Questions I would like to ask Catholics

Etsi said:

But how do you know that that really happens?

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How do you know the consecration really happens?

The Church tells us, we have faith. Sometimes we see the effects. We fall down and worship the Eucharist and receive It as God so we'd better be right

Edial said:

I must ask as well. This is a fascinating topic.

Is there anyone who could bypass the Purgatory and go straight to Christ?

Thanks,
Ed

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Certainly. That is Christ's intention for all of us. My priest has referred to it a couple times. He said that if a person accepts his own death with a pure heart, knowing that it is a punishment for sin, that is an act of perfect contrition and thus a person would go to Heaven straightway. The purpose of Purgatory is to conform ourselves perfectly to Christ, this can certainly happen while on Earth. Doubtless, many saints have done so and numerous unnamed individuals, but still most people go to Purgatory, at least for a short while.

My priest said we should aim for Heaven and if we fail, we might then go to Purgatory -- it's a lot better plan than aiming for Purgatory and ending up in Hell.

PilgrimToChrist said:

Certainly. That is Christ's intention for all of us. My priest has referred to it a couple times. He said that if a person accepts his own death with a pure heart, knowing that it is a punishment for sin, that is an act of perfect contrition and thus a person would go to Heaven straightway. The purpose of Purgatory is to conform ourselves perfectly to Christ, this can certainly happen while on Earth. Doubtless, many saints have done so and numerous unnamed individuals, but still most people go to Purgatory, at least for a short while.

My priest said we should aim for Heaven and if we fail, we might then go to Purgatory -- it's a lot better plan than aiming for Purgatory and ending up in Hell.

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Now you're talking my language.
Otherwise it appeared to me that everyone here is planning a Purgatory as a default.

Of course our own death is a result and punishment for sin. If one does not accept that ... you better start packing for Purgatory, buddy.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

Edial said:

OK. I probably know the answer to this. One needs to be made a Saint by the church.

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Everyone in Heaven is a saint. Some people are recognized by the Church as being in Heaven and being good examples for people to follow.

Apoc 7:9-10 said:

After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: and they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.

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Does Purgatory hurt?

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Much greater than anything you can imagine, like hell.

But unlike hell, it's a happy experience -- continually moving closer and closer to God, never able to sin again. The longer we are in Purgatory, the more the pain of sense (physical punishments due to sin) decreases and the more acute the pain of loss (the sorrowful feeling of separation from God) becomes as we are conformed to Christ.

PilgrimToChrist said:

...

Much greater than anything you can imagine, like hell.

But unlike hell, it's a happy experience -- continually moving closer and closer to God, never able to sin again. The longer we are in Purgatory, the more the pain of sense (physical punishments due to sin) decreases and the more acute the pain of loss (the sorrowful feeling of separation from God) becomes as we are conformed to Christ.

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How do we know this is like that?

Edial said:

Does lack of stain of sin on one's soul indicate spiritual purity?

Can "stain of sin" be defined better for sake of understanding?

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That which remains after a sin has been forgiven, also called the "debt of temporal punishment" -- that is why we do penance. Penance left undone by the time we die is done in Purgatory.

Do Catholics fear Purgatory?

Why "yes" or why "no"?

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Yes and no. Yes, because we should try to avoid it. Our penances done here on earth are much more meritorious than those done in Purgatory because on earth they are done by free choice. When we choose to fast or to pray or weep for our sins, it is more meritorious because it is a choice than that which is done in Purgatory.

But no, as in we don't fear it like we fear hell. We thank God that He is merciful enough to provide a way of purgation, otherwise many more souls would be lost.

Basil the Great said:

As a non-denominational Christian, I am uncertain as to the doctrine of Purgatory, but I do believe in some form of intermediate state. It makes much sense to me that not everyone goes to Heaven or Hell immediately. It is most unfortunate that Protestantism dropped the ancient practice of praying for the dead. Do prayers for the dead help? I do not know if they help, but they sure can't hurt, so why not?

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Lutherans and Anglicans still pray for the dead.

PilgrimToChrist said:

That which remains after a sin has been forgiven, also called the "debt of temporal punishment" -- that is why we do penance. Penance left undone by the time we die is done in Purgatory.

