Why are atheists considered to be so dishonest?

JGG

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I've been spending the past while, trying to feel out Christianity's impression of atheists (the people, not the belief system). The most common impression that believers seem to have of atheists is that we are somehow inherently dishonest, and prone to lying and manipulation.

What is this accusation based on? I have my theories, but I'm curious as to where you suppose this line of thought comes from?
 

razeontherock

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Look at what hardihood says. I don't expect you to understand it much less accept it, but that'd be the thing to explore. Here's the text:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

Not that I condone suspecting anyone different from yourself of being manipulative, lying etc., but if you want to know what supports your observation, this is it.
 
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ephraimanesti

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I've been spending the past while, trying to feel out Christianity's impression of atheists (the people, not the belief system). The most common impression that believers seem to have of atheists is that we are somehow inherently dishonest, and prone to lying and manipulation.

What is this accusation based on? I have my theories, but I'm curious as to where you suppose this line of thought comes from?
MY BROTHER,

Let me give you my--and ONLY my--take of the subject you have raised. My feeling about atheism as a world view, is that it requires a "denial"--in the psychological sense--of reality in order to main in consciousness the idea that God could not possibly exist. (We are talking atheism, not agnosticism.)

Denial, as you probably know, is a subconscious action of the brain in pushing away all facts and information which contradict the fact being denied--in this case, the reality of God. It is, in effect, a self-induced blind spot in the area of denial to where we can circumvent reality and create our own little usage based upon how we want to see things, rather than how they actually are.

As an alcoholic/addict i am VERY familiar with this psychological mind-game--given i spent most of my life denying i had a drinking/drugging problem despite the mountain of evidence staring me in the face to the contrary. i was "dishonest", "lying," manipulative to the max--both to myself and others--yet was unaware that my pronouncements were, objectively, lies, dishonest, manipulative, etc.

i believe the same process pertains as atheists struggle blindly and desperately to convince themselves that there is no God when He is obviously alive and well and very much in control of the Universe.

So i wouldn't take the charges of dishonesty, lying, etc., personally. However, you might want to examine the reasons for them--i.e., a strong desire that the God Who very much exists NOT exist, and make the necessary corrections to your thinking in order to overcome the state of denial you have created for yourself and thus get back in touch with reality.

Doing this got me clean and sober; doing this will engender for you a loving relationship with your Creator, Savior, Lover, Life. Win/win for both of us!

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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MattRose

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My feeling about atheism as a world view, is that it requires a "denial"--in the psychological sense--of reality in order to main in consciousness the idea that God could not possibly exist. (We are talking atheism, not agnosticism.)...

i believe the same process pertains as atheists struggle blindly and desperately to convince themselves that there is no God when He is obviously alive and well and very much in control of the Universe...

So i wouldn't take the charges of dishonesty, lying, etc., personally. However, you might want to examine the reasons for them--i.e., a strong desire that the God Who very much exists NOT exist, and make the necessary corrections to your thinking in order to overcome the state of denial you have created for yourself and thus get back in touch with reality.
This argument is a nonstarter to atheists. They are convinced that you're the one in denial. Atheists don't see that "God when He is obviously alive and well and very much in control of the Universe" especially when babies burn to death fairly regulary in this world and children are a-- raped daily. It's much easier to prove that God isn't in control. But hark, fearth not, every day millions of atheists aren't praying that you will "make the necessary corrections to your thinking in order to overcome the state of denial you have created for yourself and thus get back in touch with reality."
 
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ephraimanesti

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This argument is a nonstarter to atheists.
MY BROTHER,

"Nonstarter?" What exactly is there to "start?"

Christians are charged by God with the simple task of "preaching the Gospel"--i.e., telling the Truth and demonstrating it through our lives. Once the Truth is told and demonstrated to the best of our abilities, we've done what our Lord has commanded us to do.

As explained by the Prophet Ezekiel, "The word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, I have made you a watchman . . . so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil way, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.' " (Ezekiel 3:17-19)

All this arguing and attempts to "prove" or "convert" is actually not part of the deal--except for those who just enjoy arguing. Atheists--complete with hardened hearts and closed minds--are well beyond human intervention or reason. Only God can deal with their issues, so, once the Truth has been told once, it appears best to leave it lay--the ball is in the other court and life's too short.

(Keeping in mind, of course, honest questions by honest agnostics honestly seeking the truth is a whole nurther issue entirely. There is a world of difference between the blacked--out--brain icon and the magnifying glass icon.)

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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Carian

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Oh, so its a blacked out brain? Friendly.. not really. But then, is this is a place for being friendly with Christians? I guess those who don't identify as Christian accept that they aren't going to be afforded quite as much respect as those who are.

