Do we choose God or does God choose us?

sunlover1 · Jan 1, 2011

DonnyT said:
K, Thanks! But what about the ones God doesn't choose?

Sorry lol.
Who doesnt God choose?
I really can't know how that would work.
God alone can tell you that imo.
All I can know is what is written.

God bless you!!
:hug:

DonnyT · Jan 1, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Sorry lol.
Who doesnt God choose?
I really can't know how that would work.
God alone can tell you that imo.
All I can know is what is written.

God bless you!!

The non-believers are those God doesn't choose. And, thank you!

Hammster · Jan 1, 2011

DonnyT said:
For all the people agreeing that God chooses us first; so you're saying for those he doesn't choose, the non-believers, they're all doomed to eternal torment? Can they truly be held accountable if God never chose them in the first place? You might say God is god he can do whatever he wants, but is this fair and just?

Do you mean is it fair and just for God to punish justly those who reject Him and despise Him?

sunlover1 · Jan 1, 2011

DonnyT said:
The non-believers are those God doesn't choose. And, thank you!

How come?
Cos he knows they'll say no thank you?

DonnyT · Jan 2, 2011

Hammster said:
Do you mean is it fair and just for God to punish justly those who reject Him and despise Him?

I'm guessing you're in the "we choose him" group. Which, in the op, presupposes we have a freewill to choose. I would have to question this notion. Is it still our choice if God influences us? ie: revealing himself to some and not to others.

benf · Jan 2, 2011

DonnyT said:
I'm guessing you're in the "we choose him" group. Which, in the op, presupposes we have a freewill to choose. I would have to question this notion. Is it still our choice if God influences us? ie: revealing himself to some and not to others.

Romans talks about the existence of good and evil/right and wrong showing us the existence of God and Evil/Satan/Disobedience etc. (Check 1:19, read chapter 7 carefully).

IMO the "influence" being referred to here isn't just given arbitrarily or to some and not others, etc. It is the existence of good evil and our job to recognize them for what they are.

ivebeenshown · Jan 2, 2011

"Flesh and blood haven't revealed it to you, but God has."

We cannot choose God of our own free will in our corrupted state, but with the initial grace of God, we can then have knowledge and belief of the truth, and use our free will to stay with God and love in deed, stay with God and fail to love in deed, or depart from God.

Hammster · Jan 2, 2011

DonnyT said:
I'm guessing you're in the "we choose him" group. Which, in the op, presupposes we have a freewill to choose. I would have to question this notion. Is it still our choice if God influences us? ie: revealing himself to some and not to others.

God reveals Himself to everyone. Read Romans 1. It isn't whether or not God reveals Himself that is the question. The question is why do some choose to repent and believe and others don't? Is there something good about those who are saved? Are they better, more wise, more spiritual, etc.? Or is it that God, being rich in mercy, chose to save some, gave them a new heart, and with that new heart from God, chose to believe in Him?

DonnyT · Jan 2, 2011

Hammster said:
God reveals Himself to everyone. Read Romans 1. It isn't whether or not God reveals Himself that is the question. The question is why do some choose to repent and believe and others don't? Is there something good about those who are saved? Are they better, more wise, more spiritual, etc.? Or is it that God, being rich in mercy, chose to save some, gave them a new heart, and with that new heart from God, chose to believe in Him?

That's my point. God chose to save some and yet those that God does not choose are doomed to eternal torment, even though the choice was God's choice to begin with.

Hammster · Jan 2, 2011

DonnyT said:
That's my point. God chose to save some and yet those that God does not choose are doomed to eternal torment, even though the choice was God's choice to begin with.

Do they deserve eternal torment?

sungaunga · Jan 2, 2011

Hammster said:
Do they deserve eternal torment?

Yes we do. we deserve nothing but that. For those who are having trouble with this doctrine. God knew before He created this world, many, infact most would end up in Hell. But He still created them. Why do you think He did that?

Hammster · Jan 2, 2011

sungaunga said:
Yes we do. we deserve nothing but that. For those who are having trouble with this doctrine. God knew before He created this world, many, infact most would end up in Hell. But He still created them. Why do you think He did that?

For His glory.

DonnyT · Jan 2, 2011

Hammster said:
Do they deserve eternal torment?

How are they deserving of eternal torment? You could argue; it's because they reject God, but isn't it God who chooses who God reveals himself to? You could say it's because of the sins of Adam. I have to question this because God does not hold the sins of our future generations against us. Why should we be deserving of eternal punishment for Adam's sin? Shouldn't someone be held accountable for themselves? Also didn't God set up mankind's fall in the first place?

Hammster said:
For His glory.

I fail to see the glory in creating a group of people set aside for eternal punishment.

Aibrean · Jan 2, 2011

God chooses us. He does not predestine people to torment. God doesn't desire the wicked to die, otherwise "For God so loved the world" would be false. Man resists the Holy Spirit which causes man to reject grace.

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Hammster · Jan 2, 2011

DonnyT said:
How are they deserving of eternal torment? You could argue; it's because they reject God, but isn't it God who chooses who God reveals himself to?

He reveals Himself to everyone. See Romans 1.

You could say it's because of the sins of Adam. I have to question this because God does not hold the sins of our future generations against us. Why should we be deserving of eternal punishment for Adam's sin? Shouldn't someone be held accountable for themselves? Also didn't God set up mankind's fall in the first place?

if having Adam's sun imputed to you is unfair, then it must also be unfair to have Christ's righteousness imputed to you.

I fail to see the glory in creating a group of people set aside for eternal punishment.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

sungaunga · Jan 2, 2011

anyway, doesn't this belong in the soteriology forum lol

JimfromOhio · Jan 2, 2011

DonnyT said:
That's my point. God chose to save some and yet those that God does not choose are doomed to eternal torment, even though the choice was God's choice to begin with.

Yep. I believe that "before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any."

What's so wonderful about grace, is that our pride on our humanity, the ability to think resulted eternal death from God's unmerited favor. Until that is, Grace came along and the Holy Spirit's work. No sinners seeks God unless God chose them. The Bible affirms that man gets no credit for his own believing, and that man cannot and does not seek God. The Old and New Testaments affirms that no man seeks after God, and that there are none who are righteous (Ps. 14:1-3; 53:1-4; Rom. 3:10-18). In John 6:44, Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" in the same chapter 6 of John, in verse 65, Jesus said "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

DonnyT · Jan 4, 2011

Aibrean said:
God chooses us. He does not predestine people to torment. God doesn't desire the wicked to die, otherwise "For God so loved the world" would be false. Man resists the Holy Spirit which causes man to reject grace.

If God chooses some, he must not choose the rest. And that brings into question verses like John 3:16.

Hammster said:
He reveals Himself to everyone. See Romans 1.
if having Adam's sun imputed to you is unfair, then it must also be unfair to have Christ's righteousness imputed to you.

That's a contradiction because if Adam's sin was never imputed, Christ's righteousness wouldn't need to be imputed.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So God prepares vessels of wrath for destruction so that vessels of mercy will know God's glory? A key point not being said enough in churches. I feel this also brings into question the existence of an eternal punishment. Why would God use these vessels to make God's glory known to us and have them tormented for eternity. It seems more feasible they're simply destroyed or made non-existent.

Aibrean · Jan 4, 2011

Ezekiel 18:23 said:
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Just because he KNOWS who will be saved and who will not does not mean it's his WILL that people aren't saved. Choice assumes will.

Do we choose God or does God choose us?

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