"proof For A Pre-trib Rapture"

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...your post-trib belief that Christ will take us up and yank us back down.  What is the purpose of that?...

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I believe that our being caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus' at his coming and then returning back to the earth with him will be similar to the people coming out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus and then returning back to the city with him (John 12:12-13) or the Roman Christians coming out of Rome to meet Paul and returning back to the city with him (Acts 28:15-16).

I believe that just as planes go up, then back down, for good purpose, so the rapture will serve a good purpose. We will have been gathered from all around the globe into one place in the clouds above Jerusalem so that we all might descend together with the Lord to Jerusalem. As a brother said, "God doesn't want to wait for his people to WALK to Jerusalem from all over the world."

I believe another purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Some call what you believe the YO-YO theory...

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I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures of the church.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a Yo-Yo coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns back up to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...I maintain a "keep you from the hour", which means the time of the test...

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Note that Revelation 3:10 could simply be saying that Jesus would keep the 1st century church of Philadelphia from the persecution by the Roman Emperor Domitian that was to come upon all the Roman Empire, for the Bible refers to trials in the time of the Roman Empire as happening throughout "all the world" (Acts 11:28), as it refers to the Roman Empire as "all the world" (Luke 2:1, Colossians 1:5-6). Note that even the Greek word translated "earth" in Revelation 3:10 doesn't have to refer to the entire planet, as it is the same word used in verses such as Matthew 9:26 (land) and Matthew 9:31 (country).

I believe that Jesus kept the 1st century church of Philadelphia from a time of testing that came upon the rest of the church, just as one student excused from taking a test during the hour in which it is being administered to all his fellow students, and is allowed to sit at his desk for that hour reading the Bible, doesn't have to be removed from time itself in order to be excused from the hour of testing, for it will not be an hour of testing for that student, but only for those who are being tested at that time.

Awesome posts RollinThunder. my church is full persuaded abt the pre-trib rapture and we believe we will live to see it.

For those who fight for the right to tribulate, i wonder why they dont think Jesus' suffering on their behalf was enough to satisfy God's wrath. they must still go thru some suffering to appease/please God or something. goes back to works and self righteousness. why not suffer now then, instead of wait for the tribulation?

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hi, Thunder. I explained this in post #8. What Webster says isn't really the question---but rather, how it is used in Scripture.

In Romans2, Paul admonishes repentance: "By your hard and unrepentant heart you are storing WRATH for the DAY OF WRATH---for those who by perseverance in doing good, (seeking glory and honor and immortality), eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrightousness, wrath and indignation." We have two eternal rewards here---eternal life, and wrath. WRATH = HELL.

Identically, in 1Thess5:9, "God has not destined us for wrath, but for salvation through Jesus." The whole chapter is speaking of "THE DAY OF THE LORD"---just as Romans 2 was. Jesus did not come to "save us from the Great Tribulation"---Jesus came to save us from HELL.

God has not destined us for the GREAT TRIBULATION but for salvation through Jesus? No---God has not destined us for HELL but for SALVATION through Jesus. (Through believing in Christ.)

If what you say is true, that the SAVED are not destined for TRIBULATION, then what of those who are saved DURING the Tribulation? If SAVED are not destined for wrath, will each be removed FROM the Tribulation AS HE IS SAVED???

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Excellent points here Ben.  I take those verses in a little wider scope, as in we don't receive His wrath in our lifetimes, but the question you pose is impossible for pre-trib rapturists to answer.  The "does each repentive believer go POOF on receiving Christ?" question leads to even more questions.

Originally posted by Andrew
Awesome posts RollinThunder. my church is full persuaded abt the pre-trib rapture and we believe we will live to see it.

For those who fight for the right to tribulate, i wonder why they dont think Jesus' suffering on their behalf was enough to satisfy God's wrath. they must still go thru some suffering to appease/please God or something. goes back to works and self righteousness. why not suffer now then, instead of wait for the tribulation?

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This too is a good point, except the last statement/question takes it too far.  We, as christians, all suffer now.  You sound as if all non-pre-tribbers are sinning vile people who can't wait to die in agonizing torture to prove themselves worthy.  I don't know ANY post-tribbers/pre-wrathers who feel this way, it's really a dishonest twist on our views.

Of course Jesus' sacrifice was enough, most of us non-pre-tribber-doods and doodettes believe that we will be preserved in the fire as in the book of Daniel.  God won't take us out of the fire, He'll preserve us within it.

Have we discussed 2Thess2 yet? "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together..." What does Paul mean by "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER"? This says, "The COMING (presence) of Christ and our gathering together TO HIM." How could this mean anything BUT the Rapture?

OUR GATHERING TOGETHER. Paul was aware of how we are to be "caught up" (HARPAZO) to meet with Christ in the air, when He COMES AGAIN. When Christ comes, on clouds of glory, He gathers---first the dead-in-Christ, then the living believers. There is no other possible gathering-together.

