The pre-Pauline Jewish Faith, what was it?

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aniello

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We do not encounter Paul until Acts 7. By that time the earliest of the congregations had been established with believing Jews and some gentiles.

So, what did these folks believe and were their beliefs salvific? Pre-Pauline, please, pretty puhleeze:). As Jews what did these first of the first Messianic congregations believe and was it saving belief?

We need to know, from your alls colligated knowledge base, what the very earliest expression of faith was and their practices, their orthodoxy and orthopraxy, if indeed they had any.

My wife and I still visit the MJ congregation we were part of establishing 32 years ago, but, being Jews we have returned to a more traditional Jewish Shul fellowship, sort of "ConservOdox", as the nearest actual modern Orthodox Shul is around 100 miles away. Our old MJ church and the 3 or 4 breakaways from it have become mired down in basically what we view as gentile originated caricaturization of what they think is Jewish. Sad. There are few actual Jews in any of them anymore. In our ConservoDox group there are others who are from the original MJ church as well as some traditional Jews who have become believers in Yeshua also.

We need to know so as to have more than just our own mere opinions on what and how to discuss things.

Also, on Sundays, my wife and I share the Word with some of my native relatives on a reservation north of here. They have come out of RCC and we have had to deconstruct the Augustin, Constantine back to Ignatius of Antioch-ism to get them back to a Bible based faith. Sola scriptura? Because of the wreckage that CatholoProtestant-ism has wraught upon these people you have to eradicate the deadly disease. I was raised Catholic, reservation style. My father was native, my mother was Jewish. Marriage was arranged by the 2 crafty, finagling, business dealing fathers of my 2 parents. Go figger.

We, the wife and I, want to present worthwhile material to both sets of our relatives and friends on something better than our own limited abilities and perceptions and/or opinions.
 

ShirChadash

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We do not encounter Paul until Acts 7. By that time the earliest of the congregations had been established with believing Jews and some gentiles.

So, what did these folks believe and were their beliefs salvific? Pre-Pauline, please, pretty puhleeze:). As Jews what did these first of the first Messianic congregations believe and was it saving belief?

We need to know, from your alls colligated knowledge base, what the very earliest expression of faith was and their practices, their orthodoxy and orthopraxy, if indeed they had any.

My wife and I still visit the MJ congregation we were part of establishing 32 years ago, but, being Jews we have returned to a more traditional Jewish Shul fellowship, sort of "ConservOdox", as the nearest actual modern Orthodox Shul is around 100 miles away. Our old MJ church and the 3 or 4 breakaways from it have become mired down in basically what we view as gentile originated caricaturization of what they think is Jewish. Sad. There are few actual Jews in any of them anymore. In our ConservoDox group there are others who are from the original MJ church as well as some traditional Jews who have become believers in Yeshua also.

We need to know so as to have more than just our own mere opinions on what and how to discuss things.

Also, on Sundays, my wife and I share the Word with some of my native relatives on a reservation north of here. They have come out of RCC and we have had to deconstruct the Augustin, Constantine back to Ignatius of Antioch-ism to get them back to a Bible based faith. Sola scriptura? Because of the wreckage that CatholoProtestant-ism has wraught upon these people you have to eradicate the deadly disease. I was raised Catholic, reservation style. My father was native, my mother was Jewish. Marriage was arranged by the 2 crafty, finagling, business dealing fathers of my 2 parents. Go figger.

We, the wife and I, want to present worthwhile material to both sets of our relatives and friends on something better than our own limited abilities and perceptions and/or opinions.

Well, Dodari, interesting post. Welcome back.
 
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Desert Rose

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Aniello and Contra, I beg you , gentlemen, forgive, in the spirit of brotherly love! So you misunderstood each other a bit, some harsh, undeseving words were thrown about, but we all make mistakes, who doesnt act like a clinical idiot now and then? I do it 3 times even before lunchtime comes. Who is perfect? You will be, when your wife becomes a widow, not any sooner

Dont count offenses, give the shirt off your back, go an extra mile..its hard, i know, but you both are so much godlier then I, and I can do it now and then, you make an impression of being much stronger spiritually then me !

Aniello,brother, may I give my 2 cents - it's truly hard to figure out with great certainty how they used to do it back then, but i am sure its a topic worthy of studying, even the historians opinions might vary.CM of all people, would be of help here, i know :) But as for self-hating of Jews ( essentially that is a loaded term, meaning antisemitic), its not applicable to someone who is a Jew by bloodline but not a Jew by religious practices. I am a christian Jew, and dont give a hoot about sabbath observances, and such. Am i selfhating? No, I am semitic to the core.

