New apologetics website in defense of Medjugojre
- Thread starter Rising_Suns
- Start date
Thank you and yes, I have read that many times.
For me, being the waffler that I have come to be,
the statement of "Constat de non supernaturalitate" vitiates any potential authenticity re: pastoral concern for the region.
Hope makes me optimistic. The totality of the situation, a waffler.
These are our guidelines, so I leave it up to Mother Church to decide for me:
Discernment of Apparitions
1978 Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith document on Apparition Discernment
Dear JoabAnias,
I would encourage you to read the page on the website entitled; "Position of the Church", as it goes into more detail than just that one quote I listed previously. It also shows how the CDF's 1978 norms indicate that the Church's position is actually more favorable than you may think it is. Again, all this is covered in this website; Medjugorje Apologetics | A Formal Defense from the Catholic Church
Blessings,
Davide
Upvote
0
- Apr 11, 2005
- 72,827
- 9,362
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
BA - controversy has a very long history in the Church - so really we cant judge this apparition based on those who stirred the pot - and i could probably cite a good many who were heretics/apostates who stirred the pot in the Church.
Rumor mongering aside, one should actually read the messages before pronouncing condemnation on a subject they know next to nothing about.
The Church has repeatedly said there is nothing bad about this... in many times and many words.
Refusing to hear that and throwing down the gauntlet on something i could bet easy money on - that you have not read or looked into - determines whether or not you are even a party to an opinion.
Did you read them? Be honest.
If not, and i dont mean the sites that twisted the words entirely - then those who havent took the time, really arent able to voice an opinion.
Rumor mongering aside, one should actually read the messages before pronouncing condemnation on a subject they know next to nothing about.
The Church has repeatedly said there is nothing bad about this... in many times and many words.
Refusing to hear that and throwing down the gauntlet on something i could bet easy money on - that you have not read or looked into - determines whether or not you are even a party to an opinion.
Did you read them? Be honest.
If not, and i dont mean the sites that twisted the words entirely - then those who havent took the time, really arent able to voice an opinion.
Upvote
0
Maggie893
It is what it is.
Hey Davide! 
So good to see you here. And that you for the link. I'm looking forward to reading it.
This is always one of the issues that I refrain from forming an opinion on but appreciate new information on whenever I can find it.
I trust that you have prayerfully composed this site. Can't wait to get into it!
I pray you continue to be Blessed.
Maggie
So good to see you here. And that you for the link. I'm looking forward to reading it.
This is always one of the issues that I refrain from forming an opinion on but appreciate new information on whenever I can find it.
I trust that you have prayerfully composed this site. Can't wait to get into it!
I pray you continue to be Blessed.
Maggie
Upvote
0
If anyone is interested in reading the complete text of the messages, here is an online source;
Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje 1981 - present
The messages are the heart of Medjugorje. To really understand Medjugorje, one must delve into these messages and absorb them.
Davide
P.S. I didn't see the post above me..
Hi Maggie, it's good to see you as well. As I told the others, it is good to see so many familiar faces. I would have thought that after so many years there would be all new names and new faces. But this is not the case. You have all been very loyal to OBOB.
Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje 1981 - present
The messages are the heart of Medjugorje. To really understand Medjugorje, one must delve into these messages and absorb them.
Davide
P.S. I didn't see the post above me..
Hi Maggie, it's good to see you as well. As I told the others, it is good to see so many familiar faces. I would have thought that after so many years there would be all new names and new faces. But this is not the case. You have all been very loyal to OBOB.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Thank you Davide.
The official position of the Church is "Constat de non supernaturalitate" which means nothing supernatural is happening there. Two ordinaries and two commissions have concluded the same finding.
I find it difficult to see the current commission ever over-ruling that consistent finding. I'd like it to, but realistically I don't see how it can and that is after reading the messages daily and fasting on Wed and Fri for a couple of years myself.
But then again I am an incurable realist. Fr. Jozo knew this too when I met him and he prayed over me at Tehalina and I would not fall on the floor with the rest.
I'm sorry brother, and I do not say this for any other reason than to be honest, but all the positives I know of, from the CDF saying the first Ordinaries decision amounts to nothing more than his personal opinion, and that pilgrimages should be accompanied pastorally and there is nothing wrong with going there, that true devotion can be encouraged there, cannot outweigh my obedience to the consistent finding of "Constat de non supernaturalitate" which we currently have.