This is the Rapture, the return of Christ, the "harpazo-catching-away" of 1Thess4:16-17.

"...with regard to the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your mind or be disturbed either by a spirit or messenger or letter (as if from us), that the DAY OF THE LORD has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for IT (the 'day of the Lord') wil not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. And he who now restrains (the lawless man) will do so until he (the restrainer) is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one wil be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breth of His mouth and bring to an end by the apearance of His COMING...

THink about what Paul is saying here: Our GATHERING TOGETHER---this absolutely, undeniably, is the RAPTURE. And it cannot happen UNLESS the man of lawlessness is revealed first---is this someone other than the ANTICHRIST? Jesus' return, will DESTROY the lawless one. Bringing the END of the TRIBULATION.

Jesus' COMING---the END of the lawless man, the END of the Tribulation---our GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM.

How can there be a "Pre-Trib-Rapture"?

Originally posted by Andrew


For those who fight for the right to tribulate, i wonder why they dont think Jesus' suffering on their behalf was enough to satisfy God's wrath. they must still go thru some suffering to appease/please God or something. goes back to works and self righteousness. why not suffer now then, instead of wait for the tribulation?

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Apparently, Andrew, you are having the same problem as Rolling T. in your obvious mis-understanding of what the great tribulation is.
How can you argue against post tribbers when you don't even know what they believe ?

Noone believes the great tribulation is God's wrath (except a few confused novices ). WE KNOW from the Word of God that the 'great tribulation' is the AFFLICTION and PERSECUTION against the JEWS & CHRISTIANS brought on by Antichrist and his people.

We don't believe the great tribulation is God's wrath -THAT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!
The Tribulation is not something that GOD is doing, but Satan himself is doing it. Be very careful that you do not ascribe to GOD things for which the devil is really responsible, and vice versa---Jesus said in Matt12:25-32, such a thing is blasphemy.

So your question as to whether Christ's sacrifice satisfied God's wrath is a moot point. Of course it did, BUT IT DID NOT EXEMPT YOU OR ANY OF US FROM SUFFERING & PERSECUTION AT THE HANDS OF SATAN & SATAN'S PEOPLE! ...which is exactly what happens in the great tribulation. If you don't think so read the verses below.

Faithful1


"Woe unto the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, HAVING GREAT WRATH.....And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child". Rev.12



edited for bordering on violating Rule #1...

Originally posted by JesusServant
TWe, as christians, all suffer now.  You sound as if all non-pre-tribbers are sinning vile people who can't wait to die in agonizing torture to prove themselves worthy.  I don't know ANY post-tribbers/pre-wrathers who feel this way, it's really a dishonest twist on our views.

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Amen to that statement, JS.
This dishonesty seems to be prevalent among pre-tribbers in general - not so much on this forum ; and I certainly would not have expected it from 'rollingThunder', especially since I took so much time explaining to him the truth of what we believe just a few posts back!!
They are misquoting us; but when one's belief is so stubborn, there may be no other recourse. Don't worry, we all answer to God.

As is usually the case, once a person's mind is made up "don't try to bother them with the truth"! I guess I can't complain since I used to be just like Andrew and 'rolling Thunder' - IT took God Himself to step in and change my mind!!

Faithful1

Just remember Moses had the same problem:
"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth..."

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies..."



Edited for violating Rule#1, "no flaming"...

Faithful1,

if you want to be a 'spectator' while the tribulation is happening, help yourself. But you'll be glad you dont have to when Jesus takes you up.

btw Daniel went thru the 'wrath' of a heathen King. The tribulation is the wrath of God on the world. Just like in Sodom it was God's judgement. Not man's. so there's a big diff.

Pul wrote Thess as an encouragement to believers, telling them abt how they are not appointed to wrath and how God has made a way of escape by way of rapture.

Your doctrine that tells brethren that they have to go thru the tribulation whether suffering it or as a spectator never brings any joy, peace or comfort to the believer but fear. That's how its plain to see that such teachings are not from the Holy Spirit -- there is no witness of the peace from above.

IOW: no beleiver will ever come out of a post or mid trib sermon feeling encouraged and full of joy in the Holy Ghost.

(Moderator hat "ON")
Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

People who believe in "PRE-TRIB-RAPTURE" are not evil; people who believe in "POST-TRIB-RAPTURE" are not evil. We strive for common fellowship and maturing, admonishing each other towards the image of Christ, encouraging and gently rebuking in love. We should not engage in name-calling, throwing around terms like "liar" and "blasphemer".

(Moderator hat "OFF")...

Originally posted by Andrew


btw Daniel went thru the 'wrath' of a heathen King. The tribulation is the wrath of God on the world. ....

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Ha Ha; Total heresy and you know it, Andrew. You think I'm going to believe you rather than the Scriptures?

Better go back and find out what the word "tribulation" means. It is never used in scripture to means "Wrath" . The greek word is "thlipsis" and it is NEVER translated as 'wrath'. It is always
translated "afflictions" , "tribulation" and 'persecution". And it Always means the afflictions and persecutions placed upon the Saints by Satan and the world.

