Morally licit condom use in marriage (question)

plmarquette

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....... ????

How long did doctor say to lay off, so to speak?

Intercouse is not the only release given to married couples....

Intimacy ....walks, holding hands, snuggling, etc...until she heals within...

We can give advice...but the rest up to you...Generality...if coming off the pill, first pregnancy often ends in miscarrage...[many young mothers]

after miscarrage a chance of another "damaged area" in Uterus...for a time...
some thing wrong with fetus....accident....etc. [wait, try again, later]

two wrongs do not make a right, but preventing another miscarrage or comforting one another....in marriage, should not be a public issue... [mutual consent, speak to some one you trust]
 
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But there are things that diminish the culpability- things that interfere with and impede our free will.

A person may not want to do it, but may be under extreme duress.

I would not do it- no sex for a few months would not be devastating... what if your spouse goes to war, there won't be sex for a few months but I can't judge another couple.

all I'm saying is, if you really feel you do not have the grace, fortitude and the trust, then at the very least, do not compound the situation by taking Communion and be honest with yourself and God.

It's not the same as saying, screw the Church, I'm doing what I want.

It's more like being put in a position of feeling you have no other choice.

Now I feel the choice would be clear and I know I could get through it- but not all people may be like this.


My wife and I faced this situation, and we did not say screw the church we will do what we want. We said screw the doctors, we will do what we want. We were told not to conceive for 6 months, but we conceived on my wifes next cycle; nine months later we had a son. He is now 14 well developed and well nourished and in the top of his class.
As a doctor myself, I know that the medical profession can be very biased against having children, and I really don't like that facet of it. Did you ever consider not listening to the doctors and taking your chances with God instead?
 
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Meepy

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My wife and I faced this situation, and we did not say screw the church we will do what we want. We said screw the doctors, we will do what we want. We were told not to conceive for 6 months, but we conceived on my wifes next cycle; nine months later we had a son. He is now 14 well developed and well nourished and in the top of his class.
As a doctor myself, I know that the medical profession can be very biased against having children, and I really don't like that facet of it. Did you ever consider not listening to the doctors and taking your chances with God instead?


that could be very dangerous to tell someone to go against the advice of their doctor.
 
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epiclesis

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My wife and I faced this situation, and we did not say screw the church we will do what we want. We said screw the doctors, we will do what we want. We were told not to conceive for 6 months, but we conceived on my wifes next cycle; nine months later we had a son. He is now 14 well developed and well nourished and in the top of his class.
As a doctor myself, I know that the medical profession can be very biased against having children, and I really don't like that facet of it. Did you ever consider not listening to the doctors and taking your chances with God instead?

:wave:
 
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benedictaoo

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My wife and I faced this situation, and we did not say screw the church we will do what we want. We said screw the doctors, we will do what we want. We were told not to conceive for 6 months, but we conceived on my wifes next cycle; nine months later we had a son. He is now 14 well developed and well nourished and in the top of his class.
As a doctor myself, I know that the medical profession can be very biased against having children, and I really don't like that facet of it. Did you ever consider not listening to the doctors and taking your chances with God instead?

Same with me... I was told if I want to live, have your uterus removed (I was bleeding to death at the time), but I didn't, I lived.

And then I was told 2 weeks later if I have anymore kids, I could die. Had 3 more, not dead yet.

I had eyes rolled at me and everything for not tying my tubes.

But this is a funny story, my last doctor, after my last child, I told her clearly, no tubes will be tied as I was being prepped.

During the c section after the baby was delivered, she had another doctor helping and they were stitching the uterus and she yells at me and says, You can't keep doing this! You're a mess in here..." and so I said, "then if the uterus is bad, then just take it out," since my understanding is, if its a pathology and not just in order to be sterile , it can be done... so the other doctor yells at me and says, "This is not the time or the place!" So I said, "okay, you don't have to yell..."

After it was over, my doctor looks at me and says, "I can't figure you out, you don't want your tubes tied, but you want your uterus out..." I laughed becuase I never gave her an explanation why I would not have it done. She then tells me, "just have your husband have a vasectomy". I was like suuuure :thumbsup:. I'll do that. ^_^
 
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Meepy

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Same with me... I was told if I want to live, have your uterus removed (I was bleeding to death at the time), but I didn't, I lived.

And then I was told 2 weeks later if I have anymore kids, I could die. Had 3 more, not dead yet.

I had eyes rolled at me and everything for not tying my tubes.

But this is a funny story, my last doctor, after my last child, I told her clearly, no tubes will be tied as I was being prepped.

During the c section after the baby was delivered, she had another doctor helping and they were stitching the uterus and she yells at me and says, You can't keep doing this! You're a mess in here..." and so I said, "then if the uterus is bad, then just take it out," since my understanding is, if its a pathology and not just in order to be sterile , it can be done... so the other doctor yells at me and says, "This is not the time or the place!" So I said, "okay, you don't have to yell..."

