Who is Gog?

Ezekiel
38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him


The Lord addresses "gog" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with respect to Israel's return to the land of Israel at the end of this current age. The vision begins by addressing satan and his early involvement with the post flood inhabitants of the land area of Magog, son of Japheth, and his brothers. [Genesis 10:1-2]

Careful study of Ezekiel's vision and other related scriptures are necessary in order to identify gog [satan] and his involvement with humanity over a very broad time frame.

This includes his connection to both the spirit world, human kings, and the human organizations contained within the dominions of the human kings and their kingdoms.

There are some identifiers and other links to be considered which will lead to the realization that gog is not human. This entity has angelic characteristics which can be determined by studying the identifiers and the links given in scripture.

Gog is identified by other biblical prophets as being connected with different human rulers, in different geographical areas, at different times, over periods which exceed the limitations of human life span. [Ezekiel 38:17]

The Lord's angelic creatures do not age and are the same today as they were at their creation in the beginning. This angelic trait allows for perpetual involvement over vast time periods. [Job 38:4-7; Ezekiel 28:11-19; Revelation 20:1-3]

He notes that gog is a subject of many of the prophets, yet he is referred to as "gog" in only one other place in scripture in the book of Revelation. This must mean that he is identified by different profiles and agencies in the visions of the other prophets. [Ezekiel 38:17]

All other references refer to him or his agents by some other name or title. For example, Daniel sees the prince that is to come (Abaddon-Apollyon) in the little horn (a human king). Both of these entities will be empowered and directed by satan. {Daniel 7:7; 8:9-12; 8:25-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 17:8]

Gog is described as the chief angelic prince, in this case, of Mesheck and Tubal [the early post flood settlements of Magog's brothers. The term "prince" is usually applied to an angelic ruler in prophetic scripture who rules over, influences, and operates through human kings [horns]. [Ezekiel 38:2]

The term "chief prince" indicates that gog is the ruler or leader of others of the same kind. The Hebrew word "rosh" used for chief is not in reference to "Russia" as some teach, but should be translated as "chief" or "head" prince.

The title of "prince" is revealed to Daniel in describing angelic activity related to the archangel Michael's battle against the opposing forces of the princes of Persia and of Grecia. [Daniel 10:13-20]

The title of prince is used by the Lord when addressing the human king of Tyre. The message goes beyond the king to another entity who apparently has interaction and control over the king. [Ezekiel 28:11-19]

Isaiah contains references addressed to the prince of Babylon and to Lucifer. These are descriptions of satan's existence as an angelic being and his connection with humanity. [Isaiah 14:12-17]

Another angelic prince that "shall come" will be revealed at the end of this age during Israel's 70th week [the tribulation period of the Lord's coming judgment]. Daniel contrasts this entity with the Lord, the Messiah, the Prince that was "cut off". [Daniel 9:26-27]

This prince will stand against (oppose) the Prince of Princes, who is the Lord Jesus Christ. The result of the conflict will be the destruction of this prince [first beast of Revelation] in the lake of fire at Armageddon. [Revelation 19:20]

Other references to satan and his agents in the visions of the prophets include the Assyrian, prince of Persia, prince of Grecia, the beast, Abaddon-Apollyon, king of the abyss, the destroyer, man of lawless, and son of perdition. [Micah 5; Daniel 10; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1, 17:8; 2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Satan plays the role of "chief prince" when his angelic agents are functional. He is the power behind them as they do his bidding on the earth in relation to the influence and control of human kings and their dominions. [Ezekiel 38:2; Revelation 12:3-12; 13:1-2; 17:8]

Abaddon-Appolyon is satan's (gog's) angelic agent for all seven heads (human dominions, kingdoms) as they are defined in Revelation 13 and 17. He is the beast from the abyss .... the first beast of Revelation.

It is clearly stated that this "beast" [Abaddon-Apollyon] has seven heads [kingdoms]. Five have fallen (are historical), and the other two will exist in sequence during the 70th week decreed for Israel ... the Lord's hour of trial and the time of "Jacob's trouble". [Jeremiah 30; Revelation 3:10; 17:7-13]

Abaddon-Apollyon's connection with the seven human king "positions" is limited to influence and control. He is "of the seven" and is connected with all of them.

This limitation will change when the Lord allows him to become the eighth king himself by an actual incarnation. This is the "lie" and strong delusion that the Lord will send against an unbelieving world [2Thessalonians 2].

