Relative Slavery

XTE

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Hehehe, "suffer from limited imagination."

That is a point scale appraisal. From my POV, people on your side tend to suffer from over-imagination. They play make-believe, AS ADULTS...

Obama a Kenyan? SURE! I can believe that!

It's here that I'll imply you need to "be a little more intelligent." Using your words....

Soros masterminding the whole world! ABSOLUTELY! Who doesn't BELIEVE THAT?!

Over-imagination is the problem....

Lack of imagination isn't a problem at all when you're trying to address reality. What don't you get about that?
 
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brindisi

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Still cannot provide any! LOL!

I'm not insulting you, I'm telling the truth. The truth insults you!


What is it with you guys from Texas? You're the second one to throw around the most juvenile of school yard taunts, and think you've scored a smack-down! Is this what passes for dialogue down there?^_^



You're asking that if I cared, I would read other posts. Well, here, if you cared, you'd detail it for the poor man.

Here, let me make it easy for you.

Libertarian Party, The Party of Principle:
Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom
 
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childofGod1

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But what happens when all the wealth created by the productivity goes to a few at the top?

If you are not being duly compensated, You should look for someone who is willing to pay more for the labor you're selling. By the way, how much of that $2000.00 worth of inventory did you personally pay for?

Consider my job. I make $8 an hour to sell and stock hardware. If I work for 8 hours and the store makes $2000 in profit that day, I get $64. If I work for 8 hours and the store makes $4000 in profit that day, I still get $64. I worked twice as hard, but saw none of the rewards.

You agreed to work for $8.00 an hour. If you would like a commission based job, look for one. You risk making far less than $8.00 an hour, but might make far more.

The owner, who's job was largely the same,

Is it? Are you responsible for getting the loans to buy inventory, paying the rent, paying the employees, making decisions, taking the loss when an employee or customer damages merchandise, collecting on bad checks, hiring, firing, taxes, complying with labor laws, staying current on product information, deciding what to carry, insurance, dealing with vendors, sales people and angry customers, and on and on. Did you invest your life savings in the hardware store? Do you risk losing your home if the store goes out of business? Tell me how your job compares.

takes all the extra money.

Extra? AAAAAHHAHAHAHAHhahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

Obviously you have no idea what it's like to run a business, especkially in a poor economy.

I don't consider it "CHARITY" for him to pitch in a little extra when full time workers still can't make ends meet.

But, Moooooooooommmmm! I neeeeeeeeeddd it... You agreed to work for $8.00 an hour. It's not your employer's job to make sure you spend it wisely, or to give you more money if you choose to live beyond your means.

If/when I make it to the top of the pyramid, I'll be happy to pay my share of the taxes toward healthcare.

I'm not holdiong my breath.

The "right" comes from my belief that a society has an obligation to look out for it's weakest members. I know you disagree with this point fundamentally though, we've had this conversation.

I believe that individuals have an obligation to care for the weaker individuals around them. I don't believe that government can fulfill that obligation, and in fact, makes it far more difficult if not impossible for individuals to do so. I do not believe that one individual or group of individuals has a right to demand or forcefully take what they have not earned from another individual or group of individuals.


By within their means I mean just that. Nearly all the poor people I know personally are way, way more frugal with their money than the middle class is, they just don't quite make enough for all the bills.

Nearly all, no make that all, the poor people I know have more than enough to meet their basic needs for food, shelter, and clothing. They want more spacious shelter, more privacy, nicer clothing, more convenient food, cars, phones, TV, etc. These are not needs. Let's just be honest about that. I can't imagine turning a hungry person from my door when I have food myself, but I feel absolutely no obligation to pay his rent while his parents have a perfectly good bedroom for him in their house.
 
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bricklayer

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We all kinda know eachother. It's usually the same crowd. Kinda like the road "nieghbors" one has along a road trip. We know who's left, who's right, who's young and sure, who's experienced and humble.

Whether or not one slaves their sense of success or failure, rich or poor, to their position relative to others, will determine every other social and economic decision one makes.
This is a defining calibration.

Those who disagree, on this subject, have absolutely no possibility of reconciling their ambitions. One will always produce and have more than the other, and the other will always seek to prevent that.

All those of us who do not enslave ourselves in such a way can do is resist the attempts of the covetous and envious from seperating us from the product of our contentment.

and i'm not above lying to do it
 
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acropolis

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Actually, the only way I can 'just look silly' is if I continue with this conversation. So, see ya.

Your position is morally indefensible so it is not at all surprising that you would decide to not waste your time trying to defend it.

Hoo boy,...you have a very strange and inaccurate idea about Republicans and Libertarians.

Please prove me wrong and show some compassion for those less fortunate of you.


Yikes! I'm a goat? I'm pretty sure I haven't been a goat before.
wave.gif

I guess you missed the metaphor. What I was saying was that you are going to go to hell if you don't support the poor. Jesus doesn't care about your excuses. (I don't think you're going to hell, because I don't think there is a hell, I just think you're a selfish person.)
 
