The Gospel Call And Effective Calling: What Is The Gospel Message?

sunlover1 · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
okay, that's a very condensed version.

It's that simple though... the rest follows from there

our interpretations and/or applications may be different.

May well be.

i assume then that you don't invite non-christians into your home? do you talk to them in the workplace or at the grocery store? if we extend your reasoning, then it wouldn't be good to associate with the cashier at the grocery store, because s/he is a non-christian. grocery store cashiers are 'not nice' if non-christian, and therefore shouldn't be associated with.

I don't invite "cult leaders" into my home.
I don't even wish them godspeed.
:wave:

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

sunlover1 said:
I don't invite "cult leaders" into my home.
I don't even wish them godspeed.

that's entirely up to you. you're not obligated to invite anyone into your home whom you don't wish to.

however, i feel that it's my responsibility to share the gospel with him, if i have the opportunity. he presents to me his beliefs, and i present to him what i disagree about and why.

i try not to class people into categories of 'saveable' and 'non-saveable'. placing people into such classification status may simply serve to circumvent my responsibility to evangelize. compassion in the expression of the evangelistic commission which Jesus Christ gives is not selective according to one's 'likelihood to go for the sale'.

those involved in different religions are people just like anybody else, and i don't wish to villify them simply because they may have been raised differently. somewhere along the way, someone may have failed to reach them with a more accurate gospel in a context of direct interaction.

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

ebia said:
In some cases you'd be talking in those sorts of words - eg the accession of a new Roman emperor, but remember we are talking about a greek political word, not a religious one, and one coopted by the LXX translators for God's return - but not connected directly to messianic expectation. We must not confuse our categories too early. It's a down-to-earth word about a King bringing (supposedly) peace and prosperity here and now in this world; not "pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die". So yes, its talking about a person who is, in some sense, acting as a saviour. But its about that person, not about the act of saving let alone the people being saved.

okay, i tend to differentiate between an earthly savior and a heavenly savior. for example, an earthly savior (perhaps being more political and/or even atheistic) might attempt to save the world from war, slavery, famine or plague, without any reference to eternal salvation of the soul whatsoever.

The two aren't independent, but a "doctine of repentence" is not part of what an evangelion is. If Jesus is Lord there are lots of things that follow from that, but the things that follow from an event shouldn't be confused with the event itself. Getting our categories right can help untangle some of the mess and get some stuff straight that is completely off track.

how then might we categorize the system of response to the evangelion? what do we call it? the evangelion plus 'what'?

the phrase "gospel message" does not need the word 'message' - you can't have a gospel that's not a message. It's like saying "the doggy animal" instead of simply "the dog".

okay. i had pulled the exact question from wayne grudem's text-book on 'systematic theology'. but the phraseology may be a bit redundant.

Yes, but my point is that an evangelion is not something that invites you to take it on board if you feel like it - its something that tells you that the world has changed whether you like it or not. When the Roman heralds came around announcing that Augustus, son of the divine and saviour of the world, was now Caesar saying "no thanks" was not an option. The gospel itself is a proclamation, not an invitation. "Jesus is Lord" not "Jesus can be your personal Lord and saviour"

in other words, Jesus died, rose again, ascended into the heavens, is coming back again to set up the heavenly kingdom visibly. like it or not. the event can't be resisted when it occurs. more like a news story.

ebia · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
okay, i tend to differentiate between an earthly savior and a heavenly savior. for example, an earthly savior (perhaps being more political and/or even atheistic) might attempt to save the world from war, slavery, famine or plague, without any reference to eternal salvation of the soul whatsoever.

Absolutely - but if we jump straight to the religious jargon meaning without going through the actual down-to-earth meanings of the words like gospel, savior, salvation,... we end up with overspirtualised distortions of their meaning which bear little resemblence to how Jesus, Paul, etc used them. And then we misread the New Testament when we find those words. The Gospel is down-to-earth. Salvation is down-to-earth and here-and-now practical. It's just that its the fullness, the completeness, of which Augustus Caesar's was the parody.

how then might we categorize the system of response to the evangelion? what do we call it? the evangelion plus 'what'?

Why do we need a label? I'm not a fan of systematic theology.

okay. i had pulled the exact question from wayne grudem's text-book on 'systematic theology'. but the phraseology may be a bit redundant.

Fair enough.

in other words, Jesus died, rose again, ascended into the heavens, is coming back again to set up the heavenly kingdom visibly. like it or not. the event can't be resisted when it occurs. more like a news story.