Should the Church ever change that official position, I will jump for joy and hold many relics blessed by Mary herself in Medjugorje that I still have left. Until that happens, we must remain flexible behind the Magisterium.
Upvote
0
- Apr 11, 2005
- 72,827
- 9,362
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
If anyone is interested in reading the complete text of the messages, here is an online source;
Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje 1981 - present
The messages are the heart of Medjugorje. To really understand Medjugorje, one must delve into these messages and absorb them.
Davide
P.S. I didn't see the post above me..
Davide, you are like an angel for me.
Every single time i mention Medjugorje [when talking to someone in person or on the phone] there you are.
I have told you this before too... its really ironic, if not miraculous.
Just recently while on the phone i mentioned i wished i could give them the messages - but had no idea where to find them.
There must a be a connection of our Lady between us... you have done this enough times now that i no longer consider it just mere coincidence.
Peace in Christ.
BTW - i finally picked the book back up regarding the life of Thomas Rutkoski. Its called Apostles of the Last Days... and how Medjugorje transformed his life - and i havent yet got half way into it.
I put it down about 2 years ago.... and recently decided i need to read it.
Me - a non avid reader..
Yea, i know....bad. Epic fail and all that.
Upvote
0
- Apr 11, 2005
- 72,827
- 9,362
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
Human nature doesnt surprise me.
Thomas knew Jesus in person, and yet he doubted.
Each have their own measure... but the good news is - even the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains.
You find it unrealistic that we can be moved to fall, i assume.
One time, in my retrospect with an unknowing obstinance i stood in front of the the Tabernacle - wayy before i understood very much of the practices, tho Catholic all my life.
I didnt know the Eucharist was held in there... and first let me say - i wasnt being obstinent in standing there - i was merely gazing at the beautiful artwork behind the Altar [i was alone in the Church]...
But what i consider obstinate was my unwillingness to prostrate myself in that spot when an unyielding and quite extraordinarily powerful and yet gentle force was pushing me to the ground to bow before the Tabernacle.
I felt this was an angel.... because though my knees refused to give way for a brief pause i had no option but to surrender.
And not only surrender... but to literally prostrate myself completely to the ground with my face on the ground.
It was humbling, and yet there was nothing to fear of that strange force.
So some may be more prone to emotionalism, and i am rather a clumsy example of any piety whatsoever, but i have no doubt faith can make the heart faint.
IF - one is completely open to the fruits of an apparition...there is no telling what causes the miraculous events to transpire..
Is it merely the heightened faith or delusion?
Or is it real...?
We dont need to be so guarded and detached when the messages are orthodox... and finally letting go can cause some major transformations.
Relax... and dont worry.
If the messages were heterodox, i would be right behind you.
Upvote
0
I don't discount spirituality for the lack of the tangible. I'd love to have the proofs St Thomas did.
Neither do I pretend something is real without credibility.
I try to integrate the spiritual and physical rationally.
I've never seen anything supernatural that cannot be explained and I know firsthand the practical drawbacks of spiritual death.
Which is not to say, I do not believe in the supernatural. If I am guarded, its only against delusions of reality which is not to say there are no mysteries.
I just do not look for signs:
He sighed from the depth of his spirit and said,
“Why does this generation seek a sign?
Amen, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
Then he left them, got into the boat again,
and went off to the other shore. ~ Mark 8
The Church says its not real. That is what I call being relaxed.
Upvote
0
- Apr 11, 2005
- 72,827
- 9,362
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
There is no official pronouncement Joab.
The Mary Page FAQ #27
There is also news concerning the future formation of a committee to review the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje in the following article by Cindy Wooden for Catholic News Service dated July 24, 2006:
From the referenced link above this sentence.... 2009/10
December 31, 2009 – Thousands of people from all over the world chose to shun traditional New Year’s Eve revelries and instead sought a holy experience in Medjugorje, Bosnia-Hercegovina.
Throngs of pilgrims converged on St. James Church and the surrounding area to take part in an historic New Year’s Eve Mass celebrated by Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, the archbishop of Vienna and an esteemed member of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cardinal Schonborn has been in Medjugorje since December 28 on what was originally thought to be a private visit. The cardinal has surprised the faithful, however, by making his visit very public. During his talk in St. James Church on December 30, 2009, he went so far as to call Medjugorje a “superpower of mercy.”
