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Exactly...so to say Word of Faith is Pentecostal is in error, IMHO.
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How Damaging is the Pentacostal / Charismatic Movement?
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JimfromOhio
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Never said Word of Faith is Pentecostal. I was saying that there are many Word of Faith followers in the Pentecostal churches. Many of the Word of Faith preachers were Pentecostal preachers.
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Yeah, if you look at their credentials, pretty much all of them were ordained by the Assemblies of God.
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Son of Israel
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Good questions.
The unique miracles performed by the 12 apostles sure kickstarted the spread of Christianity. As intended. As Jesus captured the attention of the faithful, and enemies as well, so also His very unique individuals we know as "apostles" healed in relation to their spreading of the gospel to a world in darkness. There were only 12 chosen by Jesus that I know of, not counting Judas who betrayed Him.
Miracles were always performed in the ministry of evangelism of the early church from what I see in scripture.
The gift of healing wasn't used for personal reasons, like healing friends just because they were sick. For example,
(1Ti 5:23) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
This would be an entirely pointless recommendation by Paul if apostles were abundant and within calling distance, AND if it was acceptable to heal christians just because of their "often infirmities".
Or how about when Paul's dear brother Epaphroditus was sick near death?
(Php 2:26) For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
(Php 2:27) For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Why wouldn't Paul have healed Epaphroditus? Paul was an apostle evangelizing and healing at will. Yet he didn't think to heal Epaphroditus, and if he did, he sure didn't admit to being tempted to.
Yet today, we "hear" that pentes claim to regularly perform miracles of healing upon each other. Not only that, but pray for jobs and marriages and finances etc etc as though God is some kind of a personal needs lottery maching that if you crank the handle enough, the chance something comes out of it for ones self gets better and better. Something is very wrong there it sure seems to me. Why not instead pray for the things that He promises to answer?
Why didn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? Could it be that it was because Epaphroditus was a Christian?
Isn't a Christians concern to be saved from their sins and all else means nothing anymore? That is what it means to me. To be perfected in Spirit, to be at peace and joy in the Holy Spirit regardless of what happens in this world, that is my rest in the Lord.
"Healed" The REAL meaning of being "saved"...
Consider this hypothetical Christian here...
(Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Here we see that our prayer for a sick brother's sins to be forgiven is a real thing. It is a prayer for him to be "saved". So that he can be "raised up".
What does that mean?
If his sins are forgiven and his body dies he is "raised up" in eternal life.
Even if he survives and is raised up from his sickness back into this world, it is still all about his sins being forgiven, not his illness being healed.
But the question here totally begs to be asked, especially to the pente/charis peeps around, why go through all the rigamoral of anointing and praying for their forgiveness, if their claimed ability to heal is present??
Why not just heal them?
I don't think it is God's concern that we be a fountain of youth to each other on this planet.
And the hit/miss comment about it "being God's will" if some person didn't get healed but died, AFTER the attempted healing... Where do we ever see such a thing as that amongst Christ or His Saints, to NOT be able to heal someone? "It wasn't God's will" they say!
Does anyone know of even ONE case where Jesus or His apostles attempted to heal someone but couldn't because it "wasn't God's will"?
(Paul praying for his thorn in the flesh doesn't qualify for he was praying for himself, of which we all are to know not to, that God's grace is sufficient for ALL of us.)
A couple years ago I saw a study on the statistics of spontaneous healing in Pentecostle churchs compared to the general populace and that there was no difference. Has anyone else seen that study?
Yea, I'm of the mind as another pointed out earlier, that the "healings and signs and wonders" were to pass away after their purpose was fulfilled. Which was to establish Christianity.
The Gospel took root, and now we all enjoy that TRUE healing, the salvation of our souls in Christ Jesus our Lord, who arises within us with Healing in His Wings
What other healing do we want!? lol! Why aren't we desiring for that final disease to take us out of this world? I'm ready
Shalom
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LOL
The letter paul wrote to the Church in Rome
The letter Paul wrote to the Galatians...