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XTE

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What is it with you guys from Texas? You're the second one to throw around the most juvenile of school yard taunts, and think you've scored a smack-down! Is this what passes for dialogue down there?^_^





Here, let me make it easy for you.

Libertarian Party, The Party of Principle:
Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom

What is the "most juvenile of school yard taunts?" Again, you don't explain yourself at all. Please try...

With those two links, you didn't make it easy on me, you made it easy on yourself. At the same time, you don't address the argument that you are not the "Party of Principle," you are the "Party of Property."

"Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom." What a load of hogwash! Freedom is the dumbest concept, in that it is a zero-sum argument. Let me give you an example that is easy to register(at least should be):

Freedom from slavery, or freedom to own slaves? Both are freedoms! They are exclusive to one another though.

Let us put that into financial terms, which is all your party cares about to begin with:

Corporations can pay you a wage that allows freedom, or they can withhold fair wages to give themselves freedom.

Do you know what a finite economy is?

Your side is so full of poetry(i.e.: FREEDOM) it boggles the mind!
 
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childofGod1

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This is a clear demand for Evidence For Opinion. Failed logic.

I see. Your opinion that one group of people has a right to use the government to confiscate the property of another group of people needs no evidence to support it, only an oppopsing opinion does. Got it.
 
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acropolis

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We all kinda know eachother. It's usually the same crowd. Kinda like the road "nieghbors" one has along a road trip. We know who's left, who's right, who's young and sure, who's experienced and humble.

Whether or not one slaves their sense of success or failure, rich or poor, to their position relative to others, will determine every other social and economic decision one makes.
This is a defining calibration.

Those who disagree, on this subject, have absolutely no possibility of reconciling their ambitions. One will always produce and have more than the other, and the other will always seek to prevent that.

All those of us who do not enslave ourselves in such a way can do is resist the attempts of the covetous and envious from seperating us from the product of our contentment.

and i'm not above lying to do it

Please try to reconcile Matthew 25:31-46 with your attitude towards the poor. Assuming you actually care what jesus had to say about it. I suspect you don't.
 
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lordbt

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Your position is morally indefensible so it is not at all surprising that you would decide to not waste your time trying to defend it.
I defend my position here all the time. Some conversations, however, just arent worth my time.
 
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brindisi

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What is the "most juvenile of school yard taunts?" Again, you don't explain yourself at all. Please try...

With those two links, you didn't make it easy on me, you made it easy on yourself. At the same time, you don't address the argument that you are not the "Party of Principle," you are the "Party of Property."

"Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom." What a load of hogwash! Freedom is the dumbest concept, in that it is a zero-sum argument. Let me give you an example that is easy to register(at least should be):

Freedom from slavery, or freedom to own slaves? Both are freedoms! They are exclusive to one another though.

Let us put that into financial terms, which is all your party cares about to begin with:

Corporations can pay you a wage that allows freedom, or they can withhold fair wages to give themselves freedom.

Do you know what a finite economy is?

Your side is so full of poetry(i.e.: FREEDOM) it boggles the mind!

It's one link, not two.
 
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XTE

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We all kinda know eachother. It's usually the same crowd. Kinda like the road "nieghbors" one has along a road trip. We know who's left, who's right, who's young and sure, who's experienced and humble.

Whether or not one slaves their sense of success or failure, rich or poor, to their position relative to others, will determine every other social and economic decision one makes.
This is a defining calibration.

Those who disagree, on this subject, have absolutely no possibility of reconciling their ambitions. One will always produce and have more than the other, and the other will always seek to prevent that.

All those of us who do not enslave ourselves in such a way can do is resist the attempts of the covetous and envious from seperating us from the product of our contentment.

and i'm not above lying to do it

You'll have to lie to do it. It's not whether you're "above it or not." It is about you having to lie because it is a lie to begin with.

"One will always produce and have more than the other, and the other will always seek to prevent that." I can agree to "one will always produce and have more than the other," it is just the way it works. The other half of that sentence is just another boohoo story for the rich in this country who will never feel they have enough. What you FAIL to mention is that those RICH can influence your ability to produce at all in a finite monetary system. How does this concept escape you? The RICH can make it so you do not produce at all, that the shared commodity we love so much cannot be produced from lack of infrastructure, investment, or just simple market capital and starting equity.

It's called starvation. If I don't feed my dog, I can't expect it to play fetch in a couple of days due to low energy. If I do not invest in any way into a project, then that project is not there to compete with my diversified portfolio later on. Consolidation is all it is about anymore, thanks to Reagan and his "Ownership Society."

All the blood(money) is around the heart(rich) and the workers(arms) can't function any longer. HOW DO YOU SOLVE THAT PROBLEM? Your argument of "redistribution of wealth" only serves to send MORE MONEY TO THE HEART!

