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Ryan Collins

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First, the Biblcal narrative reveals that God gives people the choice of whether to follow him. You've already glossed over a very important piece of Scripture, but I will re-post it for your consideration and maybe it will get through your brick wall of presuppositions.

Deuteronomy 30:15-19, which can also be cross-references with 11:26-28
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God* that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,


I will repost my Joshua 24:15 because that is OBVIOUS:
Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

Jeremiah 7:1-15
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: Stand in the gate of the Lord’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah, you that enter these gates to worship the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your doings, and let me dwell with you in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’

For if you truly amend your ways and your doings, if you truly act justly one with another, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, then I will dwell with you in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your ancestors for ever and ever.



Here you are, trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are safe!’—only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your sight? You know, I too am watching, says the Lord. Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel. And now, because you have done all these things, says the Lord, and when I spoke to you persistently, you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, (OH REALLY?!?!?!?) therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your ancestors, just what I did to Shiloh. And I will cast you out of my sight, just as I cast out all your kinsfolk, all the offspring of Ephraim.

Jeremiah 17:9-27

The heart is devious above all else;
it is perverse—
who can understand it?
I the Lord test the mind
and search the heart,
to give to all according to their ways,
according to the fruit of their doings.


Like the partridge hatching what it did not lay,
so are all who amass wealth unjustly;
in mid-life it will leave them,
and at their end they will prove to be fools.


O glorious throne, exalted from the beginning,
shrine of our sanctuary!
O hope of Israel! O Lord!
All who forsake you shall be put to shame;
those who turn away from you* shall be recorded in the underworld,*
for they have forsaken the fountain of living water, the Lord.



Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed;
save me, and I shall be saved;
for you are my praise.
See how they say to me,
‘Where is the word of the Lord?
Let it come!’


But I have not run away from being a shepherd* in your service,
nor have I desired the fatal day.
You know what came from my lips;
it was before your face.
Do not become a terror to me;
you are my refuge on the day of disaster;
Let my persecutors be shamed,
but do not let me be shamed;
let them be dismayed,
but do not let me be dismayed;
bring on them the day of disaster;
destroy them with double destruction!




19 Thus said the Lord to me: Go and stand in the People’s Gate, by which the kings of Judah enter and by which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem, and say to them: Hear the word of the Lord, you kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, who enter by these gates. Thus says the Lord: For the sake of your lives, take care that you do not bear a burden on the sabbath day or bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem. And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the sabbath or do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors. Yet they did not listen or incline their ear; they stiffened their necks and would not hear or receive instruction.



24 But if you listen to me, says the Lord, and bring in no burden by the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but keep the sabbath day holy and do no work on it, then there shall enter by the gates of this city kings* who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their officials, the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and this city shall be inhabited for ever. And people shall come from the towns of Judah and the places around Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the Shephelah, from the hill country, and from the Negeb, bringing burnt-offerings and sacrifices, grain-offerings and frankincense, and bringing thank-offerings to the house of the Lord. But if you do not listen to me, to keep the sabbath day holy, and to carry in no burden through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates; it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 21:8
And to this people you shall say: Thus says the Lord: See, I am setting before you the way of life and the way of death.

Jeremiah 22:1-5
Thus says the Lord: Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word, and say: Hear the word of the Lord, O King of Judah sitting on the throne of David—you, and your servants, and your people who enter these gates. Thus says the Lord: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. For if you will indeed obey this word, then through the gates of this house shall enter kings who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their servants, and their people. But if you will not heed these words, I swear by myself, says the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.

Romans 10:13
For, "Everyone who calls o the name of the Lord shall be saved."

HOLD ON...NOT DONE YET....
 
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Ryan Collins

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God also gives people the ability and the OBLIGATION to make morally responsible choices (Gen. 2:16-17 and John 3:16-18) Sorry, I got tired of copying and pasting the verses. It would benefit you to search these truths out yourself in the Bible by reading it firsthand, if you even go that far.

Anyways, people are free, which is why Scripture consistently holds them responsible for what they do. As an example, Solomon in 1 Kings 11:6,9; 2 Chronicles 12:14. If the Lord was the cause of Solomon's turning from him, this passage makes NO sense whatsoever. Also, Zedekiah did evil in the sight of the Lord and didn't humble himself before Jeremiah in 2 Chronicles 36:12-13. Clearly, the explanation for Zedekiah's evil is his heart and not God's cause.

