How Damaging is the Pentacostal / Charismatic Movement?

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Actually there are more than 12 Apostles...you must have forgotten about Paul...oh, and then there was Matthias, you know...the one that took Judas' place after he dx'd himself...and let's not forget Junia...and what about James, the brother of the Lord? He wasn't one of the twelve...then there's Apollos...and...must I keep going?

cute. who counts Judas?:thumbsup:

chosen by Jesus Himself, okay? "The Twelve" (ditch Judas, add Paul, Matthias chosen by lot)


nevertheless
let's do it your way. how many are there Drew? please do continue.

...keep going all the way from the Book of Acts to today and lay some names on us: are you an Apostle Drew?

all names please.
 
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child of Jesus

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Interestingly enough this "damaging info" you have is written by cessationists...so it's not surprising...I've read it all before, and typically skim over you copy and paste junk...if I wanted to read someone else's thoughts I would go to the websites...I'm a big fan of originality.

As far as looking at individuals and finding their faults...that's just as easily done with prominent folks in your camp, so what's your point?

no dear, not at all.

lots of folks within the pentes and charis have pointed the finger at the honchos' antics and kooky doctrines...

big fan of originality? you go by the numbers Big Drew...

finding their faults? we're not talking about regular old sin and gossip Drew: we're talking about FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE TEACHERS, ROBBERS AND THIEVES.

Drew, what did THE APOSTLES say to do about false prophets and teachers?
 
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Big Drew

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cute. who counts Judas?:thumbsup:

chosen by Jesus Himself, okay? "The Twelve" (ditch Judas, add Paul, Matthias chosen by lot)


nevertheless
let's do it your way. how many are there Drew? please do continue.

...keep going all the way from the Book of Acts to today and lay some names on us: are you an Apostle Drew?

all names please.
Where is this criteria found in scripture that one can only be an apostle if Christ chose them?

And does this mean that Jesus doesn't choose any ministers today? Better be careful with that one. ;)
 
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Big Drew

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no dear, not at all.

lots of folks within the pentes and charis have pointed the finger at the honchos' antics and kooky doctrines...

big fan of originality? you go by the numbers Big Drew...

finding their faults? we're not talking about regular old sin and gossip Drew: we're talking about FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE TEACHERS, ROBBERS AND THIEVES.

Drew, what did THE APOSTLES say to do about false prophets and teachers?
You realize what's happening here right...you're screaming false teacher, while those in the Charismatic camp are screaming false teacher about cessationists...I know you're really wanting to pick a fight and to say that I follow false teaching...and, if that's what you want to believe, no skin off my back...but I'm not gonna get caught up in your little game.
 
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Big Drew

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which is it Drew?
could you tell the names of today's Apostles, please? i want to see what they say and do, k?
Show me the post where I even brought up modern apostles.

Nice dodge on my question, btw.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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what "one event" did you see as being the focus?

well each item had just one even listed and then it was like it doesn't matter if they did anything good, they're agents of satan . sounds like demonic logic to me .

not sure why bio etc information would need to take a Biblical format?

how would that have made the information more beneficial?

Stating what good they have done in addition to what needed improvement, those who it is addressed to might actually listen .

do you mean the people who compiled the Dictionary, the people who quoted from it, or the people written about (leaders)?
i can't see my post anymore . i forget .

surely we can not say, for example, the Prophets, The Apostles or The Lord Himself didn't "criticize"?
yes, but their assessment was balanced . i can see a quite a number of people on that list that would have some good things to be said about them also .
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. (Jeremiah 23:9)

The sign of spiritual drunkenness is a sign of lying prophets .. so it isn't something to brag about actually ..
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If we are born twice, and this is by the Spirit .. i'm not sure if being "slain in the spirit" is actually a compliment ..

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. (Jude 1:12)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Michael...i wondered how long this would take to come up, and we might as well deal with it now: please study this carefully. it's unpleasant, but we have to decide: are we Biblically permitted to test the works of men who claim to be doing the works of God?

BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT (the unpardonable sin) is a very specific sin, and is identified below by both Jesus Himself, and the blasphemers themselves.

............................

BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT:

Matthew 12:15-32

But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

......................................





The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":
  1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
  2. He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
  3. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
Who Was Jesus?

...................

~ child

the threat of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit (the unpardonable sin)levelled at those who would test the activities of MEN for Biblical soundness regarding their practises can not be supported by the Biblical definition spoken by Christ, in context, in Matthew.

the Pharisees stood face to face with Jesus Christ, The I AM and accused Him of performing HIS miracles by the power of Be'elzebub.

He said things said against He Himself (the Word made flesh) could be forgiven, but the sin the Pharisees committed was a specific accusation that is made to this day - that the Power Jesus manifested to perform the MIRACLES HE PERFORMED in Person was from a Mystery Religion deity Be'elzebub.

Matthew is a "jewish" Gospel, presenting Jesus as the King of Israel - His language to them is entirely in context, the sin is specific.

understanding the intense conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees (their Traditions) and what their own religion actually was reveals this sin.

........................

if we who doubt these manifestations we see MEN performing in God's Name are wrong, we need to join THE WAVE.

if we are not wrong, the entire movement is not of God, and the charlatans (most have already confessed there are many) are more likely coming closer to this sin.

that's how serious this is.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is calling the work of God's Spirit the work of Demonic Spirits . I have no intention of joining a bandwagon, as the scripture does instruct me to .. "not conform to the pattern of this world" even when the children of God seem to conform to it .
 