It will occur during the little horn's [human king's] rule in the seventh king "position". "Of the seven" can also be translated "of the seventh" which more specifically describes Abaddon-Apollyon's connection with the little horn at the time of the end]. [Revelation 17:11]

He will then become the 8th king himself. This manifestation will be exceptionally unique to humans who experience his presence. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

The little horn will expand his sixth Middle Eastern dominion toward the south, the east, and toward Israel by forming alliances and by conquest. [Daniel 8:9; 8:23-25; 11:36-44]

He will be occupying the seventh king position of his seventh dominion when Abaddon-Apollyon becomes the eighth king himself by incarnating [possessing] the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

Abaddon-Apollyon will rule directly as an angelic king over most of the Middle East for a 42 month period [1,260 days] which will occur during the last half of the 70th week decreed for Israel. [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

He will be destroyed by the Lord in the lake of fire at the end of the next 30 day period, and satan will captured be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:20, 20:1-3]

Revelation 20 also records satan's future release after the 1,000 years and his attempt to deceive the nations once more. He is referred to as gog again, and all of the nations involved are referred to symbolically as Magog. [Revelation 20:7-10]

The Lord addresses satan as gog in Ezekiel and Revelation because of his early connections with the inhabitants of the land of Magog shortly after the flood.

The focus of Bible prophecy presents the view of satan's activities specifically in the northern regions of the Middle East [upper Tigris River basin]. [Ezekiel 38:15; Micah 5]

I believe this is because of the area's position in relation to Eden, Mount Ararat, and its northern interface with the land of Israel.

The larger land areas of the early habitations of humans in the Middle East shortly after the flood are described in the Bible as the land of Egypt, the land of Canaan, the land of Magog, and the land of Shinar.

These lands formed a crescent shape from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf starting with the land of Egypt and ending with the and of Shinar [southern Babylonia] in clockwise order.

The land of Israel was developed later which replaced part of the land of Canaan on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean.

The general area of the ancient land of Magog today includes parts of northeastern Syria, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, and Armenia and Georgia.

It is currently inhabited by a mixed group of original ethnic tribal ancestry plus genetic lineage from the other land areas of the Middle East.

The current populations located in the original ancient land of Magog are mainly Turkoman, Assyrian, Kurdish, Iranian (Medes and Persians), and Arab. The predominant religion is Islam. This common theology will have significance with regard to the coming end time events.

This is the geographical area where satan's beast [Abaddon-Apollyon incarnated in the little horn] will arise to power in the Middle East at the beginning of the time of the end of this present age .... ten other kings will rise with him. [Daniel 7:19-20; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; Revelation 13:1, 17:12-18]

Why does the Lord addressed satan as gog, connect him with the land of Magog, and identify him as the chief prince of Mesheck and Tubal?

Why does the Lord call him out of his place in the northern Middle East to attack a regathered Israel in the land of Israel at the end of this age?

The Lord has allowed satan to rule over this northern geographical area, from shortly after the flood and continuously through Greek rule just before the first century.

The visions of the prophets indicate his presence in the same geographical area at the time of the end. Included are the original land of Magog, the Akkadian/Assyrian Empire, and the subsequent empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.

All of these human dominions were centered in the ancient Middle East with connections to the northern area of the fertile crescent. This same area will be satan's base of operation at the time of the end.

His human agents will come from his place out of the north, the ancient area of the land of Magog [northern Iraq], with the objective of gaining control of the Middle East and destroying the nation of Israel.

Satan's strategy for this event will include Abaddon-Apollyon, the false prophet who will appear in the land of Israel, and the little horn who will become the human manifestation of Abaddon-Apollyon.

The little horn is seen in the visions coming out of the northern division of Alexander's ancient divided empire at the time of the end. There is a breach in the visions from the ending of the ancient Syrio/Babylonian domination and the beginning of the little horn's appearance at the time of the end. He will expand his control over most of the Middle East.[Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25]

The important identifier will be the location of his original base of operation at the time of the end, and not necessarily his ethnic origin. He does not have to be a direct descendant of Magog, although this is a possibility, but he must appear in the area of the ancient land of Magog. [Ezekiel 38, 39}

Satan is the "chief angelic prince", as indicated in one of his former relationships with the ancient trading centers of Mesheck and Tubal. Magog's younger brothers were the founders of these two early and prominent commercial centers of trade.[Ezekiel 27:13; 38:2]

The Lord addresses satan as gog in Ezekiel 38 and satan is called gog again in Revelation 20. The ancient land of Magog in the Middle East has been and will be satan's point of origin and focus upon the earth at the time of the end.

Russia


.

It seems as though you draw the conclusion yourself no?

A leader from Turkey.

