Can anyone explain the Thomist view of determinism/predestination?
Plus if you know, how does it differ from Calvinism?
Plus if you know, how does it differ from Calvinism?
Thomism?
- Thread starter RadixLecti
- Start date
Eucharisted
Well-Known Member
Thomism is a theology - one of many - in the Church. Just as Thomas Aquintas is a saint - one of many - in the Church. According to Thomism, "the elect are saved by the grace of God, which operates on their wills efficaciously and infallibly without detriment to their liberty; and since God sincerely desires the salvation of all men, He is prepared to grant that same grace to others, if they do not, by a free act, render themselves unworthy of it."
Calvinism is a heresy - one of many - which cropped up in the Church. Just as John Calvin is a heretic - one of many - who cropped up in the Church. According to Calvinism, "God chose who would go to heaven, and who to hell, and that his decision will infallibly come to pass. The difference between elect and reprobate is not in themselves, all being equally unworthy, but in God's sovereign decision to show mercy to some, to save some and not others."
Calvinism is a heresy - one of many - which cropped up in the Church. Just as John Calvin is a heretic - one of many - who cropped up in the Church. According to Calvinism, "God chose who would go to heaven, and who to hell, and that his decision will infallibly come to pass. The difference between elect and reprobate is not in themselves, all being equally unworthy, but in God's sovereign decision to show mercy to some, to save some and not others."
Upvote
0
Here's a quote from Aquinas:
Summa theologiae (1a.23.5)
The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).
Any thoughts as to what this means?
Summa theologiae (1a.23.5)
The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).
Any thoughts as to what this means?
Upvote
0
Colin
Senior Veteran
- Jun 9, 2010
- 11,093
- 6,889
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- UK - SNP
It means that God is a funny old guy in the sky .
I prefer the God of revelation , Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , who is too busy loving us than a man-made god whose concern is to engage in theology which is too heavenly to be of no earthly use .
Upvote
0
- Mar 3, 2006
- 33,112
- 11,338
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-American-Solidarity
The Church does not support reprobation in the way Calvinism does. St. Thomas speaks of a passive reprobation where it is not the cause. He writes:
In Thomism reprobation does not proclaim that the person can not or is not given Grace. But that by their actions in rejecting God they are reprobated, not that they are predesignated to be set away from God while others are the opposite.
St. Thomas adds:
Reprobation does not cause what there is in the present, namely moral fault, though that is why we are left without God. And it is the cause why we shall meet our deserts in the future, namely eternal punishment. The fault starts from the free decision of the one who abandons grace and is rejected, so bringing the prophecy to pass, Your loss is from yourself, O Israel.
So reprobation is, to Thomism, not an active cause it is the result of the free willed rejection of grace.
In Thomism reprobation does not proclaim that the person can not or is not given Grace. But that by their actions in rejecting God they are reprobated, not that they are predesignated to be set away from God while others are the opposite.
St. Thomas adds:
Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (Question 19, Article 3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
The Catechism comments:To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace
CCC Section 600
So our free will is the determining factor. God gives us all the Grace necessary to choose Him and we respond by acceptance or rejection. Since all moments in time are immediate to God some people may think this means we can not change if we go to heaven or hell...but we are each given all that is necessary and God does not predestine us prior to our actions but He sees the choices we make in a moment of all present time and gives us the amount of Grace necessary to accept Him. And we choose to accept or reject.CCC Section 600
Last edited:
Upvote
0
What is it, the two schools of thought? Thomas' view or Augustine's view?
I dunno... the only difference one needs to know (becuase the whole thing is enough to give one a head ache) is Calvin said the horse you rode in on is the horse you will ride out on and nothing you can do can change that.
It's the God actively choosing our destination all Catholic schools of thought reject. It's the GOD actively choosing our destination is Calvin's heresy.
Other than that, one has a lot of leeway in believing what they want- as long as one understands that it is only opinion and not "truth." You can't argue with ppl that either school of thought is *the* truth.
It's all just opinion and will always be... becuase this is an area the Church does not know about 100% becuase it is a mystery.
Calvin's greatest error is trying to define this and refusing to accept that it is mystery. So when you force the issue, you come up with heresy.
I dunno... the only difference one needs to know (becuase the whole thing is enough to give one a head ache) is Calvin said the horse you rode in on is the horse you will ride out on and nothing you can do can change that.
It's the God actively choosing our destination all Catholic schools of thought reject. It's the GOD actively choosing our destination is Calvin's heresy.
Other than that, one has a lot of leeway in believing what they want- as long as one understands that it is only opinion and not "truth." You can't argue with ppl that either school of thought is *the* truth.
It's all just opinion and will always be... becuase this is an area the Church does not know about 100% becuase it is a mystery.
