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Agreed completely. Just as with the slave market redemption, etc.
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Penal substitution, etc.
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Agreed completely. Just as with the slave market redemption, etc.
Christos Anesti
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There is a sense in which Christ is a substitute (He died in our place) and being sinless he still paid the price of sin (He died). I don't see the death of Christ as the punishment of the Father at all though.
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I didn't comment on it because it didn't seem to be proposing any different approach from the Rom 6:4 quotation I used. Unfortunately it's not explicit enough about how the atonement worked to create much excitement in this discussion (although in fact it might be argued that it's a mistake to try and go beyond Scripture in this).
In addition, there are signs of a truncated doctrine of the Incarnation (in that the incarnation is expressed entirely in terms of taking a human body) and rejection of the God-given gift of sex (not in the idea of Mary as virgin, but in wording such as "untainted by intercourse with man" -- I object to the implication that intercourse taints procreation).
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- Sep 23, 2005
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Yes, certainly Philip providentially applied this passage to Jesus:
Act 8:28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot."
Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.
Act 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth."
Act 8:34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?"
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
The passage does state that the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
It was the Lord's doing to present Him as a guilt offering.
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The death that Christ died was from God's hand for sin. He is the guilt offering.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Was it not from God that the cup came that Christ drank?
Luk 22:42 saying, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done."
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Whether you express it as penalty or punishment, the thought is the same. Jesus paid for something for us, that we otherwise would pay.
Jesus was the guilt offering. He took on the cup that we deserved. It was out of love that God took on the punishment in His Son rather than us bearing it.
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I suggest reading the whole work. The rules say that I cannot post the entire thing. It's not long. I gave the link.
You're using the wrong definition of intercourse. It's not about sex... never was. It's about purity.
The text speaks of not being tainted with the stain of original sin. Stay focused on Christ and forget about your thoughts of Mary's sex life.
Forgive me...
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It seems to be along the lines of the sin of Adam being transmitted through seed of man and considers Mary to be more of a holding tank or temple.
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I would love to. But every time I turn on ancient faith radio it doesn't take long for them to start singing about the virgin theotokos. And then I turn it off until a later time when they are singing about Jesus.
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LOL! Well she is held as first among the saints.
Always remember however that hers is only part of the story and in almost every place we see her she is 'presenting' Christ.
Christ loved his mother.
Forgive me...
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Done. It's very similar to Calvin. Like Calvin, it uses two major approaches:
(1) penal substitution: God had committed himself to death for mankind as a result of the Fall, and thus had to kill man. The Word took that onto himself by virtue of his solidarity with the human race. (I'm actually surprised at this. The reference books all claim that penal substitution was invented by the Reformers.)
(2) The Rom 6:4 approach: by union with Christ, Christ works in us to renew us
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JimfromOhio
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In the Old Testament Leviticus 9:7 Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded." In the New Testament, Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
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- Sep 23, 2005
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So most everyone if pressed agrees with the substitution part. I take it the penal part is the issue?
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Christos Anesti
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I don't even have a problem with the word "penal" in and of itself just some of the things that are associated with the doctrine of "penal substitution" TM. If a person takes on a lot of suffering you can certainly say "he took a lot of punishment". Christ took a lot of punishment. It had nothing do with the Fathers wrath being upon Him though. He took on our mortal nature and suffered death on our behalf out of love and not to appease the Fathers wrath and justice. How would an inoccent person being killed appease justice anyway? I demand justice so lets kill the innocent Person and let the guilty off the hook?
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