Icons, candles, incense and images. Creating an atomosphere? for what?

Yep, after reading through the pages after my first post in this thread it turns out I am right. The denial of archaeological evidences and the denial of historical Christian tradition by Protestants. I think it's funny that such people go on about the early Church doing this and that and how they are following in the foot steps of the early Church and are somehow connected when you're denominations didn't arise until after the 16th century or later. Further the practices of the churches in question, the Catholic church and the Orthodox church, can trace their origins and practices back to the apostles in an unbroken chain of apostolic succession. I don't understand why incense, icons and so on are being denigrated or why it's being called "unbiblical," considering such practices arose from historical Christian tradition tracing back to the early Church and the apostles and were observed and practiced ever since. This argument doesn't make any sense to me really. It was normative Christian practice all they way up until the reformation and now, suddenly, it's "unbiblical." Amazing to me that such historical practices are being attacked but yet, all these feel good church rock bands go on without question.

Andrew Ryan said:

Amazing to me that such historical practices are being attacked but yet, all these feel good church rock bands go on without question.

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Because the items in question involve the worship of God, the "feel good church rock bands" involve the worship of Self. Thus worshiping Self through entertainment in place of worshiping God is more pleasurable and therefore not objectionable (at least for a short period of time).

Protestantism is based on skepticism and a resistance to God. People said, "But I don't want to obey the Church's moral teachings!", "But I don't want to go to Confession!", "But I don't want to fast!", "But I don''t want to do X, Y, or Z!" So then they tried to find reasons to justify it.

This is not to say that Protestants now think this way, they just know what these false teachers taught them, but that is the origin of these teachings. That is why St. Paul says that the creation of sects is a sin of the flesh:

Gal 5:19-21 said:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

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simonthezealot said:

I remember reading how the Jewish leaders of Jesus day had this attitude and failed to see Him as the Messiah.

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What do the Pharisees have to do with our worship service - the liturgy - and its aides visual and otherwise?

simonthezealot said:

How do these things do that without drawing our attention to the item instead of the Lord Himself.

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They are reminders of Him, they glorify Him, and everything points to Him. Just like the Bible, even though it's a book sitting there, is holy and reminds us of Him.

PilgrimToChrist said:

Because the items in question involve the worship of God, the "feel good church rock bands" involve the worship of Self. Thus worshiping Self through entertainment in place of worshiping God is more pleasurable and therefore not objectionable (at least for a short period of time).

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I have to agree. Some of those "entertainment" churches are all about numbers, money, and mostly ego.

Dorothea said:

I'm sorry if you got the impression I was upset. I am fine, fire, but thank you for your concern and kindness.

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Not a problem Dorothea, God bless

Yes, to your questions regarding icons. They are holy objects just like the bible is holy to us. Material things are not evil when they are used for holiness in worshiping God.

As to your reference to Hezekiah and Moses, I need the verses again. But basically God was angry about people burning incense to false Gods, not to Him. And there is incense in heaven, so it is not a bad thing. The liturgy replicates the heavenly worship.

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Here you go Dorothea one for each I was discussing, theres others but the first... (unto Baalim) and burning incense to graven images

Hosea 11:2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

Here (as well) they would do what their own mouths dictated (not the prophets) and burned incense to the Queen of heaven (false gods)

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,

And here burning incense to the image God ordered Moses to make

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

These more specifically in that there is an example of each burning incense to graven images (in that in relation to Baalim) burning incense to false gods (and that in relation to "the Queen of heaven") and burning incense to the brasen serpent (that which GOD himself ordered Moses to make).

On another thread, someone sorta threw up, the "Oh well God had Moses make an image, is that an unholy image" (type thing) no ofcourse it wasnt Jesus speaks of the figure it represents in respects to himself, however "holy" the image might appear when they burned incense to it it was destroyed with Gods stamp of approval (even though HE himself ordered it to be made) but once they began to burn incense to it, it was GONE and Hezekiah took care of destroying it.

Incense can be shown as a figure to prayer

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,


Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense


Ezekiel 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints,ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Brasen serpent type of Christ here...

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Whereas Jesus likewise says...

John 16:26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:


In breif, the same things we were all going round on before, but Im tired of going around on it (its a hands off season... you get those sometimes, bored to tears over it)

However, I am still curious about the image of the brasen serpent (per my question) as I would think it would be regarded as more of a "holy icon" or "holy image" (whatever the lingo) considering who ordered it to be made and by whom it was made, and yet it it was a good thing to destroy because of their own actions toward it. See what I mean?

simonthezealot said:

I'm not denigrating i'm stating that it is an un-scriptural view of the NT church.
I've read and understand more than is necessary about iconostassis...
It's not in the word, ain't cool.
I understand the light references and such how do you figure carries on the petitions of prayers for the prayer? or does the orth's not hold to that as the catholics do?

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What does architecture have to do with the "meaning and purpose" of icons ??

And yes, the subjects that the icons teach are indeed in Scripture, as is the Incarnation.

And you have again skipped most of my first and now second post -- why ?

Then, your question re: candles is designed to drive the answer into something you disparage also -- ie, its not really a question, but a trap.

Anyway, why icons are used, what they mean, their origination, etc. is in the article I posted a couple pages back. Maybe some will read and understand.

simonthezealot said:

Sure both, after He began His ministry.
Even more to the point after his resurrection.

