Janie's Got A Gun

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 12, 2011

I was wondering what you think of the gun control / gun ownership in the US?

With the recent Arizona shootings, and the ongoing drug wars in Mexico, it seems contemporary, yet... it's not really being highlighted by the US media, or the man on the street. I've heard a few commentators suggest that this is because gun ownership is "really part of the fabric" (Al Hunt, executive Washington editor of Bloomberg News), regarding the US psyche.

Gun ownership is very much a nationalistic issue, so I was curious as to what an Antipodean perspective might be?

Nafe · Jan 13, 2011

My personal opinion is that I support wide spread gun ownership. Madmen like the az murderer is always going to be able to access weapons f need be. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns.

Argy Lacedom · Jan 13, 2011

Australia has strict gun laws and we embrace them wholeheartedly. Most people think the American love affair with guns is crazy. Over here there are roughly 50 firearm related homocides a year. The figure in the US is 15,000.

Where would you prefer to bring up your kids ?

Tahoenite · Jan 13, 2011

The sad part is that they are blaming guns not the people using them.

Admittedly the US has a very prominent gun culture that is consistent with the way it was settled. Older and some younger people I have talked to have told me about how they always had guns around growing up but were very well educated with a fear and respect for what a gun could do.

Part of the US's problems is that they have blamed guns for a long time and have tried to keep them away from the mainstream so much that the average person's education of guns is limited to what they see in movies and video games.

Argy Lacedom · Jan 13, 2011

The sad part is that they are blaming guns not the people using them.

The fact of the matter is that, while guns do not kill people, mad people with guns kill people. Keeping guns out of the hands of mad people is the issue. And by mad, I include any person who might get mad at another person for some reason.

they always had guns around growing up but were very well educated with a fear and respect for what a gun could do.

The numbers prove that education doesn't help when you are in a rage.

Part of the US's problems is that they have blamed guns for a long time and have tried to keep them away from the mainstream so much that the average person's education of guns is limited to what they see in movies and video games.

Twaddle. Mad people with guns have always killed people.

Tahoenite · Jan 13, 2011

Argy Lacedom said:
The fact of the matter is that, while guns do not kill people, mad people with guns kill people. Keeping guns out of the hands of mad people is the issue. And by mad, I include any person who might get mad at another person for some reason.

The numbers prove that education doesn't help when you are in a rage.

Twaddle. Mad people with guns have always killed people.

You are right mad people will kill each other, if they do not have a gun they will find something else.

What numbers for education are you referring to? I have seen criminal activity continually rise while there is a push to pull gun rights and general knowledge from the main stream.

Mad people in general will kill people they do not need guns. Its' part of human nature.

Argy Lacedom · Jan 13, 2011

Mad people in general will kill people they do not need guns.

Sure, agreed. But if a gun's not handy lots of mad people calm down before they do too much harm, or are forced to use a less damaging weapon.

But as a weapon of choice, guns make it so much more convenient, don't you think?

tgg · Jan 13, 2011

Agreed with you, Arcy. And yet, in some other nations their gun laws are just as liberal as in America and the incident of shootings is far less than theirs.

For a long time I have maintained America to be a largely socially and emotionally immature country despite its successes. It is not ready to be able to use guns for what they are really meant.

In the end: a gun is a tool. It can be as good and as bad as the person using it.

Hog Red · Jan 13, 2011

the nutjob was intent on killing, nothing you can do to stop it. he could have killed more people with a car or primitive bomb. eliminating guns from lawful citizens does nothing but disarm the helpless.

Argy Lacedom · Jan 13, 2011

Hog Red said:
the nutjob was intent on killing, nothing you can do to stop it. he could have killed more people with a car or primitive bomb. eliminating guns from lawful citizens does nothing but disarm the helpless.

The statistics prove you wrong.

Hog Red · Jan 13, 2011

Argy Lacedom said:
The statistics prove you wrong.

stats mean nothing, you can make them say anything you want. Austria has a homicide rate almost 50% less than yours and anyone can own up to 2 handguns and there is no limit on how many rifles and shotguns one can own. I could go on but there would be no point. sorry, i just noticed this was an Aussie forum so i will take my leave. Gooday!

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 13, 2011

I was wondering if the back-and-forth would go along he lines that it actually has...

As a fan of Eddie Izzard, I like his take on the matter.

"The National Rifle Association says, 'Guns don't kill people, people do.' But I think the gun helps. I think it helps; just standing there saying 'Bang!' That's not going to kill too many people..."

Tahoenite · Jan 13, 2011

tgg said:
Agreed with you, Arcy. And yet, in some other nations their gun laws are just as liberal as in America and the incident of shootings is far less than theirs.

For a long time I have maintained America to be a largely socially and emotionally immature country despite its successes. It is not ready to be able to use guns for what they are really meant.

In the end: a gun is a tool. It can be as good and as bad as the person using it.

I think you are very right on this point, for a lot of Americans.

Shepherd's Lamb · Jan 14, 2011

I believe gun ownership, control, and laws law thereto/gun politics (should) transcend polarised left-right dichotomies and politics.

In any case, I do so love the "guns don't kill people; people do" lines of argument. Rather than viewing guns as wholly blameless and people as the perpetrating principals, maybe it would be more apt to characterise guns as being accessories to actions.