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How much penance is one to do and what type of a penance? You mentioned below fast, and pray and weep for one's sins.
Is it like 1 year of each? Once a week? Who decides on how long one should do something in order to avoid doing that involuntarily in Purgatory?

PilgrimToChrist said:

Yes and no. Yes, because we should try to avoid it. Our penances done here on earth are much more meritorious than those done in Purgatory because on earth they are done by free choice. When we choose to fast or to pray or weep for our sins, it is more meritorious because it is a choice than that which is done in Purgatory.

But no, as in we don't fear it like we fear hell. We thank God that He is merciful enough to provide a way of purgation, otherwise many more souls would be lost.

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Are there instances when God says He does not need penance and will use grace instead? He could do that, couldn't He? Like ... OK, you are forgiven. See you in Paradise.
That thief on the Cross certainly had more sin than most of people.
Did he bypass Purgatory?

Thanks,
Ed

Vendetta said:

I just thought of a question, so the solution is probably obvious, but I thought I'd ask anyway. If Mary was absolved of all original sin during the Immaculate Conception, before Christ's sacrifice, why couldn't Christ's redemption also be used in the same manner to allow those justified in Abraham's Bosom to enter Heaven? In other words, why did the virtuous souls in Abraham's Bosom have to wait?

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They were justified because they had faith in God, so far as He had revealed Himself to them and because they had faith in the coming Messiah, but Heaven was still not yet opened until Christ's Ascension (or Resurrection or Crucifixion, I'm not sure about those who died during that 40-43 day period, perhaps someone has Church Fathers or other authorities on the subject). Heaven was closed.

Edial said:

Now you're talking my language.
Otherwise it appeared to me that everyone here is planning a Purgatory as a default.

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Well, for me, I've already kind of accepted that if I am able to skirt Hell, I will probably be in Purgatory until the end of the world. So anything less than that would be a great happiness.

Of course our own death is a result and punishment for sin. If one does not accept that ... you better start packing for Purgatory, buddy.

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Ah, but when death comes, most people fight it. They start worrying about their worldly attachments and not wanting to leave their spouses and fearing death in general. That is why we must aways remember that we will die and stand before the Judge and have to render an account of every single action we have taken or have failed to take.

PilgrimToChrist said:

Well, for me, I've already kind of accepted that if I am able to skirt Hell, I will probably be in Purgatory until the end of the world. So anything less than that would be a great happiness.

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Do you know that you made me sad with this post?
Such an attitude is absolutely not necessary.

God loves you. Christ died for you. Do you REALLY believe He will reject you?

MT 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

You believe in Purgatory, fine this is what you believe in.
No problem.

But Purgatory till the end of the world?

Did you sin more than David did?

Does the verse above sound anything like what you are saying?

That's not what you are being taught in church.

You made me sad. So there.

Good night.
Ed

Edial said:

How much penance is one to do and what type of a penance? You mentioned below fast, and pray and weep for one's sins.
Is it like 1 year of each? Once a week? Who decides on how long one should do something in order to avoid doing that involuntarily in Purgatory?

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God.

But also after we go to Confession, the priest gives us a certain penance to do, which we are supposed to use to conform our hearts to Christ.

Is it not the same in the Lutheran church? I know they have Confession (though we don't recognize it, they still have the form of Confession), my dad was raised Lutheran (LCMS).

Are there instances when God says He does not need penance and will use grace instead?

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Penance and grace work together -- there can be no penance without grace.

Of course, we are probably working with different definitions of "grace". I believe that Lutherans use "grace" to mean "mercy". Luther uses the phrase: "Gottes Huld und Gunst, die er zu uns trägt bei sich selbst" (quoted in Lehre und Wehre), where he seems to equate "Huld" (grace) with "Gunst" (favor) -- "God's grace and favor, by which He carries us to Himself." I don't know if there is a better Lutheran definition of grace but this is my understand.

Catholics use the term "grace" to refer to something much more comprehensive -- the life of God in the soul, grace is God Himself acting on a soul. A soul cannot even turn to God without God granting it the ability to turn to Him (very similar to Wesleyan "prevenient grace" and opposed to semi-Pelagianism, such as held by the Eastern Orthodox). Thus we need God's Grace to be able to have contrition and to do penance.

He could do that, couldn't He? Like ... OK, you are forgiven. See you in Paradise.
That thief on the Cross certainly had more sin than most of people.
Did he bypass Purgatory?