Even more, God is often frustrated and surprised by the choices humans make. Why would he be shocked and surprised if he causes everything, Bana? He was grieved about humanity in Genesis 6:6. He grieved over Israel and their continuous resistance to Him in Isaiah 63:10, Hebrews 3:8, 15 and 4:7. God is also saddened quite frequently and even amazed at how "stiff necked" people are in resisting him. You can find this in Exodus 33:3,5; Deuteronomy 9:6, 13; 10:16; 31:27; Judges 2:19; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chronicles 30:8; 36:13; Nehemiah 9:16; Isaiah 46:12; 48:4; Jeremiah 7:26; Hosea 4:16.

God's heart also breaks when his people choose to reject him, as found in Hosea 11. Also, people can and DO reject God's purpose for them, as found in Luke 7:30.

Tell me Bana, so far, how do these Scriptures make sense if man is not free, cannot choose, and God causes everything? God would be...delusional if that were the case.

God also does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone, as found in Lamentations 3:33. So how does that explain the fall, Bana?

He even pleads with people to choose him! You can find this in Isaiah 65:2; Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:11; Hosea 7:11; Romans 10:21. People choose their destiny for themselves as evident in John 3:18-19.

Need more or will do that for now, friend?
 
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Ed Bana

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OT

First, the Biblcal narrative reveals that God gives people the choice of whether to follow him. You've already glossed over a very important piece of Scripture, but I will re-post it for your consideration and maybe it will get through your brick wall of presuppositions.

Deuteronomy 30:15-19, which can also be cross-references with 11:26-28
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God* that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,


I will repost my Joshua 24:15 because that is OBVIOUS:
Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

Jeremiah 7:1-15
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: Stand in the gate of the Lord’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah, you that enter these gates to worship the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your doings, and let me dwell with you in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’

For if you truly amend your ways and your doings, if you truly act justly one with another, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, then I will dwell with you in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your ancestors for ever and ever.



Here you are, trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are safe!’—only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your sight? You know, I too am watching, says the Lord. Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel. And now, because you have done all these things, says the Lord, and when I spoke to you persistently, you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, (OH REALLY?!?!?!?) therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your ancestors, just what I did to Shiloh. And I will cast you out of my sight, just as I cast out all your kinsfolk, all the offspring of Ephraim.

Jeremiah 17:9-27

The heart is devious above all else;
it is perverse—
who can understand it?
I the Lord test the mind
and search the heart,
to give to all according to their ways,
according to the fruit of their doings.


Like the partridge hatching what it did not lay,
so are all who amass wealth unjustly;
in mid-life it will leave them,
and at their end they will prove to be fools.


O glorious throne, exalted from the beginning,
shrine of our sanctuary!
O hope of Israel! O Lord!
All who forsake you shall be put to shame;
those who turn away from you* shall be recorded in the underworld,*
for they have forsaken the fountain of living water, the Lord.



Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed;
save me, and I shall be saved;
for you are my praise.
See how they say to me,
‘Where is the word of the Lord?
Let it come!’


But I have not run away from being a shepherd* in your service,
nor have I desired the fatal day.
You know what came from my lips;
it was before your face.
Do not become a terror to me;
you are my refuge on the day of disaster;
Let my persecutors be shamed,
but do not let me be shamed;
let them be dismayed,
but do not let me be dismayed;
bring on them the day of disaster;
destroy them with double destruction!




19 Thus said the Lord to me: Go and stand in the People’s Gate, by which the kings of Judah enter and by which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem, and say to them: Hear the word of the Lord, you kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, who enter by these gates. Thus says the Lord: For the sake of your lives, take care that you do not bear a burden on the sabbath day or bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem. And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the sabbath or do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors. Yet they did not listen or incline their ear; they stiffened their necks and would not hear or receive instruction.



24 But if you listen to me, says the Lord, and bring in no burden by the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but keep the sabbath day holy and do no work on it, then there shall enter by the gates of this city kings* who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they and their officials, the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and this city shall be inhabited for ever. And people shall come from the towns of Judah and the places around Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the Shephelah, from the hill country, and from the Negeb, bringing burnt-offerings and sacrifices, grain-offerings and frankincense, and bringing thank-offerings to the house of the Lord. But if you do not listen to me, to keep the sabbath day holy, and to carry in no burden through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates; it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 21:8
And to this people you shall say: Thus says the Lord: See, I am setting before you the way of life and the way of death.

Jeremiah 22:1-5
Thus says the Lord: Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word, and say: Hear the word of the Lord, O King of Judah sitting on the throne of David—you, and your servants, and your people who enter these gates. Thus says the Lord: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. For if you will indeed obey this word, then through the gates of this house shall enter kings who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their servants, and their people. But if you will not heed these words, I swear by myself, says the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.