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JimfromOhio

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I noticed many Pentecostals when it comes to speaking in tongues, especially those who are in Word of Faith (health and wealth) have the attitude that breeds spiritual elitism, a superior attitude and does damage to some individuals, while building up the egos of others, but does little to edify the whole church. Charismatics are not like that. We are to allow the Holy Spirit do what He will through us and see what He does with us. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, Paul wrote: "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." The spiritual gifts are to be submitted as the Lord determines in an unifying way. God will use our spiritual gifts by His Spirit as He wills. Not based on our faith and actions.
 
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Big Drew

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I noticed many Pentecostals when it comes to speaking in tongues, especially those who are in Word of Faith (health and wealth) have the attitude that breeds spiritual elitism, a superior attitude and does damage to some individuals, while building up the egos of others, but does little to edify the whole church. Charismatics are not like that. We are to allow the Holy Spirit do what He will through us and see what He does with us. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, Paul wrote: "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." The spiritual gifts are to be submitted as the Lord determines in an unifying way. God will use our spiritual gifts by His Spirit as He wills. Not based on our faith and actions.
Jim, how are you defining Pentecostal? Because Word of Faith is separate from Pentecostal.
 
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JimfromOhio

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I think the idea of imminent revival is damaging . it takes time to mature the whole faith . sometimes it takes generations .


I agree. I don't mind revival but how they do the revivals are damaging. I always had issues with "altar calls" for many years because I am very concerned about the fact that I believe it promotes easy-believism that leads to false salvation. Especially when it comes to healing. Matthew 7 is one of the most sobering verses in the Bible where Jesus said “The Lord will say to many, ‘I never knew you.’”

in 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul shunned manipulative form of altar calls or fashion. Paul wrote in verse 4, "My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom". This method tends to produce a superficial conviction of sin, if any at all. People often respond because they have the impression that by doing so they will receive certain benefits. That's what Paul was trying to say.

A.W. Tozer was one of the few 20th century Evangelical Pentecostal leaders who spoke out against the danger of this system when someone heard one of his messages and at closing, Tozer said ‘Don’t come down here to the altar and cry about it; you go home and live it.’

Since the Reformation, we have had many "Awakenings" which is another word for "revival". Luther was the famous who revived (restored). Revive means to "to restore". Through Divine Providence, we have democracy in order to share spiritual revival that only the Holy Spirit can provide.
 
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sunlover1

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Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. (Jeremiah 23:9)

The sign of spiritual drunkenness is a sign of lying prophets .. so it isn't something to brag about actually ..
Look again at the two thoughts there separated by ;
Although i agree that 'drunk in the spirit' is not biblical (IMO)
I do believe you misread the passage.

If we are born twice, and this is by the Spirit .. i'm not sure if being "slain in the spirit" is actually a compliment ..

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. (Jude 1:12)
And I don't know that this passage has anything to do with slain in the spirit.
Which.. imo.. is an horrible thing to desire.

I noticed many Pentecostals when it comes to speaking in tongues, especially those who are in Word of Faith (health and wealth) have the attitude that breeds spiritual elitism, a superior attitude and does damage to some individuals, while building up the egos of others, but does little to edify the whole church. Charismatics are not like that.
Any church, any denomination, any group.
Some are puffed up and some are humble.
Has to do with fruit of the Spirit, or lack thereof.

We are to allow the Holy Spirit do what He will through us and see what He does with us. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, Paul wrote: "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." The spiritual gifts are to be submitted as the Lord determines in an unifying way. God will use our spiritual gifts by His Spirit as He wills. Not based on our faith and actions.
Not true.
It's based on our faith and our actions very much.
God gives the ability to manifest but he doesnt
force them and He doesn't just manifest without
our cooperation as co laborers.
 
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JimfromOhio

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Jim, how are you defining Pentecostal? Because Word of Faith is separate from Pentecostal.

Word of Faith is a spin off from Pentecostal denomination. Word of Faith is a teaching movement kindred to many Pentecostal churches and individuals around the world. Many of the beliefs are the same except I called Word of Faith "Hyper Pentecostals". They are more extreme.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Look again at the two thoughts there separated by ;
Although i agree that 'drunk in the spirit' is not biblical (IMO)
I do believe you misread the passage.

so did the person who interpreted it that way . i'm just showing the passage that resembles what they're saying . but this is drunkenness because of the law, not because of the Spirit .

And I don't know that this passage has anything to do with slain in the spirit.
Which.. imo.. is an horrible thing to desire.

well being twice dead, mirrors being twice born . so i correlated it . when i look at things .. i try to give the benefit of the doubt and find it in scripture, it doesn't always pan out in their favour . but sometimes it does .
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Word of Faith is a spin off from Pentecostal denomination. Word of Faith is a teaching movement kindred to many Pentecostal churches and individuals around the world. Many of the beliefs are the same except I called Word of Faith "Hyper Pentecostals". They are more extreme.

What about "Apostolic"?
 
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JimfromOhio

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How is word of faith defined again, because some Pentecostals believe some of their tenets and such but not sure if all .

it might be a broad reaching term like Charismatic .

There are alot of debates relating to Charismatic doctrines. Charismatics are VERY diverse with all forms of denominations. Charismatics do not believe in speaking in tongues are mandatory for salvation. There are many doctrines that Pentecostals and Charismatics do not agree.
 
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