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The thief on the cross was not baptized (the Feeneyites* and perhaps some others may object), therefore what he had was the "baptism of repentance" or "baptism of desire" but the same is really true as if he was baptized by water on his deathbed. Baptism remits the stain of Original Sin and both the eternal and temporal punishments due to all the sins you have ever committed -- you are truly made a "new man". Indeed, in the early Church it even became popular to hold off on Baptism until the deathbed -- for example, Constantine converted but wasn't Baptized until they thought he was dying (he recovered). Of course, that's a risky proposition but the idea was to bypass Purgatory this way. Thus all the thief's sins were wiped away by this invisible form of Baptism and he went straight to Heaven (following Christ's Ascension; "this day" he was in Paradise because he went to Hades, 'Limbo', with Jesus).

A second explanation I could give you would be to emphasize what I said about the path to Heaven being a full and perfect conformity to the image of Christ. That is certainly possible to do in an instant, even though for most people it takes a lifetime (and beyond -- hence, Purgatory).

Dismas, even though he is a sinner, fears God and knows that the horrific execution he is undergoing -- his death -- is a just punishment for the crimes he has committed. He shows evidence here of a great, probably perfect, contrition. Thus even if he had been a follower of Christ at some point and was Baptized**, he could have blotted out all his sins in their entirety by an act of perfect contrition on the cross.

Lk 23:39-43 said:

And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

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~~~
* Feeneyites -- followers of Fr. Leonard Feeney, who rejected the efficacy of baptism of desire and baptism of blood and promoted the strictest possible interpretation of the dogma "Outside the Church, no salvation" (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus). He was excommunicated for a period for disobedience (essentially, failure to appear in court) but was reconciled without having to recant his position. Their website explains.

** it is not clear when Christ instituted Baptism -- either at His own Baptism, when He proclaimed the necessity of Baptism to Nicodemus or at the Great Commission. The Apostles baptized following Christ's midnight talk with Nicodemus, it is highly unlikely that it is merely John's baptism of repentance they were doing:

Jn 3:22 said:

After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized. ... When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, (though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,)

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Edial said:

Do you know that you made me sad with this post?
Such an attitude is absolutely not necessary.

God loves you. Christ died for you. Do you REALLY believe He will reject you?

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I have not despaired of God's mercy or else I would not be bothering to post and would be out running around getting drunk and hooking up like I used to.

Nevertheless, I do know myself and I do know how possible it is for me to end up in that dark place again.

God loves everyone and Christ died for everyone (not only the elect). Nevertheless, most people will still not be saved, not out of any defect on God's part, but on our part.

You believe in Purgatory, fine this is what you believe in.
No problem.

But Purgatory till the end of the world?

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Some people are. Furthermore, time in Purgatory is not like time here. Here time passes quickly but I'm sure you've had the experience of being in an uncomfortable position or following an injury or even waiting in icy rain for a bus -- time seems to pass so slowly. People who have spoken to souls in Purgatory have relayed complaints that it seems that they have spent many years, even centuries there, when it has been only a few days since they have died.

But if you realize how many times over we deserve eternal damnation, you can see how the opportunity for purification in Purgatory is a great blessing, not a curse for those souls in Purgatory are happy to be there and being purified, growing closer to Jesus, instead of being in hell screaming blasphemies for all eternity.

There is no injustice here, only mercy.

Did you sin more than David did?

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Lucia asked Our Lady of Fatima whether her friend who had died was in Heaven. She said that she will be but will be in Purgatory until the end of the world.

Now, I don't know her friend's sins but it seems to be that I probably have more sins and less contrition than she did.

Does the verse above sound anything like what you are saying?

That's not what you are being taught in church.

You made me sad. So there.

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I'm sorry I made you sad.

Rest in Christ is spiritual. It doesn't mean we won't suffer, both for things that we have done and for things that other people have done. He says His yoke is easy and His burden is light but He also says that we must take up our cross daily and that we will suffer the hatred and persecution of all men.

Even the Blessed Mother, who never committed a single sin in her entire life, is Our Lady of Sorrows and no one has ever suffered more -- she suffered perfect conformity to Christ's Passion throughout her life. How much more then do I deserve to suffer for my own sins?