"A leader from Turkey"

>This is possible and here is why:

>The ancient land of the post flood settlements of Magog and his brothers Mesheck and Tubal included eastern Asia Minor [Turkey]

>However I would sugest the region of northern Iraq today .... this land is more central to the core of the ancient Assyrian Empire at Nineveh

>This ancient city tel [digging] is just across the Tigris from Mosul, Iraq

>Here is one of the biblical descriptions of the "antichrist [Micah 5:5-6]

>The region of his appearance will be where the borders of the modern Middle Eastern states of Syria [Lebanon], Turkey, Iraq, and Iran are conjoined

Gog is a devil-empowered leader of the Northern armies that invade Israel, whom God steps in and destroys for the sake of the elect when the day of the Lord/day of wrath is about to begin.

Their invasion is found not only in Ezek 38 and 39, but also in Isaiah 17, Joel 2, as well as Revelation 12.

Ezekiel 38:2
Rosh=Tiras


Posts containing Gog+Magog+Meshech+Tubal

Threads containing Gog+Magog+Meshech+Tubal

Truth Files said:

Ezekiel
38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him


The Lord addresses "gog" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with respect to Israel's return to the land of Israel at the end of this current age. The vision begins by addressing satan and his early involvement with the post flood inhabitants of the land area of Magog, son of Japheth, and his brothers. [Genesis 10:1-2]

Careful study of Ezekiel's vision and other related scriptures are necessary in order to identify gog [satan] and his involvement with humanity over a very broad time frame.

This includes his connection to both the spirit world, human kings, and the human organizations contained within the dominions of the human kings and their kingdoms.

There are some identifiers and other links to be considered which will lead to the realization that gog is not human. This entity has angelic characteristics which can be determined by studying the identifiers and the links given in scripture.

Gog is identified by other biblical prophets as being connected with different human rulers, in different geographical areas, at different times, over periods which exceed the limitations of human life span. [Ezekiel 38:17]

The Lord's angelic creatures do not age and are the same today as they were at their creation in the beginning. This angelic trait allows for perpetual involvement over vast time periods. [Job 38:4-7; Ezekiel 28:11-19; Revelation 20:1-3]

He notes that gog is a subject of many of the prophets, yet he is referred to as "gog" in only one other place in scripture in the book of Revelation. This must mean that he is identified by different profiles and agencies in the visions of the other prophets. [Ezekiel 38:17]

All other references refer to him or his agents by some other name or title. For example, Daniel sees the prince that is to come (Abaddon-Apollyon) in the little horn (a human king). Both of these entities will be empowered and directed by satan. {Daniel 7:7; 8:9-12; 8:25-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 17:8]

Gog is described as the chief angelic prince, in this case, of Mesheck and Tubal [the early post flood settlements of Magog's brothers. The term "prince" is usually applied to an angelic ruler in prophetic scripture who rules over, influences, and operates through human kings [horns]. [Ezekiel 38:2]

The term "chief prince" indicates that gog is the ruler or leader of others of the same kind. The Hebrew word "rosh" used for chief is not in reference to "Russia" as some teach, but should be translated as "chief" or "head" prince.

The title of "prince" is revealed to Daniel in describing angelic activity related to the archangel Michael's battle against the opposing forces of the princes of Persia and of Grecia. [Daniel 10:13-20]

The title of prince is used by the Lord when addressing the human king of Tyre. The message goes beyond the king to another entity who apparently has interaction and control over the king. [Ezekiel 28:11-19]

...Other references to satan and his agents in the visions of the prophets include the Assyrian, prince of Persia, prince of Grecia, the beast, Abaddon-Apollyon, king of the abyss, the destroyer, man of lawless, and son of perdition. [Micah 5; Daniel 10; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1, 17:8; 2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Satan plays the role of "chief prince" when his angelic agents are functional. He is the power behind them as they do his bidding on the earth in relation to the influence and control of human kings and their dominions. [Ezekiel 38:2; Revelation 12:3-12; 13:1-2; 17:8]

Abaddon-Appolyon is satan's (gog's) angelic agent for all seven heads (human dominions, kingdoms) as they are defined in Revelation 13 and 17. He is the beast from the abyss .... the first beast of Revelation.

It is clearly stated that this "beast" [Abaddon-Apollyon] has seven heads [kingdoms]. Five have fallen (are historical), and the other two will exist in sequence during the 70th week decreed for Israel ... the Lord's hour of trial and the time of "Jacob's trouble". [Jeremiah 30; Revelation 3:10; 17:7-13]

Abaddon-Apollyon's connection with the seven human king "positions" is limited to influence and control. He is "of the seven" and is connected with all of them.

This limitation will change when the Lord allows him to become the eighth king himself by an actual incarnation. This is the "lie" and strong delusion that the Lord will send against an unbelieving world [2Thessalonians 2].