(Then there's the whole thing about whether someone who identifies as Christian is acting in a Christian manner.. thats a whole other can of worms.)


I accept that some atheists fit the quotes in JGG's OP, but I was an atheist for a while, and I know a lot of atheists still. There is no reason to think that any individual atheist is any of those things, but still it seems they are expected to be.


But then, I'm not saved/Born Again/Baptised/churchgoing so I'm thinking my input is not required. I'm sorry to say it but some of the attitude shown towards people without some kind of specific Christian brand of faith is what put me on the path towards athaism in the first place, so I think its time I left.


Wow, fancy that. I never thought I'd write and post a "I quit".
 
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JGG

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Look at what hardihood says. I don't expect you to understand it much less accept it, but that'd be the thing to explore. Here's the text:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

Not that I condone suspecting anyone different from yourself of being manipulative, lying etc., but if you want to know what supports your observation, this is it.

That's somewhat close to my primary theory regarding this. However, I find it hard to believe that most Christians have this in the back of their minds while they admonish me. Call it a hunch, but I'm pretty sure it's something meatier.

Let me give you my--and ONLY my--take of the subject you have raised. My feeling about atheism as a world view, is that it requires a "denial"--in the psychological sense--of reality in order to main in consciousness the idea that God could not possibly exist. (We are talking atheism, not agnosticism.)

Denial, as you probably know, is a subconscious action of the brain in pushing away all facts and information which contradict the fact being denied--in this case, the reality of God. It is, in effect, a self-induced blind spot in the area of denial to where we can circumvent reality and create our own little usage based upon how we want to see things, rather than how they actually are.

Well, I am technically an agnostic (although one can be both agnostic and atheist, as the two terms relate to different things), however, I could just as easily say the same thing about theists. And in the vast majority of cases you and I would look at the same theistic religions, and probably a large number of Christian sects and agree that they are in denial. And yet, these people do not carry the same stereotyped stigma of being inherently dishonest, do they? I'm sorry, it is clear that this claim does not hold water.

i believe the same process pertains as atheists struggle blindly and desperately to convince themselves that there is no God when He is obviously alive and well and very much in control of the Universe.

Well, I for one do not need to convince myself that God does not exist. I see no way to do so. If there was, I would very much like to see it. However, it is hardly "obvious" that God is "alive" or "in control of the universe" at all. Nobody has ever presented me with anything that made it obvious that God was "alive" at all.

So i wouldn't take the charges of dishonesty, lying, etc., personally.

No, I do. How would I not?

Doing this got me clean and sober; doing this will engender for you a loving relationship with your Creator, Savior, Lover, Life. Win/win for both of us!

Fantastic. But, I don't see a need for such a relationship. For one, I'm sober.

This argument is a nonstarter to atheists. They are convinced that you're the one in denial. Atheists don't see that "God when He is obviously alive and well and very much in control of the Universe" especially when babies burn to death fairly regulary in this world and children are a-- raped daily. It's much easier to prove that God isn't in control. But hark, fearth not, every day millions of atheists aren't praying that you will "make the necessary corrections to your thinking in order to overcome the state of denial you have created for yourself and thus get back in touch with reality."

To be fair, I don't need reasons not to believe in God. Babies burning to death, and children being raped are not indicative of God, nor is it indicative of no-God. God concepts do not hinge on God being good, loving, caring, or even powerful. I simply have not experienced anything which warrants belief. I don't understand why that automatically makes me a liar.
 
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oi_antz

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I'm going to +1 for Ray's post. That verse is the one which converted me, and when I was put on the spot with that verse I really did have to be honest about what had been going through my mind. I would say if you are atheist, you would have at least considered the possibility that Jesus never came to earth and the whole story is a hoax, this is how dangerously close we can come to being deceived when we are not honest about whether God is right in what He says. Fortunately for most of us, the Christ myth is still a fringe theory, but I'm not sure how much traction it might gain if certain atheists jump on the band wagon.

Also MattRose, God is in control of the universe, but He doesn't seek to impose His will upon anyone, instead He seeks to bless those who honor Him and curse those who don't. This all pays off pretty quick. Those abhorrent acts of evil you mention are due to those who don't obey God or their very own conscience. I think it is safe to say though that the truly holy who separate themselves from such evil are the ones you ought look up to, and every evil person who turns from their sinful ways to strive for holiness is contributing good to the world instead of evil. To say that God hasn't provided us the necessary tools to accomplish this goal is to pass the blame from ourselves onto Him, and how does one expect to argue that it was His fault when they stand before Him to answer for their evil? There is a very good reason why God gave us the freedom to make our own decisions and that is it. In a binary world, there's only one of two directions we may go. God is only interested in harvesting the wheat and burning the chaff.
 
