to them, `Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts;
because that which among men is high, [is] abomination/bdelugma <946> before God;

Revelation 17:4 And the Woman having been about-cast of *purple and *scarlet and golded to *gold and stone, precious and pearls,
having a golden drinkcup in Her hand being replete of abominations/bdelugmatwn <946> and the uncleannesses of the prostitution of Her

(Young) Revelation 18:13 and cinnamon, and odours/incense/qumiamata <2368>, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour,
and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 16, 2011

Stryder06 said:
I'm not exactly sure I'm bothered with the incense per say, however one should understand what it's purpose was. Incense in the sanctuary in the OT wasn't a type of anything but a visual representation (as was everything in the sanctuary) of what goes on in the heavenly sanctuary. I don't know if this should be a point of division, however the intent behind using the incense may be a reason for concern, just saying.

The jewish/hebrew book of Revelation also has all that symbolizism between the OC and NC types of worship.
Unfortunately, the Jews of today do not read that book :sorry:

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today, the same covering/veil/ upon the reading of the Old Covenant/Testament is remaining, no being up-covered/un-veiled.
That in Christ it is being-taken-away

http://www.christianforums.com/t7510446/
Camp, Temple and Sanctuary in NT/NC

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

simonthezealot · Feb 16, 2011

Thekla said:
This Arnobius ?

And do you claim that he speaks of every Church everywhere ?

What are you even quoting there?

The Old Testament worship of God employed incense. That incense is a symbol and picture of our prayers, surely you understand that?

As i stated earlier today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers. This is confirmed by such fathers and Christian writers as Justin martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alex., Origen, Cyprian, Methodius, Lactantius, Athanasius, Ephraim the Syrian, Chrysostom (as i noted already and you seemed to glaze over), Augustine, and John Cassian~~ Doubtless many more could be added to these.

Thekla · Feb 16, 2011

simonthezealot said:
What are you even quoting there?

The Old Testament worship of God employed incense. That incense is a symbol and picture of our prayers, surely you understand that?

As i stated earlier today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers. This is confirmed by such fathers and Christian writers as Justin martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alex., Origen, Cyprian, Methodius, Lactantius, Athanasius, Ephraim the Syrian, Chrysostom (as i noted already and you seemed to glaze over), Augustine, and John Cassian~~ Doubtless many more could be added to these.

Wikipedia - you can check the footnotes they give.

That's right, the incense is not a literal offering. So maybe you can give the quotes or the post # - I'd like to read for myself, please.

What of the prophecy of the gentiles using incense -- do you have a problem with that as well ?

Christos Anesti · Feb 16, 2011

John Chrysostom explains: "You must worship 'in truth'; as former things were types, such as circumcision, and whole burnt offerings, and victims, and incense, they now no longer exist, but all is 'truth.'" (John Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Gospel of John, at John 4:24)

Apparently this didn't imply that we could no longer make use of incense in the Liturgy because it is used in the Liturgy of St Chrysostom. I think maybe you are drawing conclusions from this that he didn't intend. It's certainly good to take the Church Fathers seriously though and I'm glad you are reading them. It seems your reason for reading them might be to gather ammunition for attacking ideas you don't like though.

Andrew Ryan · Feb 16, 2011

simonthezealot said:
What are you even quoting there?

The Old Testament worship of God employed incense. That incense is a symbol and picture of our prayers, surely you understand that?

As i stated earlier today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers. This is confirmed by such fathers and Christian writers as Justin martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alex., Origen, Cyprian, Methodius, Lactantius, Athanasius, Ephraim the Syrian, Chrysostom (as i noted already and you seemed to glaze over), Augustine, and John Cassian~~ Doubtless many more could be added to these.

Really? So all of these men, have explicitly denounced all the practices you're complaining about? I find this hard to believe.

Kaonashi · Feb 16, 2011

So, when did the early churches use hazers/smoke machines in their services?

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 16, 2011

Who uses a smoke machine?

Forgive me...

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 16, 2011

Some interesting history on the use of incense among Christianity and other religions, including atheists.

Religious use of incense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianity
Incense has been employed in the worship of the vast majority of Christian groups since antiquity, particularly in the Eastern Christian churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and some Anglican and Lutheran Churches. The practice is probably rooted in the earlier traditions of Judaism in the time of the Second Temple. The smoke of burning incense is interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Christian churches as a symbol of the prayer of the faithful rising to heaven.[1]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-1"[2] This symbolism is seen in Psalm 141 (140), verse 2: "Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight: the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice." It is often used after the manner of a purification ritual.

In the Book of Revelation, incense symbolises the prayers of the saints in heaven - the "golden bowl full of incense" are "the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8, cf. Revelation 8:3) which infuse upwards towards the altar of God.

Judaism
The ketoret is the incense described in the Bible for use in the Temple. Its composition is described in greater detail in the Talmud. Although it was not produced following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Orthodox Judaism studies the composition of the ancient Temple incense for future use in a restored Temple as part of daily Jewish services.