Conformity to Christ necessitates conformity to Christ's Passion, for the sinless as for the sinful. Life is suffering. We must make that suffering efficacious to avail for the salvation of our own soul and the souls of others. Purification is like surgery without anesthesia -- it's painful but necessary to survive. And when we reach Heaven, the sufferings we endured on earth and in Purgatory will be long forgotten, mere trifles in contrast to the joy of seeing God face to face.

Jn 16:20-22 said:

Amen, amen I say to you, that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall rejoice; and you shall be made sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. So also you now indeed have sorrow; but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice; and your joy no man shall take from you.

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Edial said:

I understand it much better. Makes sense.

This however, does not make sense to me.
You quote "every last penny" must be paid quoting ...

MT 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

OK. This text certainly could refer to afterlife as well, since a similar scenario we see in Mt.5:25-26.

Doesn't that text however, encourage people NOT to go to prison and settle matters before one gets there?

Purgatory however, from what I see here, seems a certain sure-thing for each and every Catholic with some extremely rare exceptions.

According to that text it appears that Purgatory is the one that should be an exception and not the other way around.

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One might consider it a goal to avoid purgatory. A motivation if you will. Only God is the judge if one is in need of it. As far as we know, with God being outside of time, God may purify us in purgatory in an instant. Nevertheless, impurity cannot enter heaven. I think that is a given even for those who do not accept this teaching.

Do you separate Hades from the Burning Lake or is hell hell in the Catholic theology?

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Off the top of my head I'd say they are the same place. Another word used in scripture to describe hell is Gehenna.

Why weren't they in Purgatory instead?
Or did they enter Purgatory prior to going to Abraham's Bosom?
Or was there Purgatory before Christ?

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I don't know or think it really matters that much. St. Paul talks about there being different heavens that we're not really sure about either. I would assume here that those in Abraham's Bosom were not in need of purification and even if they were, having already been in the after life as they were, would have been purified immediately by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and were only there to await Christ opening the gates of heaven. They could see those trapped in Hell apparently across a great divide that they could not reach into and had sympathy for those suffering there that had chosen to be separated from God but there was no way to help them. I believe that place on the outskirts is believed to be no longer a state in the after life but thats just my assumption. I'd have to dig into it but it really is beside the points about purgatory.

Pain that we do by exercise is to better ourselves. The pain in Purgatory appears to be inflicted on us due to natural "causes".
But I do see what you are saying.

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Some of it can be due to no fault of our own. For example, that we suffer concupiscence at all is due to the sins of our forefathers. God knows everyones strengths and limits. We all have different gifts. Recall the parable about the stewards who were given a talon to invest, this is like the kingdom. God will know if we have invested his gifts to us for his glory or not. There are several analogies made in scripture about the kingdom. We are also to become as little children. This means innocence. We are told that faith and hope and knowledge can fade away and what will remain is love. I believe that by cooperation with grace it is possible to regain the innocence of a child for even the hardest hearted sinner. Nothing is impossible with God.

Imagine that you had come to this realization and were already sincerely pursuing Gods will to the best of your ability but had not gotten there yet and for some reason happen to die in that state. Obviously you will choose to be with God in the next life. We believe God wills all to be saved as he says so and that he condemns no one; that we must chose to be separated from and to reject God of our own free will to go to hell. That Mortal sin causes us to hate God so that choosing to be separate from God is the only choice we can make in that state. That God is always open to accepting us should we so accept him. So, what can we do after we die in a state of grace? Our time on Earth to amend our selves is over. We cannot continue to work on our hearts and souls to rid them of the hardness sin has caused. We may still carry some effect of sin on our soul. Though it may not be mortal that causes our disposition to be one that rejects union with God, it is nevertheless imperfection is it not? How else can that imperfection, that residual proclivity to sin, that venial sinfulness, be removed so that we can enter heaven where no imperfection is permitted?

Do you know of a way? In Gods Mercy, it is his action to purify us. Just as are the temporal effects that draw us toward God and are in themselves purifying as though through fire, Purgatory is Gods loving Mercy so that we may get the rest of the way into perfect union with him. This proves God saves even when we fail.

There is no question that all of our works will go through fire and we will be with our works ...

1CO 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

It appears we will be running through flames of our burning works (which were not based on our faith in Christ, but on some other reasoning).