The following is a video of the Cardinal's Mass:
During his homily at the New Year’s Eve Mass, Cardinal Schonborn said the following:
“Dear brothers and sisters here in the Church and on the squares in front of the church and in the yellow hall. We are all conscious of the fact that it is a big privilege to not have to celebrate the New Year with champagne.”
The crowd laughed, and the Cardinal added “Maybe later,” which was followed by laughter and clapping.
He continued: “But now we are allowed to celebrate the beginning of the New Year with Mary and Joseph and with the child that is lying in the manger and with the shepherds. These days, we have all come to Medjugorje to be especially close to the mother of the Lord. To be more exact, we have to say that we have come here because we know that the mother of the Lord wants to be close to us..........
The Mary Page FAQ #27
There is also news concerning the future formation of a committee to review the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje in the following article by Cindy Wooden for Catholic News Service dated July 24, 2006:
Cardinal Vinko Puljic of Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, announced a commission would be formed to review the alleged Marian apparitions at Medjugorje and pastoral provisions for the thousands of pilgrims who visit the town each year.
"The commission members have not been named yet," Cardinal Puljic told Catholic News Service in a July 24 telephone interview. "I am awaiting suggestions from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" on theologians to appoint.
"But this commission will be under the (Bosnian) bishops' conference" as is the usual practice with alleged apparitions, he said.
The cardinal said he did not expect the commission to be established until sometime in September because of the Summer holidays.
He said the primary task of the commission would be to review a 1991 report from the region's bishops that concluded, "It cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations."
In addition, he said, the commission would be asked to review pastoral provisions that forbid official diocesan and parish pilgrimages to Medjugorje, while at the same time allowing priests to accompany groups of Catholics in order to provide the sacraments and spiritual guidance.
When asked if the new commission was the idea of the doctrinal congregation or of the bishops' conference, Cardinal Puljic said, "I would rather not answer that question."
Cardinal Puljic announced the future formation of the commission during the bishops' July 12-14 meeting in Banja Luka.
On June 25, thousands of pilgrims converged on Medjugorje to mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the first alleged apparition to six young people.
The Vatican continues to monitor events at Medjugorje, where the apparitions apparently continue, but it has not taken a formal position other than to support the bishops' ban on official pilgrimages.
Officials from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were not available July 24 for comment.
The most recent significant news regarding Medjugorje that we know of to date involves a Homily given by Cardinal Christoph Schonborn at a New Year's Eve Mass in Medjugorje on December 31, 2009. For more details, including video of the speech and an Englisg translation of the Cardinal's speech in its entirety, click here. "The commission members have not been named yet," Cardinal Puljic told Catholic News Service in a July 24 telephone interview. "I am awaiting suggestions from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" on theologians to appoint.
"But this commission will be under the (Bosnian) bishops' conference" as is the usual practice with alleged apparitions, he said.
The cardinal said he did not expect the commission to be established until sometime in September because of the Summer holidays.
He said the primary task of the commission would be to review a 1991 report from the region's bishops that concluded, "It cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations."
In addition, he said, the commission would be asked to review pastoral provisions that forbid official diocesan and parish pilgrimages to Medjugorje, while at the same time allowing priests to accompany groups of Catholics in order to provide the sacraments and spiritual guidance.
When asked if the new commission was the idea of the doctrinal congregation or of the bishops' conference, Cardinal Puljic said, "I would rather not answer that question."
Cardinal Puljic announced the future formation of the commission during the bishops' July 12-14 meeting in Banja Luka.
On June 25, thousands of pilgrims converged on Medjugorje to mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the first alleged apparition to six young people.
The Vatican continues to monitor events at Medjugorje, where the apparitions apparently continue, but it has not taken a formal position other than to support the bishops' ban on official pilgrimages.
Officials from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were not available July 24 for comment.
From the referenced link above this sentence.... 2009/10
Cardinal Schonborn celebrates New Year's Eve Mass in Medjugorje
December 31, 2009 – Thousands of people from all over the world chose to shun traditional New Year’s Eve revelries and instead sought a holy experience in Medjugorje, Bosnia-Hercegovina.