It will occur during the little horn's [human king's] rule in the seventh king "position". "Of the seven" can also be translated "of the seventh" which more specifically describes Abaddon-Apollyon's connection with the little horn at the time of the end]. [Revelation 17:11]

He will then become the 8th king himself. This manifestation will be exceptionally unique to humans who experience his presence. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

The little horn will expand his sixth Middle Eastern dominion toward the south, the east, and toward Israel by forming alliances and by conquest. [Daniel 8:9; 8:23-25; 11:36-44]

He will be occupying the seventh king position of his seventh dominion when Abaddon-Apollyon becomes the eighth king himself by incarnating [possessing] the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

Abaddon-Apollyon will rule directly as an angelic king over most of the Middle East for a 42 month period [1,260 days] which will occur during the last half of the 70th week decreed for Israel. [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

He will be destroyed by the Lord in the lake of fire at the end of the next 30 day period, and satan will captured be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:20, 20:1-3]

Revelation 20 also records satan's future release after the 1,000 years and his attempt to deceive the nations once more. He is referred to as gog again, and all of the nations involved are referred to symbolically as Magog. [Revelation 20:7-10]

The Lord addresses satan as gog in Ezekiel and Revelation because of his early connections with the inhabitants of the land of Magog shortly after the flood.

The focus of Bible prophecy presents the view of satan's activities specifically in the northern regions of the Middle East [upper Tigris River basin]. [Ezekiel 38:15; Micah 5]

I believe this is because of the area's position in relation to Eden, Mount Ararat, and its northern interface with the land of Israel.

The larger land areas of the early habitations of humans in the Middle East shortly after the flood are described in the Bible as the land of Egypt, the land of Canaan, the land of Magog, and the land of Shinar.

These lands formed a crescent shape from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf starting with the land of Egypt and ending with the and of Shinar [southern Babylonia] in clockwise order.

The land of Israel was developed later which replaced part of the land of Canaan on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean.

The general area of the ancient land of Magog today includes parts of northeastern Syria, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, and Armenia and Georgia.

It is currently inhabited by a mixed group of original ethnic tribal ancestry plus genetic lineage from the other land areas of the Middle East.

The current populations located in the original ancient land of Magog are mainly Turkoman, Assyrian, Kurdish, Iranian (Medes and Persians), and Arab. The predominant religion is Islam. This common theology will have significance with regard to the coming end time events.

This is the geographical area where satan's beast [Abaddon-Apollyon incarnated in the little horn] will arise to power in the Middle East at the beginning of the time of the end of this present age .... ten other kings will rise with him. [Daniel 7:19-20; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; Revelation 13:1, 17:12-18]

Why does the Lord addressed satan as gog, connect him with the land of Magog, and identify him as the chief prince of Mesheck and Tubal?

Why does the Lord call him out of his place in the northern Middle East to attack a regathered Israel in the land of Israel at the end of this age?

The Lord has allowed satan to rule over this northern geographical area, from shortly after the flood and continuously through Greek rule just before the first century.

The visions of the prophets indicate his presence in the same geographical area at the time of the end. Included are the original land of Magog, the Akkadian/Assyrian Empire, and the subsequent empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.

All of these human dominions were centered in the ancient Middle East with connections to the northern area of the fertile crescent. This same area will be satan's base of operation at the time of the end.

His human agents will come from his place out of the north, the ancient area of the land of Magog [northern Iraq], with the objective of gaining control of the Middle East and destroying the nation of Israel.

Satan's strategy for this event will include Abaddon-Apollyon, the false prophet who will appear in the land of Israel, and the little horn who will become the human manifestation of Abaddon-Apollyon.

The little horn is seen in the visions coming out of the northern division of Alexander's ancient divided empire at the time of the end. There is a breach in the visions from the ending of the ancient Syrio/Babylonian domination and the beginning of the little horn's appearance at the time of the end. He will expand his control over most of the Middle East.[Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25]

The important identifier will be the location of his original base of operation at the time of the end, and not necessarily his ethnic origin. He does not have to be a direct descendant of Magog, although this is a possibility, but he must appear in the area of the ancient land of Magog. [Ezekiel 38, 39}

Satan is the "chief angelic prince", as indicated in one of his former relationships with the ancient trading centers of Mesheck and Tubal. Magog's younger brothers were the founders of these two early and prominent commercial centers of trade.[Ezekiel 27:13; 38:2]

The Lord addresses satan as gog in Ezekiel 38 and satan is called gog again in Revelation 20. The ancient land of Magog in the Middle East has been and will be satan's point of origin and focus upon the earth at the time of the end.

Click to expand...

These are interesting interpretations. But that is all they are.

The ancient scholars and most modern scholars do not agree that the Hebrew word rsh in Ezekiel 38:2 should be considered the word chief instead of the name Rosh.