Calvin's greatest error is trying to define this and refusing to accept that it is mystery. So when you force the issue, you come up with heresy.
Upvote
0
- Mar 3, 2006
- 33,112
- 11,338
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-American-Solidarity
Right Bene, that is why it is always described in Catholic thought as passive, or more aptly I think "reactive" since it is a reaction or result of our free rejection of God not His active choice of our destination.
Upvote
0
Calvin people tend to get hung up on "why" does Joe Blow choose God and "why" does Jane Doe reject?
Well, I dunno- why do you like Corn Flakes in the morning and I like Cheerios?
I just don't know why it is so critical. God does not need to choose for a person in order for Him to be sovereign.
IMO, Calvinism was designed purely for a human "need to know" and for no other reason.
It's just a mystery. We don't know why one would say yea to God and another would say no.
Well, I dunno- why do you like Corn Flakes in the morning and I like Cheerios?
I just don't know why it is so critical. God does not need to choose for a person in order for Him to be sovereign.
IMO, Calvinism was designed purely for a human "need to know" and for no other reason.
It's just a mystery. We don't know why one would say yea to God and another would say no.
Upvote
0
Everyone is given the means necessary for salvation and therefore if they are not saved, it's their own fault. St. Alphonsus explains this well with plenty of references to St. Thomas in the following chapters of a book he wrote on the relationship of prayer to salvation . After showing that God desires all men to be saved (and therefore antecedently wills all men to be saved and only consequently wills some to be damned), he shows that all men are given the means necessary to be saved so it is only the individual's fault if he is not saved.
It is my understanding that in Calvinism what God wills antecedently and consequentially will always be the same and that God antecedently wills some to be damned.
(I apologize for the crazy colors, etc. in the links).
It is my understanding that in Calvinism what God wills antecedently and consequentially will always be the same and that God antecedently wills some to be damned.
(I apologize for the crazy colors, etc. in the links).
Upvote
0
- May 19, 2015
- 125,492
- 28,588
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
JacktheCatholic
Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
- Mar 9, 2007
- 24,545
- 2,797
- 56
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
I think it safe to say that John Calvin is seen as a heretic for teaching heresy in the RCC.
Upvote
0
CreedIsChrist
Well-Known Member
reprobation is due to God's foreknowledge that a human beings free-will is closed off to his grace in his obstinacy, and he will forever be defiant and resistant to Him. I think a reprobate would be aptly defined in someone like Pharaoh, where his heart was so hard that it would not open at all to any grace and remain closed forever in its pride and obstinacy. Such a person is reprobate. A person who is so far and gone that his heart will simply refuse any calls to grace..Christopher Hitchens kinda reminds me of the actions of a reprobate..
I always was taught that Thomism was a type of theology that tried to explain God more through human intellect and reason alone, more solely or primly at least, rather than revelation, dogma, and tradition.
Upvote
0
2WhomShallWeGo
Well-Known Member
You could perhaps put it this way. If you want to Get to heaven you'll get there. If you love all things above God than he won't deny you. If you love something else more than God... well you might get that instead. Some people get more grace than others but all get sufficient grace to get to heaven. But we don't all choose heaven. We see this all as an ordered chronology playing out one moment after the other. To God all is one eternal instant.
Be careful Reading St. Thomas. He is The pure stream. But just because He is that doesn't mean you'll understand him always. He is excellent at making stuff that is very difficult very clear. But predestination is not easy for most people. And when reading ST Thomas it is always better to understand something of the philisophical tradition. He is a Master to be humbly consulted and the pre eminent doctor of the Church. His writings Crop up everywhere. When many of todays theologians and popes are less than dust in their graves his influence will still be going strong They may be infallible but that doesn't mean they're clear or useful. There have been popes who have tried to modify him but they always seem to become very unclear when they try to contradict him. which makes me chuckle.
Be careful Reading St. Thomas. He is The pure stream. But just because He is that doesn't mean you'll understand him always. He is excellent at making stuff that is very difficult very clear. But predestination is not easy for most people. And when reading ST Thomas it is always better to understand something of the philisophical tradition. He is a Master to be humbly consulted and the pre eminent doctor of the Church. His writings Crop up everywhere. When many of todays theologians and popes are less than dust in their graves his influence will still be going strong They may be infallible but that doesn't mean they're clear or useful. There have been popes who have tried to modify him but they always seem to become very unclear when they try to contradict him. which makes me chuckle.
Upvote
0
CreedIsChrist
Well-Known Member
haha true..
I have one reading of a Church council that was convened, I don't remember which one it was. But the only 2 books they brought to the council to be used were the Bible and the Summa Theologica..Obviously St. Thomas Aquinas is not a man to be blown off as his main book, the Summa, had enormous involvement in Catholic tradition in the middle ages and even today.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