How long are we going to suffer contraction under your failed monetary policy? Wake up, and try to think of yourself as fallible just long enough to think outside of your tested and failed policies!
 
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XTE

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I see. Your opinion that one group of people has a right to use the government to confiscate the property of another group of people needs no evidence to support it, only an oppopsing opinion does. Got it.

Can anyone possibly help this guy make sense out of himself?

WHO ON EARTH HAS CALLED FOR THE CONFISCATION OF PROPERTY?

Take your Chicken Little "the sky is falling" rhetoric somewhere where it will work.
 
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Received

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The earlier discussion between lordbt and Umaro regarding what constitutes what one earns is a very fundamental problem that most people on the right fail to consider in determining the injustice of progressive taxation and redistribution of wealth. This injustice assumes, very simply, that everything a person owns as a result of his input in terms of labor is earned by him, regardless of the outcome. The only mediator in determining the ratio between one's input (one's actual work) and one's output (what one earns) is the market value of one's labor. This, of course, is relativism pure and simple. Looking for some absolute in terms of a fair input-output ratio (for what I put in, I get a certain amount) is a fair alternative, and is basically the driving force for regulations and progressive taxation and all sorts of other evil leftist schemes proposed by liberals and leftists in this country. In other words, deregulated capitalism works from the applied fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc: whatever I own is owned because it's after this (labor) and therefore because of this (labor).

The absurdity behind the relativism instilled by allowing the market to determine value (rather than holding that value is somehow intrinsic to the work itself) is argued in a former OP regarding work and parallel universes.

The problem is all about what determines whether a person "earns" what he does. Plato argued that the gap between rich and poor should be fourfold in any society. What would he think of ours, where the top one-tenth of one percent own 11% of all wealth?
 
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brindisi

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Your position is morally indefensible so it is not at all surprising that you would decide to not waste your time trying to defend it.

Please prove me wrong and show some compassion for those less fortunate of you.

I guess you missed the metaphor. What I was saying was that you are going to go to hell if you don't support the poor. Jesus doesn't care about your excuses. (I don't think you're going to hell, because I don't think there is a hell, I just think you're a selfish person.)

Maybe this post of mine on another thread will help you understand my Christian beliefs, and how they form my understanding of free will and the Christian call to help the least among us.


Free Will: Could you find some verses to support that statement? I swear that Calvinism isn't exactly the biggest proponent of "Free will".
Good thing I'm not a Calvinist.

In the story of the young rich man, Christ was asked "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Christ's answer was "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." The young rich man could not bring himself to do that, and simply walked away. When called to give freely he couldn't, and he was not forced to.

The message here is that the young man's riches belong to him, and he can do what he wishes with them. Christ called him to voluntarily give away his riches to help the poor, but didn't call him to give them to the tax collector for redistribution. That young man in this story was called, just as we are today, to freely give of himself to help those around him. He was, and we are, called to turn our lives to humility, and service, and sacrifice. And the story is not about money alone, but is about anything in our lives that we value so much we can't sacrifice it to follow Gods will. But nowhere in this story is there a call to set up government programs for redistributive justice.

Two additional scriptures emphasizing free will, though when addressing salvation, are:

Romans 10
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Also, can you explain how you extrapolated how individual responsibility for one's spiritual development can honestly be interpreted as individual responsibility for one's financial success? (if you insist on quoting parables, please explain why the parable is to be taken LITERALLY as opposed to figuratively, like any other parable).
I don't really understand your question here, but let me give a scripture that clearly calls us into account as individuals, not as a community.

Romans 2
5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

and a second scripture:

Romans 14
10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


Christian values have nothing to do with ANY of the four things you mentioned. And no i'm not speaking of your friends but I wonder if that is the best rebuttal you could manage?

I think you're wrong on this. The scriptures are chock full of messages of free will and individual responsibility, but you have to really stretch to believe responsibilities can be fulfilled through collective government action. When standing in God's presence and being called to account for my individual responsibilities, I don't want to be responding "Well, I paid my taxes."
 
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acropolis

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I love the implied boastfulness of libertarianism. The libertarian believes that only the strongest few deserve to be successful, and of course they themselves are more capable than most, so they will be successful. I always wonder how a libertarian would handle becoming disabled and losing their job. How could you continue to have social support systems when it's you who is unable to work and thereby prove your worth as a human? It must be like Marxists in the gulag, suffering under a system they cannot bring themselves to oppose.
 
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XTE

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I have an idea, why don't we tax 100% of every one's income and then allow the government to disperse the wealth according to what they deem is the fairest allocation of our resources? :idea:

Why allow the government to do what Corporations are already doing?
 
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acropolis

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Maybe this post of mine on another thread will help you understand my Christian beliefs, and how they form my understanding of free will and the Christian call to help the least among us.

If you can fail to understand such a clear message then I'm sure you can find a way to justify just about anything.
 
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