After it was over, my doctor looks at me and says, "I can't figure you out, you don't want your tubes tied, but you want your uterus out..." I laughed becuase I never gave her an explanation why I would not have it done. She then tells me, "just have your husband have a vasectomy". I was like suuuure :thumbsup:. I'll do that. ^_^




wow, doctors and nurses are awfully pushy with sterilization aren't they?
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Even a condom is only 99% so why take that risk?
Not so. I was informed by our local health centre at my state university (a very liberal state-sponsored university), that condoms are actually only a maximal rate of 84% effectiveness at pregnancy prevention. Hence, it could therefore be concluded that, even with if one couple were to utilise condoms in the midst of contrition, the potentiality would still be 16% of the female conceiving and becoming pregnant. Such a rate is significantly higher than the supposed "99%" ratio that is often touted or given.

Generally, condoms (and other forms of contraception) have a less than >50% rate of STD prevention, generally.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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wow, doctors and nurses are awfully pushy with sterilization aren't they?

Many in the medical profession, it would seem, often like to push the pro-choice/pro-Eugenics agenda of pro-Sterilisation and Population control; doing so out of a distorted weltanschauung.
 
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benedictaoo

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wow, doctors and nurses are awfully pushy with sterilization aren't they?

oh yeah. I can't tell you how many have looked down on me, like I'm some kind of crazy Jehovah's Witness for my religious beliefs.

But what's sad is most of the professionals are also Catholic.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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oh yeah. I can't tell you how many have looked down on me, like I'm some kind of crazy Jehovah's Witness for my religious beliefs.

But what's sad is most of the professionals are also Catholic.


Yep.

Reminds me of the thread wher the Bishop removed the Catholic status from St Joes.
 
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Fantine

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I am one of those people who, when feeling sad about a situation, try to think about people in more difficult circumstances. Then I feel fortunate by comparison, and can occupy my mind thinking of RAOK's I could do to help those people.

In your situation, you have been called to be abstinent for two months.

All over the country tonight, there will be thousands of Army spouses whose husbands and wives are in Iraq and Afghanistan in harm's way. Not only are they separated from one another, they know that there is a possibility that their loved ones may be killed or wounded, or come home psychologically scarred with PTSD. They wish that they could hold one another and comfort one another, but all they have are letters, e-mails, and phone calls.

It doesn't make your situation any easier, but maybe you can thank God for the blessings you do have and offer to babysit for someone whose husband is off with the National Guard, or write a cheerful note to a soldier overseas.

May the New Year bring you the sweet little baby you long to bring into the world. God bless you both.
 
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benedictaoo

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They ought know why, and not look as if they don't understand.

One nurse when I went to just take a pregnancy test to confirm pregnancy, made some comment under her breath about my other children being left with out a mother to raise them.

I don't know, do these nurses actully see mothers who had many c sections die left and right? Do they die all the time and we just never hear about it?

The last OB I had did say that she has done up to 8 c sections on a mother and it went okay and she has done 2 and it went bad.

The danger apperley is having the scares open or the uterus erupt during the labor process with the contractions. The doctors all scheduled the c section before my due date but the last one, I did go into labor before hand and nothing bad happened, it went fine. But there is a danger there that you can't ignore.

But I am "done" now, or so I say... I'm 43 and it's now really far, far too dangerous but I don't do ABC at all and so far, so good because NFP has always been ridiculously easy for me to follow.

BUt if you would look at it from this perspective, I'm really getting pass the child baring age and I would be so, so high risk becuase I also have high blood pressure during pregnancy, I really couldn't do it again... So I can understand why a professional would not understand why I just don't make myself sterile.
 
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benedictaoo

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I am one of those people who, when feeling sad about a situation, try to think about people in more difficult circumstances. Then I feel fortunate by comparison, and can occupy my mind thinking of RAOK's I could do to help those people.

In your situation, you have been called to be abstinent for two months.

All over the country tonight, there will be thousands of Army spouses whose husbands and wives are in Iraq and Afghanistan in harm's way. Not only are they separated from one another, they know that there is a possibility that their loved ones may be killed or wounded, or come home psychologically scarred with PTSD. They wish that they could hold one another and comfort one another, but all they have are letters, e-mails, and phone calls.

It doesn't make your situation any easier, but maybe you can thank God for the blessings you do have and offer to babysit for someone whose husband is off with the National Guard, or write a cheerful note to a soldier overseas.

May the New Year bring you the sweet little baby you long to bring into the world. God bless you both.

Well, here's what I don't understand... if you have a baby, you have to abstain for 6 weeks anyway. So add two more weeks on to that.

I personally , me, personally do not buy the, "I can't abstain" reason. If it's for the rest of their life, maybe I can but not for a few months.

BUt I am not going to judge another person. If they say they can't, then I have to take that at face value.