I would like to say a lot more about the 'now' bit to that, but basically yes - it's news. One then chooses how one reacts to that news - celebrate and get involved in what is happening, try to ignore it and pretend it isn't happening, disbelieve the newspaper, struggle against it, whatever...

sunlover1 · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
that's entirely up to you. you're not obligated to invite anyone into your home whom you don't wish to.

however, i feel that it's my responsibility to share the gospel with him, if i have the opportunity. he presents to me his beliefs, and i present to him what i disagree about and why.

i try not to class people into categories of 'saveable' and 'non-saveable'. placing people into such classification status may simply serve to circumvent my responsibility to evangelize. compassion in the expression of the evangelistic commission which Jesus Christ gives is not selective according to one's 'likelihood to go for the sale'.

those involved in different religions are people just like anybody else, and i don't wish to villify them simply because they may have been raised differently. somewhere along the way, someone may have failed to reach them with a more accurate gospel in a context of direct interaction.

I don't wish to villify anyone either.
It's not by my choice that i refuse
their company:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house,
neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

:wave:

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

sunlover1 said:
It's not by my choice that i refuse
their company:

i suggest that you have a choice entirely, in the contexts of both your interpretation and application of the text that you've presented:

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house,
neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

do you apply this to all non-christians alike, or just specific ones? for example, if one of your relatives is a non-christian and attempts to enter your house on a holiday, do you restrict their entrance? or how about your next-door neighbor? or a co-worker from work? are you telling me that non-christians aren't allowed in your house?

sunlover1 · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
i suggest that you have a choice entirely, in the contexts of both your interpretation and application of the text that you've presented:

do you apply this to all non-christians alike, or just specific ones? for example, if one of your relatives is a non-christian and attempts to enter your house on a holiday, do you restrict their entrance? or how about your next-door neighbor? or a co-worker from work? are you telling me that non-christians aren't allowed in your house?

I didn't mean to offend you.
I assumed you didn't know about this teaching
and thought i would share it.

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

ebia said:
Why do we need a label?

i'm just trying to find a proper term to call it without just lumping it in with the gospel, so that people know what i'm referring to.

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

sunlover1 said:
I didn't mean to offend you.

no offense at all. i appreciate that you share your verse with me. it helps me to be mindful of the verse that way. i'm just trying to understand how you're interpreting and/or applying the verse, to see if our interpretations and/or applications may or may not be aligned the same.

perhaps i don't feel an immediate threat from the man entering into my home. he seems to be making an honest attempt to play the role of a father figure to me, since my own father is far worse in his moral standing. i made it clear to this man that i wasn't interested in attending his church, yet he's kind enough to visit and shows concern for me anyway. and if he understands why my beliefs differ from his, that's good too.

I assumed you didn't know about this teaching
and thought i would share it.

again, we may simply have different interpretations and/or applications. there are certainly some people whom i don't let into my home. for example, if someone wants to force a false doctrine on me. but if they can engage in a constructive two-way conversation, then i may entertain them for a time.

also, i wouldn't let people bring alcohol or drugs into my home, whether they proclain to be a christian or not. i currently rent the other bedroom to a boarder, even though he is not a christian, but he respects and obeys my house rules. i'm just attempting to show a bit of grace to others of different belief systems, if they don't outright verbally reject what i beleive in.

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Faith is the gift of God not the result of the persuasion of the evangelist. We must never think of salvation as a kind of transaction between God and us in which He contributes grace and we contribute faith. For we were dead and had to be quickened before we could believe. No, Christ's apostles clearly teach elsewhere that saving faith too is God's gracious gift. Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it.

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

JimfromOhio said:
We must never think of salvation as a kind of transaction between God and us in which He contributes grace and we contribute faith. For we were dead and had to be quickened before we could believe. No, Christ's apostles clearly teach elsewhere that saving faith too is God's gracious gift. Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it.

how does one enter into the new birth then, if not by faith?

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
how does one enter into the new birth then, if not by faith?

It is by faith but only from God. Faith is from God, not from each of us. We can do nothing to earn or receive it. Most important, this raises the whole question of the doctrine of regeneration because this is the most serious thing of all. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it. The ability to believe for salvation, the ability to believe for service, the ability to believe in intercessory prayer are all given measures of faith that come from God.

sunlover1 · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
no offense at all. i appreciate that you share your verse with me. it helps me to be mindful of the verse that way. i'm just trying to understand how you're interpreting and/or applying the verse, to see if our interpretations and/or applications may or may not be aligned the same.

perhaps i don't feel an immediate threat from the man entering into my home. he seems to be making an honest attempt to play the role of a father figure to me, since my own father is far worse in his moral standing. i made it clear to this man that i wasn't interested in attending his church, yet he's kind enough to visit and shows concern for me anyway. and if he understands why my beliefs differ from his, that's good too.

again, we may simply have different interpretations and/or applications. there are certainly some people whom i don't let into my home. for example, if someone wants to force a false doctrine on me. but if they can engage in a constructive two-way conversation, then i may entertain them for a time.

also, i wouldn't let people bring alcohol or drugs into my home, whether they proclain to be a christian or not. i currently rent the other bedroom to a boarder, even though he is not a christian, but he respects and obeys my house rules. i'm just attempting to show a bit of grace to others of different belief systems, if they don't outright verbally reject what i beleive in.