This does not addressed if they we drawn/dragged/forced/quicken or if they freely chosen??

I already posted Eph. 2:1-9 and John 6:44 showing us that God's Word not my opinion shows us carnal man is drawn/dragged/forced/quickencarnal man has a freewill to free choose God?



Romans 10:13
For, "Everyone who calls o the name of the Lord shall be saved."


HOLD ON...NOT DONE YET....
 
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Ed Bana

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Please explain to me how carnal man can have a freewill or choice towards salvation after reading the following?

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (HCSB) 14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate [c] everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated [d] by anyone.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (Amp) 13And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
15But the spiritual man tries all things [he [a]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].




1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (WYC) 13 Which things we speak also, not in wise words of man's wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, and make a likeness of spiritual things to ghostly men. [The which things we speak, not in taught words of man's wisdom, but in doctrine of the Spirit, comparisoning spiritual things to ghostly men.]
14 For a beastly man perceiveth not those things that be of the Spirit of God; for it is folly to him, and he may not understand, for it is examined ghostly [for it is examined, or assayed, ghostly].
15 But a spiritual man deemeth all things, and he is deemed of no man.
 
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Ed Bana

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Yes.


Jesus did not die in the OT. Salvation happens by the blood of Jesus not the blood of sheep and goats.


OT? Are you saying that those Scriptures are not applicable because they are the Old Testament?
 
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Ryan Collins

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Yes.


Jesus did not die in the OT. Salvation happens by the blood of Jesus not the blood of sheep and goats.
Yeah, I'm officially through with discussing any theology with you if you are not willing to take the Old Testament as a reasonable source for the nature and characteristics of God, especially how God interacts with His creation. Good riddance, my friend.
 
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Ed Bana

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Then don't. The OT are under the Old Covenant which is not the same as the New Covenant. This is baby's food.

Yeah, I'm officially through with discussing any theology with you if you are not willing to take the Old Testament as a reasonable source for the nature and characteristics of God, especially how God interacts with His creation. Good riddance, my friend.
 
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Ryan Collins

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Then don't. The OT are under the Old Covenant which is not the same as the New Covenant. This is baby's food.
I'm so glad the Christian church and the future of it does not rest on your theology, beliefs, and ideologies.
 
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Ed Bana

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< staff edit > < staff edit >

Explain to me how the blood of Jesus has anything to do with OT people of God?

It is a New Covenant, not the old.


< staff edit > < staff edit > < staff edit >
 
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lookingglass

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Ryan, I don't really believe that Ed's ideas on the non-existence of the will is supported by any traditional christian theism. Even Augustine and Aquinas believed in the seperate and distinct will of every man while insisting that god's will reigns supreme in salvation. But that is another post that we can circle at some other time. If anything is true about Ed,s ideas it is that they are platonic ,more in line with greek ideas on fate and deterministic philosophy. I just cannot see why he does not see the implication of freewill in the biblical texts.
 
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lookingglass

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Ed, you are right about needing a saviour and that without grace it is impossible to come to god. But you are missing a very important part of the process of salvation. God calls and opens our hearts to the message of the gospel but there still remains one important factor. It is our willingness to believe. We need to mix what we hear about the gospel with faith. SEE Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.
You see that salvation is a cooperative process. God calls and gives us grace to respond but He does not call us irresistibly. We must believe. Then and only then can we be empowered to the calling to walk the Christian walk. John 1:14 To as many as believed to them gave He power to become sons of God
 
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Ryan Collins

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Ryan, I don't really believe that Ed's ideas on the non-existence of the will is supported by any traditional christian theism. Even Augustine and Aquinas believed in the seperate and distinct will of every man while insisting that god's will reigns supreme in salvation. But that is another post that we can circle at some other time. If anything is true about Ed,s ideas it is that they are platonic ,more in line with greek ideas on fate and deterministic philosophy. I just cannot see why he does not see the implication of freewill in the biblical texts.
Good observation regarding Platonic ideas in his line of thinking. I don't think that it is a matter of him being unable to see the implications of free will in Scripture, but that he does not want to because it would cause great difficulty with his doctrinal stance of Christian universalism (as he has admitted to). As a Christian universalist, he cannot agree with free will. He believes that all people will be reconciled to God without exception and that there is no everlasting penalty for sin. He'll never grasp free will as long as he affirms Christian universalism.
 
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Ed Bana

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You are mixing apples and oranges.

Lets start with your last line.

John 1:14 To as many as believed to them gave He power to become sons of God

This is not carnal man this verse is addressing; this is believers. A "son of God" is not a man who is dead in trespasses and sin; he is a believer who has believed; who has overcome.