I can better deal with, "my wife will drop dead," reason but not, "I can't abstain for a few months..."
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Not so. I was informed by our local health centre at my state university (a very liberal state-sponsored university), that condoms are actually only a maximal rate of 84% effectiveness at pregnancy prevention. Hence, it could therefore be concluded that, even with if one couple were to utilise condoms in the midst of contrition, the potentiality would still be 16% of the female conceiving and becoming pregnant. Such a rate is significantly higher than the supposed "99%" ratio that is often touted or given.

Generally, condoms (and other forms of contraception) have a less than >50% rate of STD prevention, generally.

To be fair, the "84%" number includes people who attempt to put one on while sloshed. The actual rate of breakage is much less.

But yes, even if it is 99% sure it won't break or spill, it's not worth taking such a grave risk -- even apart from the sin factor.
 
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that could be very dangerous to tell someone to go against the advice of their doctor.

Considering that I am a doctor and know what the advise is based on, as well as the reasoning for it, there is very little real danger. It is extremely arrogant of one person, doctor or not, to tell another what they MUST do.
As a professional, I explain the risks to another person and let them make the choice.

I don't know what it is in Obstetrics and Gynecology these days; the doctors take the infant life as near meaningless, and not even a thought to its welfare. Its like the situation comes up, pregnancy dangerous, must kill baby. No thought on how to best manage the mother's medical problems to get her through the pregnancy, just kill and sterilize. That attitude disgusts me.

The risk of getting pregnant after a miscarriage is another miscarriage, that is all. Waiting two months does not allow any more healing that would have happened the first month. For God's sake the uterus sheds its whole lining every 28 days and grows a new one without any ill effects. The only thing different would be that there is some residual HCG in the mother's blood stream, and that hormone does not present a danger to conception, as it prevents ovulation in the first place. Once the hormonal environment is back to normal the regular cycles start and ovulation and pregnancy can take place. Where oh where is the advantage of waiting two months? Its not really there. The only thing that I can see is that it makes the doctor feel better, like he or she is giving some paternalistic advice
 
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isshinwhat

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Hello all!

I'm a member who posts here from time to time on a different account and I have a tricky moral question that I'm interested in getting the perspective of the Catholic Church on. Due to the sensitive nature of the question and to protect my wife's privacy, I'm using this dummy account.

So, here's the background. My wife and I were married this past summer. On principle, we both agreed not to do anything to prevent children from coming, since we don't agree with that. Plus, we both love children. We weren't actively trying to conceive, but were leaving it totally in God's hands...

My wife and I experienced nearly the exact same thing, with the added stressor of her potentially developing cancer from certain complications. We had weekly doctor's visits to make sure she was healing well, and dealt with problems as they arose.

Our abstinence drew us closer, and though it wasn't easy nor pleasant, it definitely drew us closer together. The doctor wanted us to wait one year after her hormones balanced out before conceiving; we waited 9 months (largely due to a misunderstanding on when the year actually started) and we have had two healthy children since then. When we told our doctor that we would not be using birth control pills or condoms, he said that he had consulted with a priest who told him that in cases like this it would be licit to use a condom or birth control pills. If that statement was true, and knowing the priest he consulted it probably was, he was incorrect and was the only priest to give that advice. I understand the priest's desire to "help" a couple out through "charity" but that is a decision that he does not have the authority to make.

I understand the worries that you have as a new husband who cares deeply for his wife. Trust God, and he will use this as a great opportunity for growth. It is an amazing gift to learn the multiple ways that you can express your love for one another. Intimacy takes many forms.

Please feel free to send me a PM and I can give you my personal email if you want to ask more specific questions, or just talk. My wife has said she would be happy to talk with you and your wife, as well.

God bless, and may St. Gerard and the Blessed Virgin strengthen you through their prayers.
 
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benedictaoo

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Too many priests say it's okay. I talked with one who says this is his area of expertise, moral theology and said taking birth control in circumstances less then this is okay... and I said, I have to disgree with you.

Then a few minutes later, I asked the older priest who was retired but living in the rectory at the parish the same question and he said "NO! and don't let any preist tell you other wise".

He had not known that I asked the younger priest the same thing.

Now I know some folks would say, post Vatican ll and pre Vatican ll and they would be correct... but it's not the "old fashioned priest" who is wrong and out of touch, it's the younger one... who were never properly taught in seminary, the ones who studied in the 70's are the ones who believe this.

The other priest at a different parish that I love so much, he says, he would never tell ppl this becuase it is not the correct Catholic teaching but between me and him, "The Lord understands..."

Which the Lord does understand how difficult a issue this whole thing is for Catholics who have health risks or uncooperative spouses and they are trying to just make this all work and be faithful but at the end of the day if NFP works, then we have to use it and if you are high risk, you have to be extremely careful, don't take risks and when in doubt if one is fertile or not- abstain.

BUt the Lord does understand if you are weak and you give into temptation and use means to prevent pregnancy (non abortive that is) but that is what forgive is for but just don't think you can use ABC and then repent later. It doesn't work that way.
 
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