The primary reason as to American's gun politics debate is it is protected by the Constitution, as a historical/foundation legacy and carried-on rights, and its modern-day impacts. The impacts -- shootings -- are likely to be due to the culture of chaos, fear, and violence and perhaps poor mental healthcare, not the gun laws themselves. Various other countries have lax gun laws but seldom do these countries have killing sprees like the ones in Arizona, Michigan, Texas, California, and most every other U.S. state.

The reason could also be media coverage. Only recently did I learn of mass murders and shooting sprees in nations in Europe (other than the Germanic language ones (e.g., Germany, Austria, Scandinavia ones)) and Asia.

Rao · Jan 14, 2011

Nafe said:
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns.

Tahoenite said:
Mad people in general will kill people they do not need guns. Its' part of human nature.

If you outlaw guns, people who plan to kill someone become outlaws already when trying to obtain a gun, which means that there is a much higher chance of noticing and stopping them before they kill someone.

Professional criminals would find a way to get guns anyway? Yes, but they have to waste time and pay guns much more, which make them certainly less efficient in committing crimes.

Also, A LOT of crimes are committed by people just out of anger. They had a bad day, get angry at the neighbor, find their gun handy and kill him. This happens all the time, and when you have a gun at home you can find it and shoot before you have time to think, cool down, and realize you're just about to ruin two lives, yours and your neighbor's (and the respective families).

If they don't have a gun but just a kitchen knife, this would happen so much less. Because it's easier to defend from a knife than a gun, or because the chance of survival from a knife hit is much higher than that from a shot, and generally because the harder it is to kill, the more conscious effort it takes to do it... It is so easy and quick to pull the trigger even if you "didn't really mean it", just because you were angry for a minute.

Shepherd's Lamb · Jan 14, 2011

The status quo in Australia gun control is that it is tightly regulated and legal acquisition is not easy or quick. The state in gun crime, however, is that the guns are often illegally-acquired, via the black market. Further outlawing or increased gun control would not be efficacious; economics would dictate that prices would increase but laws and price would not stop the most determined of criminals (already criminals or would-then-be criminals) from purchasing guns. It would also not a unreasonable that crime might rise so as to account for the aforementioned increases in price.

The argument of "oh, no, the defenceless people" or "but it's my constitutionally-protected, God-given right" is specious; home invasions, homicides and their rates, stats, and guns are but buzzwords.

On the other hand, the argument of "oh, no, the crime and homicide rates" is not the polar opposite or antithetical argument. While death and violence are saddening, these are arguments that throw people off from the core of the issue. This has little to do with motive or means or the individual impact of the gun; it's a cultural/societal issue and it must be addressed likewise and in turn.

Gun control in the U.S. is likely to be the same old song as narcotics/drug control or Prohibition/alcohol control. In neither instance did the drugs of choice disappear. On the contrary, rather; the respective black markets thrived.

For a country that has been rather stringent on guns, I am pro-gun control but for something like the U.S., immediately rolling out gun control would be counter-productive, especially in the long term.

lozzie · Jan 14, 2011

I personally do not understand the need for owning a gun if its not needed for a specific purpose... (self defense not being one of them).

Even cops are moving more towards using tasers these days if they can...

I can understand shooting as a sport, at a shooting range... like you would archery... but i like gun laws... i would not like to know that anyone could have a gun... i would feel less safe... not more with them

luchsgud · Jan 14, 2011

I have done 2 years of national service. I have seen death, destruction, and large amounts of sorrow. I have spent time with people now maimed and disabled. I am not pro-gun-ownership.

Guns were created to kill and maim and you cannot deny that. They have become a useful tool in some rural pest control, but it is not what they were created for.

There are so many other fulfilling and enjoyable activities in my life I couldn't be bothered, nor desire to waste time at a rifle range.

I had to carry a gun 32 years ago and ever since I put it down I have never picked another one up.

Guns are come to steal health and ability, kill, and destroy peace and happiness. I can see where that fits in my Bible.

Of course prople kill with other things. The first murderer used a rock. But it wasn't created for that purpose - guns were.

TheDag · Jan 24, 2011

Rao said:
If they don't have a gun but just a kitchen knife, this would happen so much less. Because it's easier to defend from a knife than a gun, or because the chance of survival from a knife hit is much higher than that from a shot, and generally because the harder it is to kill, the more conscious effort it takes to do it... It is so easy and quick to pull the trigger even if you "didn't really mean it", just because you were angry for a minute.

it is also easier to run away from a knife while a gun can be fired into your back while running.

Also interesting is that in shops where they have the counter barricaded in robbers are more likely to use guns as they know they won't be able to get to the person while in shops without the barricade they are more relaxed and tend to use a knife or syringe in my experience.

MoreCoffee · Jan 25, 2011

Hog Red said:
the nutjob was intent on killing, nothing you can do to stop it. he could have killed more people with a car or primitive bomb. eliminating guns from lawful citizens does nothing but disarm the helpless.

That kind of reasoning isn't a whole lot different from allowing terrorists to have any weapons they want "because no matter what you do they will still be intent on killing" ... so let them buy Nuclear Weapons and see what happens. ... free market in weapons ... it all seems rather crazy to me.

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