There is some basis for interpreting Gog as a demon. But that basis is by no means conclusive. If the Gog in Revelation 20 is indeed the same individual as the Gog in Ezekiel 38 and 39, then he is indeed a demon. But is is simply an assumption that these two prophecies refer to the same individual.

If the prophets of "old time" mentioned in Ezekiel 17 are indeed other prophets whose words have not been preserved, then he was mentioned by prophets other than Ezekiel and John. But this term could also refer to Ezekiel himself, spoken as said to Gog when he actually comes.

There is no basis for assuming that the term "the land of Magog" refers to the area originally settled by Magog. At the time the Lord made this proclamation through Ezekiel, the land of Magog was unquestionably the southern portion of Russia.

Nor is there any basis for assuming that Magog originally settled in the middle east. No scripture says this, and although I personally devoted literally years to the study, I have never noticed even one ancient document that says such a thing. I ask you once again (this is now my third request) to produce evidence to back up this claim.

And the invasion by Gog is a totally different attack from the invasions by the Assyrian and by the Beast. These three invasions take place at different times, they are directed against different locations in Israel, and they have different immediate and long term results. This is clearly shown by a careful study of the details contained in the prophecies. If anyone is interested, I will try to find the time to point these out.

Here is what I would recommend for you to do:

If you have a Bible search [by subject] engine type in "land of" and you will find that the major land areas of the Middle East were divided up in to 4 significant lands after the flood:

The lands of Egypt, Canaan, Magog, and Shinar

If one looks in clockwise fashion one will discover where the land of Magog was located in relation to the other 3 [the land of Israel was later carved out of psrt of the land of Canaan]

I found a website for you that gives a simple explanation of this same setting and provides a fairly accurate mapping

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/PForum/Moscow7.htm

You will just have to decide for yourself where Exekiel is to set his face against

And I will tell you that gog is actually satan who is addressed in both Exekiel 38; 39 .... and in Revelation 20 1000 years later [Ezekiel 38:17]

No other prophet calls satan "gog"... but satan is the subject by his angelic and human agents who are identified .... and it is satan who stands behind them

He is the one who will contrive an attack upon a regathered remanent part of Israel at the time of the end .... he has done it before, and he is going to do it again during the 70th week decreed for the nation

And his final rebellion will again be against Israel at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom 1000 years later

Truth Files said:

Here is what I would recommend for you to do:

If you have a Bible search [by subject] engine type in "land of" and you will find that the major land areas of the Middle East were divided up in to 4 significant lands after the flood:

The lands of Egypt, Canaan, Magog, and Shinar

If one looks in clockwise fashion one will discover where the land of Magog was located in relation to the other 3 [the land of Israel was later carved out of psrt of the land of Canaan]

Click to expand...

I take this as an admission that you have no evidence to offer.

I found a website for you that gives a simple explanation of this same setting and provides a fairly accurate mapping

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/PForum/Moscow7.htm

Click to expand...

The information on this website is historically inaccurate.

You will just have to decide for yourself where Exekiel is to set his face against

And I will tell you that gog is actually satan who is addressed in both Exekiel 38; 39 .... and in Revelation 20 1000 years later [Ezekiel 38:17]

No other prophet calls satan "gog"... but satan is the subject by his angelic and human agents who are identified .... and it is satan who stands behind them

He is the one who will contrive an attack upon a regathered remanent part of Israel at the time of the end .... he has done it before, and he is going to do it again during the 70th week decreed for the nation

And his final rebellion will again be against Israel at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom 1000 years later

Click to expand...

The truth is, that that there is absolutely no scripture whatsoever that says that Magog ever had any connection with the middle east.

He was a son of Japeth, and by the sons of Japeth "were the isles of the gentiles divided." Genesis 10:5.

I would say that your reluctance to understand this truth is most likely because you have just not been in the study long enough

Grasping the foundational truth of a post-flood and future Middle East is essential if one wants to gain the Lord's view of His prophetic scope

This discernment of the student of the prophetic visions requires three things:

An in depth and extensive knowledge of the scope and detail of all of the prophetic visions

A substantial study of recorded history .... both ancient and modern

The inspired insight that the Lord will give over time to the task

The first post-flood settlements indicated in scripture were all in the Middle East proper and this same region is in view and related to the Lord's projections for the time of the end of this present age [Genesis 10; 11; Ezekiel 38]

Truth Files said:

I would say that your reluctance to understand this truth is most likely because you have just not been in the study long enough

Click to expand...

I do not like boasting, in myself or in others. But since you say this, I will simply answer that I have been involved in intensive study of this subject for considerably longer that the thirty years and counting that you have claimed.

I have now been involved in intensive study (not just reading) of the scriptures for about 49 years, and of prophecy for at least 44 years.