The discussion here is on the carnal man and how he believes.

The carnal man cannot believe spiritual matters for they are not spiritual; billions of God's people live their whole life for they were never called. They will be called in the ages to come. (acts 15:15-18).


Carnal man is a creature of darkness and that is the way God created him (created us), it was not man's choice to be this way. We were all born just like our great................grandfather Adam after the fall. We were born in darkness, our nature rejects all things of God until God turns on the light.

It is our mission and purpose can to for men in darkness, we can ask God to use us to hopefully to turn on the light on or quicken those who God has not called. The light is not something we have control of when it comes to the rest of the world. It is God who must draw or quicken and that is when the light is turned on.

"The Bible plainly teaches that fallen man is blinded to the truth; the soulical man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the Spirit. 1

Corinthians 2:13-15 which I have already posted..

Thus the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him. In the first place, he does not know he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation.

Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him In Christ is worth anything. All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.

Furthermore, the sinner is surrounded by circumstances entirely adverse to his acceptance of Christ i.e. born in N. Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc.

And finally, worse than all, 'the mind of the flesh,' a corrupt nature, an 'evil heart of unbelief,' a 'body of death,' that leans toward the bad and opposes the good continually; and mark you, all these things are circumstances over which the individual has no control and for which he is not to blame.



Ed, you are right about needing a saviour and that without grace it is impossible to come to god. But you are missing a very important part of the process of salvation. God calls and opens our hearts to the message of the gospel but there still remains one important factor. It is our willingness to believe. We need to mix what we hear about the gospel with faith. SEE Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.
You see that salvation is a cooperative process. God calls and gives us grace to respond but He does not call us irresistibly. We must believe. Then and only then can we be empowered to the calling to walk the Christian walk. John 1:14 To as many as believed to them gave He power to become sons of God
 
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Ed Bana

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< staff edit > < staff edit > < staff edit > show me one verse that declares man has a freewill towards salvation. You deny the content of John 6:44, Eph. 2: 1-9 1 Corin. 2:13-15 which all express man that God must quicken draw/drag/force the sinner. But you have not one verse to support your false religious idol. No where does it say man has a freewill or choice towards salvation; only in your man made religious mind does this occur.

I am still waiting for

Explain to me how the blood of Jesus has anything to do with OT people of God?





Good observation regarding Platonic ideas in his line of thinking. I don't think that it is a matter of him being unable to see the implications of free will in Scripture, but that he does not want to because it would cause great difficulty with his doctrinal stance of Christian universalism (as he has admitted to). As a Christian universalist, he cannot agree with free will. He believes that all people will be reconciled to God without exception and that there is no everlasting penalty for sin. He'll never grasp free will as long as he affirms Christian universalism.
 
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If the carnal man does not understand spiritual things then how did we ever receive salvation to become the spiritual man? We all were at one time carnal men.

So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17

We hear the word and choose to believe it or not. If we believe it; we become the spiritual man - if not; then we remain carnal.

That's the simplest I can put it.

Sorry! I came in after it was asked to got to original OP.
 
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Ed Bana

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Religion says this happens by freewill but this is only assumed. No where in scripture is there any mention of man freely choosing his own salvation. But God's Word does address this in context.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God&#8217;s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual DEAD man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.


"QUICK ."Quick means living and active &#8212; LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast



If the carnal man does not understand spiritual things then how did we ever receive salvation to become the spiritual man? We all were at one time carnal men.

So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17

We hear the word and choose to believe it or not. If we believe it; we become the spiritual man - if not; then we remain carnal.

That's the simplest I can put it.

Sorry! I came in after it was asked to got to original OP.
 
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lookingglass

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Ed , you stated the following>1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The text does not say that the carnal man cannot understand the message it rather says he considers the message of salvation to be foolish and thereby rejects it. The gosple message was spoken to all people by christ and his apostles with the hope that they would repent. If christ and his apostles were wasting their time preaching to people who could not understand the message then why did they preach to them in the first place?
 
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Ed Bana

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Of course the message of salvation is foolish and thereby rejects it; he is carnal and have not been quicken to hear.

Eph. 2;1-9 in context.

No it was not spoken to all people. It was spoken to the called. God is not calling the WHOLE WORLD NOW.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come.





Ed , you stated the following>1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The text does not say that the carnal man cannot understand the message it rather says he considers the message of salvation to be foolish and thereby rejects it. The gosple message was spoken to all people by christ and his apostles with the hope that they would repent. If christ and his apostles were wasting their time preaching to people who could not understand the message then why did they preach to them in the first place?
 
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