Islam
Though not used during worship, incense is used throughout the Islamic world to remind the believers of the rewards of righteous believers in Paradise:

Buddhism, Taoism and Shinto in Asia
The first recorded use of incense was by the Egyptians.
Incense use in religious ritual was either further or simulteaneously developed in China, and eventually transmitted to Korea, Japan and Vietnam. Incense holds an invaluable role in East Asian Buddhist ceremonies and rites as well as in those of Chinese Taoist and Japanese Shinto shrines. It is reputed to be a method of purifying the surroundings, bringing forth an assembly of buddhas, bodhisattvas, gods, demons, and the like.

Hinduism
Hinduism was probably the first religion in which incense was used and sacrificed to show loyalty to God. The use of incense is a traditional and ubiquitous practice in almost all pujas, prayers, and other forms of worship.

Neopaganism
Incense is also often used in Neopagan rituals to represent the element of air, although more modern approaches to incense magic demonstrate that incense actually represents all of the elements.

Satanism
Some forms of Satanism use incense to create an atmosphere that is capable of bringing 'demons' into the room, to perform such tasks as telling the future, healing the ritual practitioner or another person, and in some cases, Satanists believe they can 'curse' or 'hex' someone if the demons are willing to help[citation needed].

simonthezealot · Feb 16, 2011

Andrew Ryan said:
Really? So all of these men, have explicitly denounced all the practices you're complaining about? I find this hard to believe.

Prayer directly to our Mediator(the Christ) is the fulfillment of the incense symbol of the old testament.

today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers.

Justin Martyr (lived about A.D. 100-165):

What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him.

- Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 13

Irenaeus (lived about A.D. 115 - 202):

But what other name is there which is glorified among the Gentiles than that of our Lord, by whom the Father is glorified, and man also? And because it is [the name] of His own Son, who was made man by Him, He calls it His own. Just as a king, if he himself paints a likeness of his son, is right in calling this likeness his own, for both these reasons, because it is [the likeness] of his son, and because it is his own production; so also does the Father confess the name of Jesus Christ, which is throughout all the world glorified in the Church, to be His own, both because it is that of His Son, and because He who thus describes it gave Him for the salvation of men. Since, therefore, the name of the Son belongs to the Father, and since in the omnipotent God the Church makes offerings through Jesus Christ, He says well on both these grounds, "And in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice." Now John, in the Apocalypse, declares that the "incense" is "the prayers of the saints."

- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 17, Section 6

Clement of Alexandria (lived about A.D. 150 - 215):

Now breathing together is properly said of the Church. For the sacrifice of the Church is the word breathing as incense from holy souls, the sacrifice and the whole mind being at the same time unveiled to God. Now the very ancient altar in Delos they celebrated as holy; which alone, being undefiled by slaughter and death, they say Pythagoras approached. And will they not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar, and that incense arising from it is holy prayer? But I believe sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh. But without such idolatry he who wished might have partaken of flesh.

- Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 7, Chapter 6

This list goes on.

Fireinfolding · Feb 16, 2011

Heres a few we can see some other similiarities in as well...

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense

Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer...

And likewise...

1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Again comparing these two...

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Again here...

Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer;...

Heb 3:6 ...whose house are we...

2Cr 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Still looking at it and trying to work it through from various angles, but thought these were kool too

Thekla · Feb 16, 2011

simonthezealot said:
Prayer directly to our Mediator(the Christ) is the fulfillment of the incense symbol of the old testament.

today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers.

Justin Martyr (lived about A.D. 100-165):
What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him.
- Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 13

Irenaeus (lived about A.D. 115 - 202):
But what other name is there which is glorified among the Gentiles than that of our Lord, by whom the Father is glorified, and man also? And because it is [the name] of His own Son, who was made man by Him, He calls it His own. Just as a king, if he himself paints a likeness of his son, is right in calling this likeness his own, for both these reasons, because it is [the likeness] of his son, and because it is his own production; so also does the Father confess the name of Jesus Christ, which is throughout all the world glorified in the Church, to be His own, both because it is that of His Son, and because He who thus describes it gave Him for the salvation of men. Since, therefore, the name of the Son belongs to the Father, and since in the omnipotent God the Church makes offerings through Jesus Christ, He says well on both these grounds, "And in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice." Now John, in the Apocalypse, declares that the "incense" is "the prayers of the saints."
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 17, Section 6

Clement of Alexandria (lived about A.D. 150 - 215):
Now breathing together is properly said of the Church. For the sacrifice of the Church is the word breathing as incense from holy souls, the sacrifice and the whole mind being at the same time unveiled to God. Now the very ancient altar in Delos they celebrated as holy; which alone, being undefiled by slaughter and death, they say Pythagoras approached. And will they not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar, and that incense arising from it is holy prayer? But I believe sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh. But without such idolatry he who wished might have partaken of flesh.
- Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 7, Chapter 6

This list goes on.

So where is the quote that says incense should not be used, and is not used ?
Is there a difference between pagan use of incense and Christian use of incense ?
Where is it stated that the incense is = to the prayer it represents ?
Should we call the OT prophecy of incense/gentiles false ?

Icons, candles, incense and images. Creating an atomosphere? for what?

Servant

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

Thekla

Guest

Thekla

Guest

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

If God is thy father, man is thy brother.

I like any king that can reign with his fist

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

Thekla

Guest

Junior Member

I like any king that can reign with his fist

If God is thy father, man is thy brother.

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

Well-Known Member

Thekla

Guest

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