I noticed that you have not been able to produce one scripture that SAYS the great tribulation is God's wrath.. Go read Revel. chapter 12; Maybe you will understand it; its a description of the great tribulation and it describes Satan's wrath against the Jews AND the Christians.

When Jesus said, "There shall be a time of great tribulation', he used "thlipsis", meaning persecutions; in fact, in Luke, the SAME verse is translated "time of great affliction".
I really have to laugh at your ignorance of God's Word.


What you are doing is blaming God for the tribulation that Satan causes, and that is considered BLASPHEMY.

We all know you don't WANT to suffer, Andrew.... But if you want to be a Christian you're going to have to suffer- But try to get over it. Instead of trying to re-write the Bible why don't you just accept it? - If you want to enter God's Kingdom, you are going to have to suffer.


Faithful1

Apostle Paul said, "We, through much tribulation ('thlipsis') must enter the kingdom of God"

Originally posted by Andrew
Faithful1,

if you want to be a 'spectator' while the tribulation is happening, help yourself. But you'll be glad you dont have to when Jesus takes you up.

btw Daniel went thru the 'wrath' of a heathen King. The tribulation is the wrath of God on the world. Just like in Sodom it was God's judgement. Not man's. so there's a big diff.

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Argh, if you don't know what I meant talking about the book of Daniel and being preserved in the fire, then you need to read the book of Daniel again brother...

Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah) were tossed into fire for not bowing down to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar was forcing everyone in Babylon to bow down before (kind of like Sadaam today).  When they were tossed into the fire, Daniel could and everyone else could see a figure moving around in the fire preserving all three of them and the fire did not harm them.  This is an example and symbolic to me how God preserves us in the fire in every day life and Christians in the great trib.  He doesn't pull us out of the fire, he preserves us IN it.

P.S.  Who do you think that figure was that swirled around and protected them in the fire?

I'm new!

Tribulation is not wrath. Both are different definition.

Tribulation is trials, troubles, problems, persecutions, sufferings.

Wrath is angry, punish.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. But, we are not appointed for the wrath - 1 Thess. 5:9.

Wrath is for to punish all unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, go to hell.

You will notice in the book of Revelation never saying the wrath will pour upon the Christians. Revelation telling us, the wrath pour upon the unbelievers who will receive the mark of the beast only.

Jesus tells us, we must suffer tribulations - John 16:33. But, we should be cheerful, because Christ already victory at the Calvary - John 16:33.

Apostle Paul telling us, that we must through MUCH tribulations - Acts 14:22.

Christ will not come till AFTER tribulaiton - Matt 24:29. We will be gathering together at Lord's coming - Matt 24:31; 1 Thess 4:17; and 2 Thess 2:1 too AFTER the tribulation - Matt 24:29.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...I am referring to the seven year tribulation period, otherwise known as Jacob's trouble...

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Does the Bible say that the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7-8) will be the entire tribulation?

If we equate the time of Jacob's trouble with the entire tribulation, then are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

Note the similarity between Jeremiah 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble" and Daniel 12:1's "time of trouble," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "so that none is like it" and Daniel 12:1's "such as never was," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "he shall be saved out of it" and Daniel 12:1's "at that time thy people shall be delivered."

Daniel 12:1 (and so Jeremiah 30:7) will occur after all of the events of Daniel 11, and will be right before Israel's resurrection (at the 2nd coming) in Daniel 12:2, just as Jeremiah 30:7 will be right before Israel's deliverance (at the 2nd coming) in Jeremiah 30:8.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Then the next 3 1/2 years will be God's wrath of His fury.  It's all God's wrath...

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Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...because God is sending satan here to test the ones who refused to surrender to Him the first time.  So satan will be loosed, but under God's permission...

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Regarding all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation, could it be as complex as the case with Job, where we know everything against him came directly from Satan, yet God still allowed everything, circumscribed everything that happened, yet nothing that happened was in any way God's wrath against Job?

Originally posted by Andrew
...my church is full persuaded abt the pre-trib rapture...

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Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?

Originally posted by Andrew
...Your doctrine that tells brethren that they have to go thru the tribulation whether suffering it or as a spectator never brings any joy...

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Note that the joy of believers is based on hope, which is not mutually exclusive with going through tribulation:

"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).

Going through tribulation even works hope:

"We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Originally posted by Andrew
...peace...

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Note that for Christians, peace of mind and tribulation are not mutually exclusive:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

Originally posted by Andrew
...or comfort to the believer...

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Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:

"I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

"To comfort you concerning your faith: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:2-4).

In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).

Originally posted by Andrew
...but fear...

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I believe we all -- whether we are pre-trib or post-trib -- must in these days begin to face and get free of any fear of tribulation and any fear of death, as Christians have always been exhorted to:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).

"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).

"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).