Our bible is getting mighty slim!
Indeed it's getting mightly slim for you to prove that the unbiblical practices that you support are valid.
I've noticed when scripture is explained to you there is no response or rebuttal. Typical of most on your side of the debate.
So when I had a **groan** about your lack of understanding on the 'tongue' verses and you said:
I naturally thought that you wanted the argument and the teaching! The explanation.
I gave you it in post #523. I show how the verses mean foreign languages, not babbleonian. In fact its the standard interpretation of those verses right up until the 19th century.
So are you gonna give me your comments/rebuttal on the exposition I did at your request, or are you going to say you dont HAVE a rebuttal, OR are you gonna continue to be dishonest and pretend like you never wanted me to explain the verses?
So why did you bring psalms up in response to me saying that frolicking around is not Biblical?? You really are just winging this arn't you Sun?
So why did you bring up Acts mockers verse in response to me saying that 'drunk in the spirit' wasn't Biblical?? Were you not trying to show that it was Biblical. Really Sunlover...this is getting a bit silly. Whenever you are shown to be in error you just do an emergency eject.
Uhm....MILLIONS who are wrapped up IN those counterfeit, false signs and wonders. And they all deny that they are, even though we all know that they exist.
You obviously have no interest in discerning bad fruit from the good. That is an anti-scriptural position. It's 'milky'.
So you know they are out there, even in your church...but your totally uninterested in taking a close look at their practices, for the benefit of YOURSELF and others reading this thread?
Your confusing rebuke and correction with evil-speak.
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sunlover1
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Except when they weren't of course.
(Some were told to keep it to themselves iirc)
Except when they were.
Perhaps you're mistaken. Could be possible.
I can think offhand of Lazerus. Thats one!
IIRC, He did it as a personal favor for Mary and Martha.
That and we are all considered "Personal friends of God"
I wear glasses to read but last December when I had a walnut sized lump
I went to the church and a lady laid hands on me and i was healed.
And also, I do take a little wine for my stomach and for my nerves
This passage doesn't really give us any sort of information
on when, how or what exactly went on... It says he was sick
and God had mercy.
- "He was ill"
- He almost died
- God had mercy on Him.
- And God had mercy on me
Amen. I ONLY pray for the things He promises.
Who'd want anything else?!
It doesn't say or imply that paul didn't heal him.
We really don't know how He came about his healing
My real concern is to do my Father's will.
We do have an enemy who would like us to
think that our health and well being is of
no importance.. but it is to God and it is
to our loved ones.
No it's not the real meaning.
Healed is often used throughout the NT
by Jesus Himself when "healing" people.
It's quite clear what it means.
The passage is speaking of any who are physically ill being made well.
It's written to Christians who are already "saved".
Because we need to desire HIS will.What other healing do we want!? lol! Why aren't we desiring for that final disease to take us out of this world? I'm ready
Jesus went around healing all who were "oppressed of the devil".
If someone is "oppressed" of the devil.. who's going to help them?!
WE, His body, HIS arms and hands to lay on their heads.
HIS love to wrap around them and comfort them.
As He is, SO are WE, in this world.
Let your will be done on earth
AS IT IS IN HEAVEN
Hmmm. His will ISNT done on earth??
Is there sickness in Heaven?
Just thinking out loud.
Thank you for the scriptural conversation
refreshing around here .
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sunlover1
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LOL
have you ever seen me NOT answer a scriptural debate?
I ignored yours (AS kindly and politely as I could btw) because
I completely disagree with everything that you believe for the
most part.
Rather than fight with you (cos this seems to be some life
or death discussion to you) I chose to bow out kindly.
Next time you will perhaps understand that.
I realize you don't know me that well. but seriously, if you
were maybe to pray and consider some stuff rather than
assuming...
Not true.
I guess I didn't quit beating my wife either.