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JGG

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Also MattRose, God is in control of the universe, but He doesn't seek to impose His will upon anyone, instead He seeks to bless those who honor Him and curse those who don't.

Ummmm....Are you aware that the second part somewhat contradicts the first part?
 
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MattRose

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... Atheists--complete with hardened hearts and closed minds--are well beyond human intervention or reason. Only God can deal with their issues, so, once the Truth has been told once, it appears best to leave it lay...
You so funny. I can't post links but check this out
U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey

on the PewForum

So tell me why you think this Pew survey shows atheists know more about religion than christians? Is it because of the hardened hearts or the closed minds? Or could it be the closed minds are sitting on the pew beside you?

(Keeping in mind, of course, honest questions by honest agnostics honestly seeking the truth is a whole nurther issue entirely...
I bet you don't answer honestly. You'll say the survey was rigged, the Pew Forum is liberal, etc. I took an abbreviated version of the survey and missed 1 out of 20, by the way. I actually missed the definition of agnostic (talk about irony).
 
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E.C.

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I've been spending the past while, trying to feel out Christianity's impression of atheists (the people, not the belief system). The most common impression that believers seem to have of atheists is that we are somehow inherently dishonest, and prone to lying and manipulation.

What is this accusation based on? I have my theories, but I'm curious as to where you suppose this line of thought comes from?
"Us vs. Them" attitude mostly. I get it from Pentecostals who can't trust any Christian from a liturgical way of worship :|
 
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razeontherock

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That's somewhat close to my primary theory regarding this. However, I find it hard to believe that most Christians have this in the back of their minds while they admonish me. Call it a hunch, but I'm pretty sure it's something meatier.

Well, the "most Christians" thing you're hunching about, is not something I'd call 'meatier,' but superfluous, wrong, sinful even ...

Do any of us fathom the depth of G-d's forgiveness? That's the direction we all need to be moving!
 
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ephraimanesti

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So tell me why you think this Pew survey shows atheists know more about religion than christians? Is it because of the hardened hearts or the closed minds? Or could it be the closed minds are sitting on the pew beside you?
MY DEAR FRIEND,

"Knowledge of 'religion' " per se is of little value and in and of itself it does not indicate an individual's "christianness." Being a Christian has little to do with doctrines, beliefs, and practices--is is based primarily on one's personal relationship with God the Father through Jesus His Son by auspices of His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Christianity is experiential, not philosophical. The fact that you took a survey and missed 1 out of 20 is a good illustration of the meaninglessness of knowledge--assuming you haven't fallen on your knees before your Lord and Savior yet.

The Scribes and Pharisees had more "religious knowledge" than all of Jesus' disciples put together--and yet they didn't recognized and, in fact, crucified their long-awaited Messiah when He appeared.

I bet you don't answer honestly. You'll say the survey was rigged, the Pew Forum is liberal, etc. I took an abbreviated version of the survey and missed 1 out of 20, by the way. I actually missed the definition of agnostic (talk about irony).
The only survey i have any interest in is the one my Lord conducts at the end of each day--surveying how well i accomplished His will in the tasks He gave me to do. i must admit, in this regard, that i usually miss many more that 1--but there is always tomorrow and a new start.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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oi_antz

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Ummmm....Are you aware that the second part somewhat contradicts the first part?

I am aware that it could appear that way, yes. But if you understand God's nature you'll know that it is all about rewarding activity while putting the responsibility unto us. I think it's pretty obvious that God doesn't want robots that He can order around as drones, He wants living children who honor Him freely with truly heartfelt love.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Oh, so its a blacked out brain? Friendly.. not really.
Hey--i didn't design it, just speaking to what i see. What do you see?--maybe its some kind of Rorschach Test.

But then, is this is a place for being friendly with Christians? I guess those who don't identify as Christian accept that they aren't going to be afforded quite as much respect as those who are.
Why is telling the truth as i see it disrespectful?--again just speaking to what i see.

It has been my observation that people get all upset and feel all "attacked" and "disrespected" when they wonder, at some level, if what has been said might just be true--just a little. Just sayin . . . .

(Then there's the whole thing about whether someone who identifies as Christian is acting in a Christian manner.. thats a whole other can of worms.)
A Christian is not called upon the ignore the obvious nor to necessarily sugar-coat their observations. A question was asked and answered based upon my experiences and beliefs--which, hopefully, was what the question was posted to elicit.

I accept that some atheists fit the quotes in JGG's OP, but I was an atheist for a while, and I know a lot of atheists still. There is no reason to think that any individual atheist is any of those things, but still it seems they are expected to be.
Again, i think it boils down to the effects of DENIAL--dismissing what one does not wish to see.