And I am not "reluctant to understand" the "truth" you are espousing. I am pointing out undeniable facts that prove that your ideas are based on both Biblical and historical errors. You pointed out one error in what I said, and I recognized that you were correct. But you simply denied all the rest of the facts I have pointed out. You have not answered them, because you cannot. When asked for documentation of the "historical" facts you allege, you were unable to produce even one item. And even when asked for proof, you could not demonstrate that the Bible says Magog settled in the Middle East. You cannot demonstrate this because the Bible does not say this. The Bible says he, as one of the sons of Japeth, settled somewhere in "the isles of the gentiles."

Grasping the foundational truth of a post-flood and future Middle East is essential if one wants to gain the Lord's view of His prophetic scope

Click to expand...

This is simply incorrect.

This discernment of the student of the prophetic visions requires three things:

An in depth and extensive knowledge of the scope and detail of all of the prophetic visions

Click to expand...

To this, I devoted literally decades.

A substantial study of recorded history .... both ancient and modern

Click to expand...

To this, I devoted many years, keeping copious notes.

The inspired insight that the Lord will give over time to the task

Click to expand...

Everyone who claims to be a teacher, particularly of some new doctrine, claims that the Lord revealed it to him.

The first post-flood settlements indicated in scripture were all in the Middle East proper

Click to expand...

I have already presented proof that this is simply not correct.

and this same region is in view and related to the Lord's projections for the time of the end of this present age [Genesis 10; 11; Ezekiel 38]

Click to expand...

Your concentration on the Middle East is completely misdirected. The concentration of Bible prophecy is not on the Middle East, but on Israel. Other nations are mentioned in regard to their relative effects on Israel. If you miss the fact that the subject is Israel, you will never even begin to understand it.

You know what I believe about Israel and the nation's central position and role in the Middle East ..... you comment here sounds like a diversion from the discussion

I would have to say that I am suspicious of your claims since absolutely no one with even a basic understanding knows that the Bible's focus is on the Middle East including the past Empires that have ruled there .... Assyria, Babylon. Persia, Grecia

Are you actualy ignorant of these facts .... or maybe you are just trying to win an argument?

I suspect it is the latter .... what is your objective?

Truth Files said:

You know what I believe about Israel and the nation's central position and role in the Middle East ..... you comment here sounds like a diversion from the discussion

I would have to say that I am suspicious of you claims since absolutely no one with even a basic understanding knows that the Bible's focus is on the Middle East including the past Empires that have ruled there .... Assyria, Babylon. Persia, Grecia

Are you actualy ignorant of these facts .... or maybe you are just trying to win an argument?

I suspect it is the latter .... what is your objective?

Click to expand...

No, I am not trying to win an argument. I am exposing bad doctrine.

The Bible's focus is not on the middle east generally, but on Israel. Most of the material in the Bible is about the middle east because most of the nations that interacted with ancient Israel were in the middle east. But the focus was not on the area generally, but on the nation of Israel.

You say you are suspicious of my claims, but you are the one who has been unable to cite material to back up your opinions. I have cited explicit statements from the Bible and from numerous other ancient documents. You have not been able to cite anything, even an explicitly stated passage from the Bible, to back up your opinions. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of ancient geography knows that many of the nations mentioned in Bible prophecy were not in the middle east. The fact that you are ignorant of this is proof that your studies, regardless of how much time you spent on them, have been either of only a most cursory nature or restricted to highly prejudiced modern writings.

the back cover of my 300 page book titled "Keys to Bible Prophecy" reads:

Based on the principle that the Bible is the word of God, this book presents a new approach to the study of the prophetic scriptures. The deep, mysterious parts of the subject are simply left out. Instead, the book concentrates on prophecies which are stated in plain words. As such, it is not about things that might happen, but things that will most certainly happen. Interpretation, while not completely eliminated, has been reduced as far as seemed practical. Thoroughly cross referenced and indexed, this book is suitable for use both as a textbook and for reference.


Dr. Ed Hindson, Assistant Chancellor of Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia and Dean of the prestigious Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy, says “‘Keys to Bible Prophecy’ is one of the most interesting and insightful studies available today. This fascinating book is must reading for anyone interested in what the Bible says about the future.”


Arno Froese, editor of the end times magazine “Midnight Call,” said of this book: “I find the material to be of exceptional value relating to instruction, correction, reproof, and simplicity. I can highly recommend your book to all Bible-believing Christians, particularly those who take careful notice of eschatology... I pray that this book will find wide distribution for the edification of the Church.”


About the author:

James C. Morris is an internationally published author
and Bible teacher. He has devoted many years to the
study of Bible prophecy. This has included years of
original research in ancient books, maps, monuments,
and records to identify the ancient places and nations
involved, cross-checked against the most up-to-date
scholarship available.