You leave me no answer so .. there ya go.
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Still waiting for your corrections. I'm totally open to being in error, but can you show me how? Ditto on post #523 which you called rubbish and garbage......but never rebutted. In fact, none of the tongue wagglers have touched it other than to dismiss it in one sentence.
It's a Christians job to correct error. So do so if you see it.
Dunno. It's not clear if the mockers are taking a dig at the listeners for their presumed folly at all being able to understand the Apostles in all their languages and being 'confounded, amazed and marvelled', or whether they are mocking the Apostles as a way to, as Barnes puts it, "escape the absurdity of acknowledging their own ignorance, they adopted the theory that strong drink can teach languages" (although this could ALSO apply to the listeners).
Either way, they're not mocking the Apostles for talking gibberish.
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Yes..please, keep going. Are there modern day Apostles yes or no?
The damaging info (their original thoughts) is by the people who think these practices are damaging. You can give 'em a name if you want. It doesnt change the fact that the info is undeniable. It's telling that you steer clear of the data. In fact you steer clear of any rebuttals, scripture or views that oppose your own.
New thread idea for Drew:
How Damaging is being non-denom?
The point is, Big man, we are talking about Pente/Charis damage on this thread. This is about the 5th time you've excused unbiblical behaviour by saying 'every denom has it'.
Stay on target.
21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
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Right, and were calling the work of demonic spirits, demonic. But you continue to sit on the fence then. Thats called being 'lukewarm'. But Jesus will have a spot of indigestion with you.
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
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There are two groups of 'christians'. Those who are godly and orderly and who worship in spirit and in truth. And there are those who who practice demonic rituals of the flesh.
Many people in the second group will try to distance themself from the extreme MAJORITY with the endless denom. game, however by practicing the same rituals even if it is in private or to a lesser degree...they remain in that group.
Until they renounce these kundalini rituals altogether. They will remain.
Heres a wonderful testimony from a memebr on another thread that shows it can be done:
And then, I just noticed, she made her own thread:
IT CAN BE DONE. COME OUT OF HER!!
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If they both practice the unbiblical ritual of speaking gibberish in the name of Jesus then they are both equally in danger. I dont see a difference.
Sunlover1 said:
LOLZ!
So, now Christians can go against God's will?
Are you saying Christians need to have faith in a certain 'gift' in order for them to use it? It's up to them not God? It's up to the persons wants or needs that dictates God's purpose?
This just shows how introspective and fleshy and me me me your theology is.
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Greeting Brother Son.
I concur. They are for a 'sign'. For those who didn't have the full canon of scripture to convince them. Now that canon is closed. The gifts arn't needed anymore. And we don't see miracles happen by the hand of individuals anymore which is a giveaway too. We only see very poor attempts at deceit by charlatans and frauds.
Agreed. The purpose of Biblical healings were NOT for the physical body of the healed person. It's sounds contradictory, but the deeper meaning was as a sign. To convict those present and the healed to follow the healers teachings. Miraculous Healing is for the ultimate benefit of the SOUL.
And herein is the BIG LIE of charismania: its objective is always the present; its aim is to serve the corruptible body and not the eternal soul.
God is not a genie to grant our every wish.
We cannot wield God’s will to our will.
God will not grant every petition.
God will only grant those petitions conformed to His will.
God grants a petition in his own time.
We cannot use God’s Word to bend or to alter reality.
Thats what it means to me too Son. God bless you Sir. We continue to ask forgiveness of our sins in all humilty and humbleness. Personally, I dont pray for physical health at all. Just for spiritual forgiveness. Funnily enough I've never been seriously ill. Do I expect God to keep me that way? Not AT ALL. If its in His plan that I get sick and die....Thats up to Him!
God heals miraculously. I believe that. But in his time and by His will ALONE if it's according to His plan.