Here's what you had said:

and the unification church teaches that reverend sun myung moon is the sinless messiah. but i don't agree with them. they don't even believe in the bodily resurrection of christ. the man from there visits me weekly. he's a nice man, but i don't agree with him.

Here's the the beginning of the passage. Perhaps it will help you to understand where I am coming from:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.
Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what wea have worked for,
but may win a full reward.
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,
does not have God.

Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching,
do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works..

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

JimfromOhio said:
Most important, this raises the whole question of the doctrine of regeneration because this is the most serious thing of all. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it.

then how/when is regeneration effected?

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

church attender said:
then how/when is regeneration effected?

Through the Holy Spirit's conviction. Salvation is accomplished solely through His will and actionnot only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it. And, as it is His work, it is always a thorough work; and is always a work that will show itself. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

The atonement is the work of God from beginning to end. God alone provides the means of salvation through the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ; through the call of God for all to repent and don't reject; and through the God-given restoration. Looking at Romans 10:17 says in the original Greek, "Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ." Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ, not a subjective analysis about what's going on in yourself or based on your own faith. The difference between "accepting" and "conviction" is the actual conversion. I want to go back to Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (accepting-decision), or by the hearing of faith (conviction) ?" Understanding and accepting faith is one thing and 'actual conversion by the conviction of the Holy Spirit' is another.

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Here's what you had said:

Here's the the beginning of the passage. Perhaps it will help you to understand where I am coming from:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.
Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what wea have worked for,
but may win a full reward.
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,
does not have God.

Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching,
do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works..

Abiding in Christ evidences genuine salvation through the works of the Holy Spirit, not self-work. Who are we abiding to? Jesus Christ, through the Word of God with the help from the Holy Spirit. Through Christ, the Holy Spirit is our security for eternal inheritance. Through Christ, the Spirit of Promise who seals us until the day when our redemption will be "fully realized" (see Eph. 4:30). The Holy Spirit is our key to sealing for our eternal promise. Living in faith in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, true believers receive God's Word. Abiding in Faith means to endure without yielding, to accept without objection, to remain stable or fixed in a state, to continue in a place.

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

sunlover1 said:
For many deceivers have gone out into the world,
those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.
Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

understood. i assume that you're applying this to the friendly cashier at the grocery store as well. is this correct? the friendly cashier at the grocery store who doesn't confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh (hence virtually any, if not all, non-christians) is the deceiver and the antichrist. is this correct?

Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for,

Click to expand...

but may win a full reward.
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,
does not have God.

again, i assume that you're referring to all non-christians here. non-christians don't abide in the teaching of Christ, nor do they have God.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching,

Click to expand...

do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works..

i would reiterate my previous question which you hadn't answered, although it's ultimately up to you if you choose to answer it or not. regarding non-christian relatives, next-door neighbors and co-workers who don't bring the teaching of Christ to your doorstep: do you restrict them entrance into your house and refrain from greeting them? what is your personal practice?

if Jesus Christ ate with tax-collectors, prostitutes and sinners in their houses, did He nonetheless restrict sinners from entering into his house?

you're concerned that my friend with the unification church doesn't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. but isn't this the same case with most every non-Christian?

church attender · Jan 2, 2011

JimfromOhio said:
Through the Holy Spirit's conviction. Salvation is accomplished solely through His will and actionnot only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it. And, as it is His work, it is always a thorough work; and is always a work that will show itself.

i believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit must be directed towards the human conscience of the individual for conversion.

Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ, not a subjective analysis about what's going on in yourself or based on your own faith. The difference between "accepting" and "conviction" is the actual conversion. I want to go back to Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (accepting-decision), or by the hearing of faith (conviction) ?" Understanding and accepting faith is one thing and 'actual conversion by the conviction of the Holy Spirit' is another.

can a person choose to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon their conscience?

sunlover1 · Jan 3, 2011

church attender said:
you're concerned that my friend with the unification church doesn't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. but isn't this the same case with most every non-Christian?

Certainly. Let's ignore that passage.
:wave:

carry on.

church attender · Jan 3, 2011

sunlover1 said:
carry on.

regards. thanks for sharing. :wave:

The Gospel Call And Effective Calling: What Is The Gospel Message?

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