But then, I'm not saved/Born Again/Baptised/churchgoing so I'm thinking my input is not required. I'm sorry to say it but some of the attitude shown towards people without some kind of specific Christian brand of faith is what put me on the path towards athaism in the first place, so I think its time I left.
At best that is the worser of two evils and, under the circumstances, rather pointless. When an atheist or agnostic posts a question, are they expecting to be agreed which, conciliated, placated, and given warm fuzzies--or do they want an honest answer.

Wow, fancy that. I never thought I'd write and post a "I quit".
Yeah, kind of bizarre under the circumstances. Reading back over posts i cannot see the horrors you describe and claim to be running from. Kind of seems like an attempt at a guilt trip to me.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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Ayersy

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I assume some can be dishonest, just as I see alot of Christians lying for Jesus, too.

Personally, I'm always honest, in fact, it's been noted as a bad thing. I'm often honest to the point of brutality, and I don't know when to shut up. On halloween, at a party, I was brutally honest to my friends and angered alot of them. I didn't see the problem, since I thought I was just telling the truth, but apparently, some things are better left unsaid.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Well, I am technically an agnostic (although one can be both agnostic and atheist, as the two terms relate to different things), however, I could just as easily say the same thing about theists. And in the vast majority of cases you and I would look at the same theistic religions, and probably a large number of Christian sects and agree that they are in denial. And yet, these people do not carry the same stereotyped stigma of being inherently dishonest, do they? I'm sorry, it is clear that this claim does not hold water.
MY DEAR FRIEND,

Well, it is true that DENIAL can pertain to both spiritual and unspiritual viewpoints vis-a-vis the opposing viewpoint, for a Christian, whose "christianness" stems from a personal face-to-face relationship with God, this would involve a state of mental illness where one fantasizes an "invisible friend" residing in their heart with whom they have a running conversation through the day. It is one thing of DENY into non-existence something that another holds to exist, but it is quite another to DENY into existence something that does not exist.

In other words, you would have to say that Christians are are mentally ill due to their person interaction with and Entity Who does not exist. Is that your point?

Well, I for one do not need to convince myself that God does not exist. I see no way to do so. If there was, I would very much like to see it. However, it is hardly "obvious" that God is "alive" or "in control of the universe" at all. Nobody has ever presented me with anything that made it obvious that God was "alive" at all.
It has been obvious since the beginning of time--the existence of religions seeking this "Ultimate Truth" stem back to the very beginning. Mankind is hardwired by its Creator to seek out said Creator.

Put another way by St. Paul, "What may be known about God is plain to all, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:19-21)

Think of it this way--IF GOD DID NOT, IN FACT EXIST, THERE WOULD BE NO ATHEISTS BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO DENY BELIEVING IN.

No, I do. How would I not?
Because if something is true it should be considered and accepted; if something is NOT true, it should be ignored and duck-backed.

What's the point of getting upset either way--either the person who spoke the word was trying to be helpful or he was a fool.

Fantastic. But, I don't see a need for such a relationship. For one, I'm sober.
"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." "For God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him will not die but have eternal life." "Behold, all the old is done away with and all things have become new." etc.

My getting clean and sober--through God's infinite mercy and grace!--just allowed me to advance to the starting line at which you are standing. We still both have the same race to run.

To be fair, I don't need reasons not to believe in God. Babies burning to death, and children being raped are not indicative of God, nor is it indicative of no-God. God concepts do not hinge on God being good, loving, caring, or even powerful. I simply have not experienced anything which warrants belief. I don't understand why that automatically makes me a liar.
Why do atheists/agnostics INSIST on blaming God for all the multitude of horrors in which our world abounds--when these horrors are perpetrated by human beings and their very existence is ample evidence of the deadly fruits of humans turning their backs on God and His Love? Far from being any "proof" that there is no God, it is ample proof that God exists but has been disdained and ignored--and the victims are paying the horrible price.

My Brother. at least consider this: The greatest horrors in the 20th Century--millions upon millions of our brothers and sisters brutalized and slaughtered--were perpetrated by atheistic societies. How can God be held responsible?

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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JGG

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I am aware that it could appear that way, yes. But if you understand God's nature you'll know that it is all about rewarding activity while putting the responsibility unto us.

That's still imposing His will onto us.

I think it's pretty obvious that God doesn't want robots that He can order around as drones, He wants living children who honor Him freely with truly heartfelt love.

I don't see how it's obvious. If God wants free choice He probably shouldn't attach eternal rewards and punishments to "loving" Him or not.
 
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