We ask to be led not into SPIRITUAL temptation and to be delivered from SPIRITUAL evil. Of course we expect physical persecution and even execution at the hands of those with darkness in their hearts. But thats our bodies...pffftt.
Amen.
Nice take on the verses. It makes sense. Thank you.
But the question here totally begs to be asked, especially to the pente/charis peeps around, why go through all the rigamoral of anointing and praying for their forgiveness, if their claimed ability to heal is present??
Why not just heal them?
I don't think it is God's concern that we be a fountain of youth to each other on this planet.
And the hit/miss comment about it "being God's will" if some person didn't get healed but died, AFTER the attempted healing... Where do we ever see such a thing as that amongst Christ or His Saints, to NOT be able to heal someone? "It wasn't God's will" they say!
Does anyone know of even ONE case where Jesus or His apostles attempted to heal someone but couldn't because it "wasn't God's will"?
(Paul praying for his thorn in the flesh doesn't qualify for he was praying for himself, of which we all are to know not to, that God's grace is sufficient for ALL of us.)
A couple years ago I saw a study on the statistics of spontaneous healing in Pentecostle churchs compared to the general populace and that there was no difference. Has anyone else seen that study?
Yea, I'm of the mind as another pointed out earlier, that the "healings and signs and wonders" were to pass away after their purpose was fulfilled. Which was to establish Christianity.
The Gospel took root, and now we all enjoy that TRUE healing, the salvation of our souls in Christ Jesus our Lord, who arises within us with Healing in His Wings
What other healing do we want!? lol! Why aren't we desiring for that final disease to take us out of this world? I'm ready
Shalom
All good points and agreed.
God's Speed Son.
<< Healed souls. Corruptable worthless bodies.
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The verses you quote do nothing to prove what your buddy posted.
I want to see verses that specifically say, "Unless Jesus physically hand picked someone while He was walking the earth they cannot be considered an apostle." And, unfortunately, if a verse like that is found, Paul becomes a liar, for calling himself an apostle...thus, nothing he ever wrote can be considered inspired by the Holy Spirit...and that leaves the only epistles worthy of building doctrine from as Peter's and John's...
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There are twelve true Apostles of the Lamb/. Thats fact. It's written in scripture. It doesnt make Paul a liar. He's part of the twelve.
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Wow, and you're really expecting me to take anything you say seriously after you post something like this?
You know that Matthias took Judas' place right?
Act 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Act 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Act 1:26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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Why does that effect anything? We still end up with 12 Apostles of the Lamb.
We don't hear much of Matthias in the rest of the NT do we?
Maybe the Apostles made a mistake appointing him? It's certainly not unheard of for some of the Apostles to be in error on occasion is it?
Maybe it was a temporary charge? As a witness? To make up the numbers until Paul is officially ordained by Christ Himself?
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Big Drew said:
Big Drew: The guy just makes up stuff as he goes along. I'm really strapped for time right now, but when I have more time, then I'll document his "tangled web" of lies from his own writings.
Dr.Strangelove said:Originally Posted by Ih8s8n
but since Doc is CLEAR on the fact that THE MIRACLE was KNOWN LANGUAGES, his mixing up the accusation of drunkeness between the speakers and the hearers...Dunno. It's not clear if the mockers are taking a dig at the listeners for their presumed folly at all being able to understand the Apostles in all their languages and being 'confounded, amazed and marvelled', or whether they are mocking the Apostles as a way to, as Barnes puts it, "escape the absurdity of acknowledging their own ignorance, they adopted the theory that strong drink can teach languages" (although this could ALSO apply to the listeners).
Either way, they're not mocking the Apostles for talking gibberish.
Dr.Strangelove: You attributed that quote to me, but I never said it. Please correct your error. Thanks.
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That's totally weak, bro...admit you don't know what you're talking about...we never hear anything about Andrew or Bartholomew either...does that mean they were replaced by James, the Lord's brother, and Apollos? Or maybe Barnabas...oh, but it could have been Junia...wow...just wow...
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