Exodus 15:7, Ex. 22:24, Rev 6:16, Job 20:28, Exodus 32:12, Num. 11:33, Job 21:20, etc. Wrath is expectation of the wicked (Prov. 11:23). The Earth will remble at God's wrath (Jer. 10:10). He has a "rod" of His wrath (Lam. 3:1). It abides in all unbelievers (John 3:36) who are objects of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Believers have not been appointed to wrath(1 Thess. 5:9). God swore by His wrath (Heb. 3:11) against unbelief. Christ will thread the winepress of God's wrath (Rev. 19:15).
Once again, I have not denied the wrath of God or that it is poured out upon the wicked, that God will "execute judgment and justice". But none of those passages answer the question that I asked. Where, in the scriptures, is God identified "
AS" wrath? The way that He is identified "
AS" love?
Sure, however, some do not repent. Read the consequences of unbelief and wickedness in Rom. 1:18-32.
See above. Just because God pours out His wrath in judgment upon the wicked does not mean that they are punished "endlessly" or that His judgments are "punitively" (rather than remedial) in nature. Is that how you would punish your children?
If we can attain "perfection" in this life then we would not have needed the cross. This verse is misunderstood by many. God is the only perfect being.
No one said anything about attaining perfection in this life, as you seem to think that I am reasoning it. Nonetheless, we are told to "be perfect". Are we not? And even Paul speaks of those who "be prefect". And we are told that we are "made perfect" IN LOVE. As that is the fulfillment of the law, isn't it?
I did, however, as I said above it is impossible for us to be perfect this side of heaven. God makes us perfect in His eyes by His grace through faith in the Son.
Why would you just assume that I was speaking about "perfection" in that way just because I mentioned the verse, when I said nothing of the sort? I can't know what Jesus means by "be ye perfect" if I don't believe in your definition of eternal torment?
Glad we agree of something.
So if we are "his workmanship" (even said to be clay in the Potters hand, by way of analogy) what makes you think that God cannot conform all men into the image of His Son when not a single one of us can do this 'for ourselves', for it requires GOD to write His laws on our hearts and even send us HIS spirit?
Because some men will not repent and remain natural men. The bible is full of admonitions to those.
Sure! and those who sow to the flesh reap to the flesh. How does that prove that God is going to punish them "forever and ever" because of it?
The veil that stands between that natural man and God is "the flesh" is it not? So what happens when "the flesh" is taken out of the way? Or do you not think God is able (or willing) to take it out of the way?
Yes it is and He has told us that "
true judgment" is
to show mercy and compassion. And what did Jesus say about who would love their master the most? Was it not "
to whom he forgave most? (Luke 7:40-43)
Remember that it is was the servant who would not forgive (as he has been forgiven) who was called the "
wicked servant" and who "
turned over to the tormentors" until he paid all that he owed. What did he owe?
LOL! I preach in my church every once if a while.
Ok.
Sure you do. Case in point in the Greek word aionios. All universalists that I have debated with (and there have been many lol) use the word outside of context. Actually, most verses that universalists posit as proof are isolated from context. I'll wait for you to posit a few so we can address them.
That's not what you said earlier. You said we change the meaning of the word altogether, redefining it to suite our own theology. When the truth is that any Greek concordance will tell you that aion mean "
an age" and aionios is it's adjective. Would you ever go around claiming that an "annual meaning" of the booster club is "never ever going to come to end" just because the "end date" is not known?
You can here. It's not offtopic.
Yeah, but not sure I want to continue to participate in this thread. I thought it was intended to be a more civil discussion to explore the topic. Turns out maybe that's not the intention. So we'll see.
BTW- I've probably read it before.
I'd be extremely surprised.
Nah, we have dictionaries and other tools to help with the word meanings.
Yeah, most likely the same ones we use.