Throngs of pilgrims converged on St. James Church and the surrounding area to take part in an historic New Year’s Eve Mass celebrated by Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, the archbishop of Vienna and an esteemed member of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cardinal Schonborn has been in Medjugorje since December 28 on what was originally thought to be a private visit. The cardinal has surprised the faithful, however, by making his visit very public. During his talk in St. James Church on December 30, 2009, he went so far as to call Medjugorje a “superpower of mercy.”
The following is a video of the Cardinal's Mass:
During his homily at the New Year’s Eve Mass, Cardinal Schonborn said the following:
“Dear brothers and sisters here in the Church and on the squares in front of the church and in the yellow hall. We are all conscious of the fact that it is a big privilege to not have to celebrate the New Year with champagne.”
The crowd laughed, and the Cardinal added “Maybe later,” which was followed by laughter and clapping.
He continued: “But now we are allowed to celebrate the beginning of the New Year with Mary and Joseph and with the child that is lying in the manger and with the shepherds. These days, we have all come to Medjugorje to be especially close to the mother of the Lord. To be more exact, we have to say that we have come here because we know that the mother of the Lord wants to be close to us..........
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
You know what I meant P.
Look, no one wants this to pan out more than I do. I can argue both sides of the issue.
What is undeniably a serious statement from the authority of the Church is:
The current official statements have said 4 or more times: Both Bishops in charge AND both commissions; "Constat de non supernaturalitate". - Nothing supernatural is occurring.
Knowing that, one cannot willfully promote this as authentic and still remain faithful to the Church. In fact that has been forbidden. Thats all there is to it.
"On the basis of the investigation so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations."
... "As regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentication of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church."
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
(Secretary to the "Congregation" presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger)
May 26, 1998.
That was 13 years ago and nothing has changed.
More recently from the Bishop in charge:
... "In her name, 30 chosen priests and physicians, working together in three Commissions for 10 years, in more than 30 meetings, dutifully and expertly investigated the events of Medjugorje and brought forth their results of study. And not one, but twenty bishops responsibly declared that there exists no proof that the events in Medjugorje concern supernatural apparitions or revelations. The believer who respects both principles: ratio et fides, adheres to this criterion, convinced that the Church does not deceive."
February 17, 2004: MEDUGORJE: SECRETS, MESSAGES, VOCATIONS, PRAYERS, CONFESSIONS, COMMISSIONS
Homily by Bishop Ratko Peric - June 15, 2006
You should read those in thier entirety.
Upvote
0
Thanks for sharing the link.I am waiting for the Church to make a final statement on Medjugorje, but I am open to it being true. I think much of what you said on the website makes sense (I haven't read all of it yet, but I've read the common misconceptions page).
God bless
Upvote
0
Hey Davide!
So good to see you here. And that you for the link. I'm looking forward to reading it.
This is always one of the issues that I refrain from forming an opinion on but appreciate new information on whenever I can find it.
I trust that you have prayerfully composed this site. Can't wait to get into it!
I pray you continue to be Blessed.
Maggie
Hi Maggie,
It is good to see you are still around as well. All these names I remember from when Christian Forums first started (back when it was known as, if I recall, The King's Tavern). Almost 11 years since then. How time flies.
Davide
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Apr 11, 2005
- 72,827
- 9,362
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
Hi
Out of curiosity, do you happen to know if Ryan (Quanta Cura) or David (Iraneus) is still around? ...Also would like to get a hold of Heather as well (Photini).
Blessings,
Davide
Ireneaus returned, and please check out the Michelina thread.
Quanta comes in on occasion.
I repped ya, if you want to see.
Upvote
0
- Feb 5, 2002
- 166,315
- 56,041
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Upvote
0
Hi Davide . . long time no see. I wish we were meeting again under different circumstances, but sigh .. .
I had run across your info on the web and didn't realize it was yours.
Unlike others here, while its history is interesting, I cannot say I find it to be objective apologia you claim it to be, but instead find it to be very biased.
Case in point being the way it treats the subject of Bishop Zanic:
This is false.
I have followed this closely, and have read all his writings. His disapproval does not "hinge" on this at all, though it does play a significant part and it should for Mary would never, ever attack a Bishop .. . she would never, ever say the things the visionaries said she did against a Bishop and in favor of a DISOBEDIENT priest.