Truth Files said:

Abaddon-Apollyon's connection with the seven human king "positions" is limited to influence and control. He is "of the seven" and is connected with all of them.

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How can Abaddon (as the beast) be connected to influence and control of the seven human kings, when he was in the bottomless pit at the time of the sixth king?

Satan isn't even going to be able to have influence and control while he is in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The sixth king was ruling at the time of John, 1st century. At that time the beast was already in the bottomless pit.

And the term "was, and is not" would not apply to an angel, even if he were imprisoned in the bottomless pit, because "was, and is not" implies someone who was alive by presently is not. The beast in the bottomless pit is someone who died and their spirit is in the bottomless pit.


Doug L.

Thought someone might find this interesting. It's a post that I found on another forum that talks about Gog. I have absolutely no idea what any of this means, and it's too complex for me to want to figure it out, but just posting it in case anyone is interested.


In the old testiment,there was 14 tribes in total .12 plus the two twin sons of joseph being epram(british) and manasseh(america).

Both epram (brits) and daniel (irish and scots) have been left out of the book of life...see revelations 7.

It is the UK government (epram being the conservatives) and the UK labour party being(daniel and adopted judah controlling it)that fermented and executed the financial crash.Eprams fate is clearly written in Jeremiah,Isaiah,and Ezekiel books of the bible...

Their partner in all this....The US democratic party(mainly daniel and adopted judah)but with a leader (President)with a UK passport.

Last year the FT100 was hit that badly and the currency sterling was under that much pressure your treasury bailed the brits out.

Is it suprising that the Lord decided to help the republicans.


Revelations 7



5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.


6 Of the tribe of Asher were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Naph'tali were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manas'seh were sealed twelve thousand.


7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Is'sachar were sealed twelve thousand.


8 Of the tribe of Zeb'ulun were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The Brits saw their fate....and decided to do something about it.First they changed the King James bible around.
666...FORGET IT.If 666 meant evil why was it only mentioned once in the bible....IT WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY 1066...The year the Normans conquered the Anglo Saxons.

Why do you think all the brits have holiday homes in Normandy.The true English are levites (anglo saxons)..just like their American and Australian cousins.

Gog is the CITY OF LONDON...the money markets.
Magog...is the conservative and labour party.
The three allies are..Canada,New Zealand and India.

"How can Abaddon (as the beast) be connected to influence and control of the seven human kings, when he was in the bottomless pit at the time of the sixth king?"

>He was in the abyss during the rule of the ancient Roman Empire .... the Roman kingdom was not one of this particular beast

>The scope of the prophetic visions breaks at the end of his 5th Middle Eastern kingdom, Syrio/ Babylonia ..... the northern kingdom of Grecia

>This beast of satan's is specific to the Middle East [satan has others that he uses for different parts of the earth] and he is still in the abyss at this time .... satan will be allowed to release him at the beginning of the 70th week decreed for Israel

>This beast is called the "destroyer" and angelic king of the abyss angels, and he is satan's pick for ruling over the human kingdoms of the Middle East .... not the USA, Europe, South America, China, etc. .... satan has a widespread structure of rule which includes other fallen angelic beings

>Abaddon-Apollyon is apparently a very powerful fallen angel who is subordinated to satan himself [he rebelled with satan against God long long ago and was involved in the corrupting of the pre-deluvian earth [Jude 1:6]] and particularly evil by the descriptions given in scripture .... this one can even destroy other angelic beings [Daniel 8:10] .... one of the highest order of the angelic realm

>John is told to record the things that "are" [in his day] ..... and still are today .... and then the things "hereafter" ...... at the time of the end

>He spirit was taken into the future and to heaven to be shown the things "hereafter"

>He is shown the "time of the end" on the earth, and it is the beast's 6th "smaller" [little horn] kingdom that is in view ..... he is out of the abyss and has possessed the little horn, a human king of the northern Middle East recorded in Daniel's visions

>Abaddon-Apollyon will then proceed to expand his 6th kingdom into his 7th and final divided kingdom [including 10 other Middle Eastern kings].... he will do this by conquering and by confederation .... and he will also invade, conquer, and then rule over Israel for a period of 42 months [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [he is the other prince in the vision]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

Truth Files said:

"How can Abaddon (as the beast) be connected to influence and control of the seven human kings, when he was in the bottomless pit at the time of the sixth king?"

>He was in the abyss during the rule of the ancient Roman Empire .... the Roman kingdom was not one of this particular beast

>The scope of the prophetic visions breaks at the end of his 5th Middle Eastern kingdom, Syrio/ Babylonia ..... the northern kingdom of Grecia

.......................

