The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Reformationist · Nov 13, 2010

Hentenza said:
Cool. So if God pre ordains the "reprobate" to hell then why do you bother?

This is a common question asked of those who believe in predestination. Charles Spurgeon answered it well when he said, "If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didnt I must preach whosoever will and when whosoever believes I know he is one of the elect.

There is, of course, a greater reason than our ignorance of who is the elect. We preach because the Lord has commanded that we do so.

I'm curious about something. Do you believe in any form of predestination? If so, how do you understand it. If not, how do you avoid having a view on it, as it is an explicit biblical concept.

God bless

Reformationist · Nov 13, 2010

Just thought I'd share something that I find to be rather ironic. Reformed Christians, especially Calvinists, are often accused of being elitists. That is generally due to a person's ignorance as to the reformed basis for election. They simply see the word "election" and, despite that that word is found in the doctrines of every other Christian denomination, they presume that when the Calvinist is using the word they are claiming that the elect are the elect because of something about them, or that the reformed Christian is claiming that there is something special about the elect apart from what they've received from God. The irony is, reformed Christians, by the very basis of their view, consider everyone part of the elect, until they prove (if that be possible) that they are not part of the elect. Those who would call reformed Christians elitists, on the other hand, presume someone is not one of the elect until they do something to cause them to be included, i.e., say a prayer, recognize their need for a Savior, be baptized, complete a catachism, speak in tongues, etc.

Rather ironic, don't you agree?

cygnusx1 · Nov 14, 2010

chestertonrules said:
Convoluted reasoning.

God wants all men to be saved, but he allows each individual to choose his own path. We are free to reject the redemptive gift of Jesus.

A a Catholic, I believe that Jesus is God. I'm not sure what your faith is, but it doesn't seem as if you hold this view. Am I wrong?

Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Aquinas' Summa Theologiae contains a Question of 'Predestination' in which the Angelic Doctor lays it down that:

As men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away [... and] so He also not only gave things their operative powers when they were first created, but is also always the cause of these in things. Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop. Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause.

then there is Augustine who also taught salvation by electing Grace of God .

St. Augustine (354-430)

“[No-one] can, of their own power, abstain from sin. Only God's grace enables men to be virtuous. Since we all inherit Adam's sin, we all deserve eternal damnation. All who die unbaptized, even infants, will go to hell and suffer unending torment. We have no reason to complain of this, since we all wicked. [...] But by God's grace certain people, among those who have been baptized, are chosen to go to heaven; these are the elect. They do not go to heaven because they are good; we are all totally depraved, except in so far as God's grace, which is only bestowed on the elect, enables us to be otherwise. No reason can be given why some are saved and the rest damned; this is due to God's unmotivated choice "

[FONT=&quot]“Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He ‘will have all men to be saved,’ although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will.” (Enchiridion 103)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“And so that which is said ‘God wills all men to be saved’ though He is unwilling that so many be saved, is said for this reason: that all who are saved, are not saved except by His will.” (Epistle 217)[/FONT]

It seems "we" are more 'catholic' 'orthodox' than you !

cygnusx1 · Nov 14, 2010

chestertonrules said:
Your questions were answered in my response. Perhaps I need to be more explicit for you.

No. It is an act of love.

Of course, and it does.

God wants all men to be saved, but it is unlikely that all men will be saved.

God knows what we will choose. He knew who would accept his grace before he offered it.

"unlikely" ?

it's a certainty !

think it through ;

Why did God have Noah prepare an ark to save only eight people if He wanted all people to survive the flood?

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

jax5434 said:
The sad news is that if God predestined to save all, or even some ,regardless without exception, then the cross was unnecessary.

First, as predestination is an explicit biblical teaching, you must have some view on it. You cannot reject predestination out of hand and expect to have any credibility in your views. ALL Christian denominations have a doctrine on predestination.

Second, God's act of divine predestination wasn't purposed in a bubble. The Cross was the means by which God decreed to accomplish that which He had determined to achieve (predestined).

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Why would God predestination so few; and damn so many; seeing God has an election. God caused the fall so WHY should God condemnation billions who had no choice?

Reformationist said:
First, as predestination is an explicit biblical teaching, you must have some view on it. You cannot reject predestination out of hand and expect to have any credibility in your views. ALL Christian denominations have a doctrine on predestination.

Second, God's act of divine predestination wasn't purposed in a bubble. The Cross was the means by which God decreed to accomplish that which He had determined to achieve (predestined).

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
Why would God predestination so few; and damn so many;

I don't have a clue how many people will go to Heaven and how many to hell so I couldn't answer your question other than to say that whatsoever God does will bring Him glory and He will be unjust to no one.

Carian · Nov 14, 2010

Reformationist said:
I don't have a clue how many people will go to Heaven and how many to hell so I couldn't answer your question other than to say that whatsoever God does will bring Him glory and He will be unjust to no one.

I used to think that it was the 144,000 who had their names in the Book of Life .. but what do I know, I don't even go to church xD

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Really? The teachings of the Christian religion makes it very clear that billions and billions will be lost; and only a few saved. Is this issue also taboo? You are the one who used the example of "ALL Christian denominations"?

Reformationist said:
I don't have a clue how many people will go to Heaven and how many to hell so I couldn't answer your question other than to say that whatsoever God does will bring Him glory and He will be unjust to no one.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

144,000 is a spiritual number just like the WHOLE Book of Revelation.

Carian said:
I used to think that it was the 144,000 who had their names in the Book of Life .. but what do I know, I don't even go to church xD

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Carian said:
I used to think that it was the 144,000 who had their names in the Book of Life .. but what do I know, I don't even go to church xD

Sounds remeniscent of a JW (Jehovah Witness) belief.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

How about you explain the 144,000?

Reformationist said:
Sounds remeniscent of a JW (Jehovah Witness) belief.

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
Really? The teachings of the Christian religion makes it very clear that billions and billions will be lost; and only a few saved. Is this issue also taboo? You are the one who used the example of "ALL Christian denominations"?

Nothing I said indicated how many would go to Heaven and how many would go to hell. What I said was, predestination is an explicit biblical concept and, as a Christian, you are required to have a view about that concept if you wish to remain consistant with the Bible. You needn't have my view. However, you cannot just disregard the concept siply because you don't like it.

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
How about you explain the 144,000?

Which 144,000? The JW 144,000?

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

No the scripture? Why 144,000?

Reformationist said:
Which 144,000? The JW 144,000?

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
No the scripture? Why 144,000?

If there is Scripture on the subject you'd like to discuss that does not violate the forum rules, please post it.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Look at the number twelve in scripture and there is a spiritual pattern. 12x12,000 speaks of Gods elect. [/FONT]

Reformationist said:
If there is Scripture on the subject you'd like to discuss that does not violate the forum rules, please post it.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Well then how about answering the question about the 144,000?

Reformationist said:
..getting tired of the pointless banter...

Reformationist · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
Well then how about answering the question about the 144,000?

I told you, if you have Scripture in mind that you'd like to discuss, please post it and the point you wish to make about it.

I'll take a break for a bit to see if you can do that. If, when I come back, it appears you are still interested in prattling on without creating a profitable discussion, I'll leave you to it.

chingchang · Nov 14, 2010

Verticordious said:
God does not show favoritism. Everyone is valuable to God, but nobody is special.

You would think that anyone posting deep within the bowels of the CF Theology threads would have read the OT at some point...just sayin'....

CC

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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