This is, indeed one of the most significant nails in the coffin against the authenticity of Medjugorje - For the Mother of our Lord would never speak out against a Bishop - NEVER - and would never defend disobedience to a Bishop EVER.
To say or suggest that she would is so theologically unsound that I find it baffling it could ever be supported or so easily dismissed as irrelevant.
Additionally, the claim, as I mentioned above, that his disapproval hinges on this one fact is false. I have read all he has to say on the matter and it does not hinge on this alone contrary to what is implied in your apologia . . . There are many factors also that play into his disapproval .. MANY. . including
Additionally, prominence is given to the medical investigation of the seers which was done and in a very favorable light - and the rejection of their findings by the Bishop's commission in a negative light
Yet just recently this medical investigation was entirely debunked by the most highly respected medical investigation team from Lourdes. . . the Bishops were right to reject it - it was faulty in its approach, in its examination and its conclusions. The Holy Spirit was definitely leading them in their decision, as was born out by the revelation of recent facts from Lourdes.
Basically this is a critical review and denouncment, by highly respected experts, of the claims that were made in the book reviewed above, exposing its shortcomings and failure to accomplish what the authors claim to have done; the examiners being guilty of
It is also worth noting that the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, which is working closely with the Vatican commission investigating the claims of the visionaries, releasing this report in English (which may be the first time this has happened), giving it a very wide audience, does not bode well for the visionaries or the Medjugorje phenomena.
Unfortunately, the apologia offered is not objective at all . . it is highly pro Medjugorje and highly anti Bishop Zanic and along with his supporters.
I had run across your info on the web and didn't realize it was yours.
Unlike others here, while its history is interesting, I cannot say I find it to be objective apologia you claim it to be, but instead find it to be very biased.
Case in point being the way it treats the subject of Bishop Zanic:
[1] As the bishop notes, his position on Medjugorje hinges on the fact that the Lady admonished him over his actions against the two guilty Franciscan priests, Fr. Ivica Vego and Fr. Ivan Prusina. According to him, this was sufficient proof he needed to determine the falsity of Medjugorje. And for the remaining years of his episcopate, he routinely returns to this position when other recourse fails. However, as we shall see, the Holy See opened an investigation into this matter in 1993, and over-turned the decree by the bishop, vindicating the two priests
This is false.
I have followed this closely, and have read all his writings. His disapproval does not "hinge" on this at all, though it does play a significant part and it should for Mary would never, ever attack a Bishop .. . she would never, ever say the things the visionaries said she did against a Bishop and in favor of a DISOBEDIENT priest.
This is, indeed one of the most significant nails in the coffin against the authenticity of Medjugorje - For the Mother of our Lord would never speak out against a Bishop - NEVER - and would never defend disobedience to a Bishop EVER.
To say or suggest that she would is so theologically unsound that I find it baffling it could ever be supported or so easily dismissed as irrelevant.
Additionally, the claim, as I mentioned above, that his disapproval hinges on this one fact is false. I have read all he has to say on the matter and it does not hinge on this alone contrary to what is implied in your apologia . . . There are many factors also that play into his disapproval .. MANY. . including
- the lying by the seers which continued under oath during previous investigations,
- their disobedience and the disobedience of the franciscan priests,
- the invested interest in the money generating activities surrounding the "apparition"
- the money made from pilgrimages which has given the seers involved a comfortable life style - large homes, expensive cars, etc (sounds a bit familiar with the recent Corapi scandal),
- the contradictory messages from the "apparition"
- (Ivan's most recent claim on the 4th of July that the "apparition" said
- he would no longer receive public apparitions, and
- specifically not on Apparition Hill or the at the Blue Cross, and
- that he would only receive one apparition a week and
- that would be private
- (Ivan's most recent claim on the 4th of July that the "apparition" said
Additionally, prominence is given to the medical investigation of the seers which was done and in a very favorable light - and the rejection of their findings by the Bishop's commission in a negative light
1984: While the Commission is meeting, a number of medical doctors and professors request permission to perform various tests and experiments on the children. The children are questioned and subjected to numerous tests by doctors from all over the world. They are poked with needles, burnt with matches, and tested with various medical equipment. All the doctors, without question, agree that the children are not in any way hallucinating, hysteric, neurotic, cataleptic, or pathological. Furthermore, they also rule out the possibility of deception on the part of the children. Instead, the doctors are continually impressed by how level-headed, well-mannered, and ordinary the children seem, especially under such stressful circumstances. 11
[1] Despite the positive findings of science, the bishop's Commissioner rejected this evidence as inadmissible, since the foreign doctors did not speak Serbo-Croatian and had to rely on interpreters. 12
Yet just recently this medical investigation was entirely debunked by the most highly respected medical investigation team from Lourdes. . . the Bishops were right to reject it - it was faulty in its approach, in its examination and its conclusions. The Holy Spirit was definitely leading them in their decision, as was born out by the revelation of recent facts from Lourdes.