It is the environment of Purgatory which I see as something as static, something like someone is tied up and tortured by demons (according to Matthew texts that were alluded to), something that must have constant intercession, something that is ... putting it bluntly - just too long and confining.

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That demons are allowed to torment anyone in purgatory would be a spurious teaching. Many a mystic describe purgatory as a lessor state of heaven itself. No demon would be permitted to harass the already saved and souls in purgatory are assured salvation. As I have already mentioned, there is no other direction to go from purgatory than into heaven. What you are describing sounds more like the theory of toll houses which is complete different and not a irreversible dogma of the Church at all as the teaching of Purgatory is. When we die there is either heaven or hell, that is it.

Christian face the judgment seat. Your works pass through fire. You are someplace like really close to your works. It is next to you. Some of the stuff start burning, (like building a hospital wing so you could brag to your buddies), some of the stuff stays as is (like helping someone in the name of Christ).
If you had some major issues in life - there will be a bonfire of your works and you will run like a rabbit through it :o .
This scenario makes a lot of sense and it is pure Bible.

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That passing through fire can happen right here too. Have you ever been faced with a foreclosure or some other tragedy in life that seems to be no ones fault but just an unfortunate circumstance? All your work is being tested. Many trials/crosses/losses the Lord allows us to bear in the here and now can seem as a purgatory on earth and a fire that once we go through only makes us better. The greatest saints went though the greatest trials. This can be said to be the work of the Holy Spirit in ones life even though not all of it was peaches and cream for them, but it was what one needed to get them to heaven. That is true love.

But I do understand what you are saying.

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So when are you starting RCIA to come into the fullness of the faith?

Edial said:

I must ask as well. This is a fascinating topic.

Is there anyone who could bypass the Purgatory and go straight to Christ?

Thanks,
Ed

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we did answer that...

Oh well, yes, they are who we call the Saints.

Like Mother Teresa for example.

The Church will/is examining her life and will canonise her because of her Holiness, she had faith hope and love to an heroic extent.

These holy people are not declared Saints becuase of their works or the good things they did, but their holiness, the theological virtues.

The works is what aids us along is growing holiness, ie, God's love with in our own soul... we go straight to heaven becuase we are holy... it is not becuase we did works and we are rewarded.

This is what is confusing for folks who mistakenly think we are working for salvation... no, we have already been "saved" by the blood of Christ, we are being saved by not giving that up through willful sin, looking to Christ when we do fall, and we WILL be saved when we die becuase we did not give up but persevered in faith, hope, and love... but we are growing in holiness through the practice of the virtues.

Those who do so to an heroic extent- they are Saints.

Meaning, they took this world, denied themselves the self love and self interest and grew in the love of God where they was ONLY the love of God in them and nothing else. No junk, no selfishness, only God's love.

Basil the Great said:

As a non-denominational Christian, I am uncertain as to the doctrine of Purgatory, but I do believe in some form of intermediate state. It makes much sense to me that not everyone goes to Heaven or Hell immediately. It is most unfortunate that Protestantism dropped the ancient practice of praying for the dead. Do prayers for the dead help? I do not know if they help, but they sure can't hurt, so why not?

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"Twinkle of an eye..." so says the bible. EVERY Christian who is relatively mainstream believes in some kind of purification before heaven, after death.

The only Church who defines it to this degree is the Catholic Church.

But still, for as much as we do define it- still so much of it is a mystery.

all we do know is this; Penance done in Faith repairs the damage cause by sin, or rather heals the wounds of sin.

and "Love covers a multitude of sin..."

PERFECT Contrition, and acts of mercy done purely out of the pure perfect love of God inside of you will remit sin and all it's effects. Or, heals the wounds of sin.

I can feel my blood rushing... this thread is exciting. I must put a stop to my religious fanatacism.

Zundrah said:

I can feel my blood rushing... this thread is exciting. I must put a stop to my religious fanatacism.

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AniGequoti said:

Wow! This thread sure has taking off! I was concerned that my thread would turn into another Catholic bashing thread. I'm thankful that it hasn't and thankful to see it's been respectful and civil dialogue. That is what I hoped for. Is it OK for me to ask another question or should I wait? I don't want it to get lost among the other dialogue that's going on here. I just wanted to say that I appreciate everyone being respectful and generous here.

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Go ahead and ask.