>He is shown the "time of the end" on the earth, and it is the beast's 6th "smaller" [little horn] kingdom that is in view ..... he is out of the abyss and has possessed the little horn, a human king of the northern Middle East recorded in Daniel's visions

>Abaddon-Apollyon will then proceed to expand his 6th kingdom into his 7th and final divided kingdom [including 10 other Middle Eastern kings].... he will do this by conquering and by confederation .... and he will also invade, conquer, and then rule over Israel for a period of 42 months [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [he is the other prince in the vision]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

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The sixth king ruling "is" in Revelation 17:10 is not sometime in the future, since five kings were fallen at the time, one is, and the other (seventh) is yet to come (future). That is the past (five kings), present at the time of John (one king), future (one king).

Even in your interpretation, the beast does not become the eighth until he ascends out of the bottomless pit. You have the beast "proceed to expanding his 6th kingdom" - when he is still in the bottomless pit. And if the beast is Abaddon ,who is not released until the cast down angel free him in Revelation 9, we would have seen the stinging locusts come out of the pit torturing men with their stings - and the angel cast down (Satan), as a result of a war in heaven - which none of those things have happened yet.

Doug L.

Revelation is a series of visions that repeat over again giving more details of the same settings as the narrative moves forward, so the structure is not in strict chronological sequence

The 7 seals of the scroll give portents of the coming judgments and are not the actual judgment events themselves .... the removal of the seals will occur just before, and this action of removal by the Lord is not a part of the tribulation events that will come upon the earth

The first 6 trumpet soundings of Revelation will take place in rapid fire sequence setting the back drop of the 70th week [the tribulation period]

So all events contained will set up at the very beginning of the period including satan's release of Abaddon-Apolloyon

Notice the fall of the "great city" just after the sealing of the 144000 Israelites .... and it is the beast in the little horn and the 10 other kings who do this [Revelation 14:8]

The 144000 will be sealed just before the judgments begin on the earth [7:1-8] and the first target "great city" will be the destruction of this world center of business, commerce, and wealth [Revelation 8:8-12].... so Abaddon-Apollyon will be out of the abyss

It is this fallen angelic who will influence and instigate the destruction of the "great city" and the Lord will move him, the little horn, and the 10 other kings to do it [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

Abaddon-Apollyon was the influence controlling the human kings of his past 5 fallen Middle Eastern kingdoms, but he was not permitted to incarnate and manifest his presence openly in any of them

This is going to change during the coming tribulation period and he will be able to manifest in the little horn on the earth [2Thessalonians 2:12] .... this incarnation will happen at the middle of the 70th week just after the little horn has conquered his opposition including the "great city", contenders in the Middle East, and from other nations [Revelation 17:16-18; Daniel 7:8; 11:39-44]

The human little horn will fill both the 6th and 7th human king positions of Abaddon-Apollyon's 2 remaining kingdoms in the Middle East .... first the smaller, and then the larger expanded with the 10 other kings

When the little horn's conquering is completed including his invasion and occupation of Israel at the middle of the week, Abaddon-Apollyon will incarnate him and become the 8th king himself .... the combination of a fallen angelic and a human

He will then rule in this capacity for the remaining 42 months [second 1260 days] of the 70th week [Revelation 13:1-5; 11:2; 11:7]

Then the 7th trumpet will begin to sound and in the next 30 days the Lord will destroy him and his kingdom of followers [Revelation 10:7; 11:15; 15:5-7; 16:1-16]

It is this fallen angelic prince who will stand up against the Lord at Armageddon [Daniel 8:25] which will occur in the next 30 days [second 1260 + 30 [Daniel 12:11] .... the Lord will draw him to his ending and he will go to his own destruction [perdition] in the Lord's lake of fire [Daniel 11:46; Revelation 16:1-16; 17:11; 17:14; 19:11-21]

1whirlwind said:

Russia


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I think this based upon the work of Chuck Missler (and he based it upon the work of someone else I cannot remember). Somewhere, there are references to the great wall of China being called "the ramparts of Gog" because of who it was meant to keep out... the ancient Scythians. These people populated the southern steps of modern Russia and some of the breakaway republics of the former Soviet Union.

That said, I am also convinced that there IS a demonic pressence that rules over this land (as there are demonic pressences that rule over many areas). In many sections of prophecy it is difficult to dicern where the description of the human ruler of a kingdom ends and the demonic ruler begins. Prime examples: Isaiah 13-14 deals with a prophecy against ancient Babylon, but much of the prophecy is yet to be fullfilled, and Isaiah 14:4-22 seem to be speaking of Satan. Also, Ezekiel 28 apparently is speaking of the King of Tyre, yet in verses 12-19 it again is apparently directed towards Satan. And of course there is also Daniel 10, "the Prince of the Kingdom of Persia" is obviously speaking of a demonic being.

hope this helps