The Diocese of Mostar-Duvno has released a report in English concerning medical and scientific studies performed on the visionaries of Medjugorje. While it was given in 1986, I believe this may be the first time we are seeing it in English.
When googling the subject, the search list turns up quite a bit of positive information about such testing of the visionaries. The Holy See, which currently has an international commission studying the phenomena, has such positive studies, but also those of a critical nature like the one from which we are seeing excerpts below. Those interested in the phenomena might want to be aware of it as we wait for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to convey the answer to the question of Medjugorje.
It is important to note that the International Medical Association of Lourdes will sometimes study cases sent by bishops who are discerning other phenomena. Many can claim a cure, and some may be truly miraculous, but few can be proven as miraculous because of the rigorous standard that must be used. Some alleged cures of certain conditions or diseases do not really qualify for further study because of the potential for lengthy remission, for example. On the other hand, when several MRI's document a growing tumor, then it suddenly disappears and is no longer traceable following an event or prayer; or when a blind person suddenly regains vision, it is easy to document. Such a case is still scrutinized to rule out other possible explanations for the cure.
The excerpts released here concern the testing of visionaries themselves.
Continued- Te Deum laudamus!: Excerpts from 1986 medical report concerning Medjugorje Visionaries released on diocesan websiteWhen googling the subject, the search list turns up quite a bit of positive information about such testing of the visionaries. The Holy See, which currently has an international commission studying the phenomena, has such positive studies, but also those of a critical nature like the one from which we are seeing excerpts below. Those interested in the phenomena might want to be aware of it as we wait for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to convey the answer to the question of Medjugorje.
It is important to note that the International Medical Association of Lourdes will sometimes study cases sent by bishops who are discerning other phenomena. Many can claim a cure, and some may be truly miraculous, but few can be proven as miraculous because of the rigorous standard that must be used. Some alleged cures of certain conditions or diseases do not really qualify for further study because of the potential for lengthy remission, for example. On the other hand, when several MRI's document a growing tumor, then it suddenly disappears and is no longer traceable following an event or prayer; or when a blind person suddenly regains vision, it is easy to document. Such a case is still scrutinized to rule out other possible explanations for the cure.
The excerpts released here concern the testing of visionaries themselves.
"The following study will focus specifically on medical expertise published in the book: “Etudes médicales et scientifiques sur les apparitions de Medjugorje” [Medical and Scientific Studies On the Apparitions At Medjugorje ] by Professor H. JOYEUX and Father R. LAURENTIN (published by O.E.I.L., 1985)."
Basically this is a critical review and denouncment, by highly respected experts, of the claims that were made in the book reviewed above, exposing its shortcomings and failure to accomplish what the authors claim to have done; the examiners being guilty of
- using poor methodology,
- using approaches that appear, to the untrained and ignorant, as though they prove something the tests can never be used to establish,
- going outside the bounds of what the tests are able to accomplish or tell one to make claims that one cannot possibly be made from such tests
- failing to do those examinations required in such cases as these visionaries present.
It is also worth noting that the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, which is working closely with the Vatican commission investigating the claims of the visionaries, releasing this report in English (which may be the first time this has happened), giving it a very wide audience, does not bode well for the visionaries or the Medjugorje phenomena.
Unfortunately, the apologia offered is not objective at all . . it is highly pro Medjugorje and highly anti Bishop Zanic and along with his supporters.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Dear Pat,
Thank you for letting me know about the Michelina thread. Reading the updates that David wrote has felt like a dagger in my heart, and I will be sure to pray for her before the Blessed Sacrament whenever I remember. I do not think there is another person on OBOB who has affected more people's lives than her.
Davide
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Mar 3, 2006
- 33,112
- 11,338
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-American-Solidarity
Upvote
0
Similar threads