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Part of Jewish worship -- in the temple there were images (1 Kings 6:23-29), candles (1 Kings 7:49), and incense (1 Kings 7:50).

Please note that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple, but left all these things alone.

What difference does it make if he participated before or after he began his ministry, or after his resurrection? Is Christ's prayer to the father somehow more "spirit and truth" after these events?

Since Christ was brought to the temple to be circumcised, it is clear Mary and Joseph were observant Jews and would have brought him to the temple to pray. It is clear they traveled to Jerusalem to observe the Passover each year. They were observant Jews. Prior to his passion, he celebrates the Passover with his apostles.

When he begins his ministry we see him often in the temple teaching. Are you implying that he does not participate in the religious worship there? And the Pharisees never once comment on that?

Fireinfolding said:

Not a problem Dorothea, God bless




Here you go Dorothea one for each I was discussing, theres others but the first... (unto Baalim) and burning incense to graven images

Hosea 11:2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

Here (as well) they would do what their own mouths dictated (not the prophets) and burned incense to the Queen of heaven (false gods)

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,

And here burning incense to the image God ordered Moses to make

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

These more specifically in that there is an example of each burning incense to graven images (in that in relation to Baalim) burning incense to false gods (and that in relation to "the Queen of heaven") and burning incense to the brasen serpent (that which GOD himself ordered Moses to make).

On another thread, someone sorta threw up, the "Oh well God had Moses make an image, is that an unholy image" (type thing) no ofcourse it wasnt Jesus speaks of the figure it represents in respects to himself, however "holy" the image might appear when they burned incense to it it was destroyed with Gods stamp of approval (even though HE himself ordered it to be made) but once they began to burn incense to it, it was GONE and Hezekiah took care of destroying it.

Incense can be shown as a figure to prayer

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,


Psalm 141:2Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense


Ezekiel 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints,ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Brasen serpent type of Christ here...

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Whereas Jesus likewise says...

John 16:26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:


In breif, the same things we were all going round on before, but Im tired of going around on it (its a hands off season... you get those sometimes, bored to tears over it)

However, I am still curious about the image of the brasen serpent (per my question) as I would think it would be regarded as more of a "holy icon" or "holy image" (whatever the lingo) considering who ordered it to be made and by whom it was made, and yet it it was a good thing to destroy because of their own actions toward it. See what I mean?

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Sure, I believe so. I'm a simple-minded gal, but I think I graslp what you're saying. I agree that incense has been used for both bad reasons (worshiping idols - false gods) and for good (aiding in worshiping God).

I would have to look up the Moses serpent thing, but I'm not feeling like getting into that right now. Maybe later.

PilgrimToChrist said:

Because the items in question involve the worship of God, the "feel good church rock bands" involve the worship of Self. Thus worshiping Self through entertainment in place of worshiping God is more pleasurable and therefore not objectionable (at least for a short period of time).

Protestantism is based on skepticism and a resistance to God. People said, "But I don't want to obey the Church's moral teachings!", "But I don't want to go to Confession!", "But I don't want to fast!", "But I don''t want to do X, Y, or Z!" So then they tried to find reasons to justify it.

This is not to say that Protestants now think this way, they just know what these false teachers taught them, but that is the origin of these teachings. That is why St. Paul says that the creation of sects is a sin of the flesh:

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Agreed and well said. One can't help but laugh at the fact that in one thread, icons, incense, candles, etc. (which through archaeological evidences can be linked and traced back to the early Church) are being attacked and labeled as "unbiblical," but yet electric guitars, electric basses, drum kits (none of which existed in Biblical times) and other practices of the churches of Barnum and Bailey are being defended.

You know who else rejected icons, incense and imagery, leaving their worship space empty and blank?

Islam.



You put some chairs in there, put a cross up somewhere, an American flag and put the praise band over in the corner and its time for Sunday fellowship.

simonthezealot said:

They are not just like the bible, Christ uses the scriptures to judge tradition and to sanctify His children...These things in your practice are derived from tradition and when you judge them from scripture they fall short..

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Again, this tradition being a bad thing. If only the translators hadn't cut out both uses of it in the Bible. There is Christ's Tradition and traditions of men. We follower the former. Those disconnected from the Church follower the latter, TBH. But we are the ones who are always branded with this false title. :o

The Bible isn't a manual. You can't live by a book. Christianity is to be experienced and lived through the life of the Church, through prayer to God, through the liturgy, through reading the Scriptures, and most especially through the union with Christ God in the Eucharist. Holy or Sacred Tradition is a like a four-legged stool. One can't sit on a stool with only one leg propping it up.

And btw, the Scriptures are part of Holy Tradition. They do not contradict. We actually follow all of Christ's teachings through His Apostles, but holding fast to both the oral and written traditions of Christ and His Apostles.

...boy, I feel like a broken record these past couple of days, having to explain this over and over again.

simonthezealot said:

They are not just like the bible, Christ uses the scriptures to judge tradition and to sanctify His children...These things in your practice are derived from tradition and when you judge them from scripture they fall short..

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How can you know that if you don't know the difference between an iconostasis and an icon

Dorothea said:

Sure, I believe so. I'm a simple-minded gal, but I think I graslp what you're saying. I agree that incense has been used for both bad reasons (worshiping idols - false gods) and for good (aiding in worshiping God).

I would have to look up the Moses serpent thing, but I'm not feeling like getting into that right now. Maybe later.

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You made me go fetch them for nothing?

Thanks pal