There are many israeli left who it appears, want to handle Israel to arabs and get pushed into the sea! Yet some are very religious, go figure.
Life is very, very complicated thing... But we love each other- most often not " for" but rather "despite"...
 
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The question is irrelevant if you accept that entire canon of the NT. Either Paul's doctrine is God inspired and his halacha is kosher, or it isn't. If it is, you must live by it, whether you like it or not.

Of course..if Paul can be shown to be teaching the Torah, this is a nonissue. However, if he's teaching against the Torah it is not kosher as Deuteronomy 18 points out :).
 
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ContraMundum

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Of course..if Paul can be shown to be teaching the Torah, this is a nonissue. However, if he's teaching against the Torah it is not kosher as Deuteronomy 18 points out :).

Depends also how one defines Torah, and then how one understands it.
 
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Depends also how one defines Torah, and then how one understands it.

Contra..I think that just depends on your interpretation :). Let us look at facts. The Torah is the Torah. We do not ever say "that depends on how you define God." God is also God.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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We do not encounter Paul until Acts 7. By that time the earliest of the congregations had been established with believing Jews and some gentiles.

So, what did these folks believe and were their beliefs salvific? Pre-Pauline, please, pretty puhleeze:). As Jews what did these first of the first Messianic congregations believe and was it saving belief?
Read the Talmud. And yes it was a saving faith. ;)

We, the wife and I, want to present worthwhile material to both sets of our relatives and friends on something better than our own limited abilities and perceptions and/or opinions.
How about the Torah? Pirkei Avot would be a GREAT idea for study material. You can't go wrong with the classics. ;)
 
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visionary

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In many ways, your ministry is a reflection of the kind of battle Paul was involved in. Deep into the wilds of Diaspora, pagan variants disguised as truth, you both are battling to removed the entangled thoughts and traditions of man from the Ways of God.

Your best clarifications are going to come from Yeshua Himself as it was His ministry to clean the House of Judah and Israel of the vain practices that cast the Words of God to the side for often selfish appearances of the popular religion of that day. But isn't that what all the prophets of old were called to do. You have a noble calling.

On the subject of Pre-Paul controversies, it was all the in-house battles that Yeshua dealt with. Yeshua was devoted to His faith in the nation of Israel to becoming a nation of priests for YHVH. Why?? Because they were the keepers of His Oracles.

Israel had gone through many ups and downs with their YHVH relationship, breaking the covenant, suffering the curses and receiving the blessings, fighting off the lies and foreign gods of neighboring nations, failing to keep them out of their gates and even wolves in sheep's clothing teaching traditions of foreign gods as if they were of YHVH's own desire for His people.

YHVH will have to be the best teacher, shepherd, messenger sender to instruct you in His Ways because history has a way of keeping repeating itself. Messianic Judaism is a movement struggling to return to the faith as it is found in Yeshua. Paul makes sense if your ministry is to the foreign god worshipers. Yeshua makes more sense to those struggling to be Biblically Torah observant without the orthodox traditions that make YHVH's Words void. For those who have just left Egypt whether spiritually or really, then a trip to Mount Sinai to receive His Words on how to draw the line would really help. If the battle is with those things specifically like Baal, then some of the experiences of the prophets like Elijah can help. Daniel is the best example for those who are in but not of the Babylonian world.

If you have a spiritual battle specific, there is many who can relate, and the overcomers truly can see and explain the way that YHVH lead them, which maybe of value for you and those whom you are ministering too or at the very least a lead which the Lord can inspire you for your work's advancement.
 
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aniello

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Thirty-five or so years ago it was thought that a thing to be called Messianic Judaism could be effective to reach the "unsaved" Jew. That was our emphasis and hope. But it has been sadly severely de-railed. I knew the Holocaust survivor that mentored many of the present day higher up leaders in MJ. A real mensch, had suffered so much.

But, mostly, the movement has failed to achieve its original goal. There have been precious few practicing Jewish educated Jews who have come into the fold and leadership.

Therefore, realizing this, I posed the original post herein at the top to seek help in conveying to my Jewish brethren at the Traditional Shuls we attend, if, and only if, asked by a Jewish brother or sister, the message of redemption through the blood of Jesus more effectively. David ben Yosef replied positively. So did FoT(please don't beat up on him) the evening or two past. Other than that this forum has been no help at all. Not many Jews stay here, at least on any regular basis. Possibly the S H J visits regularly, I dunno, I don't care, 3 legged stool or no. Two of the legs are broken.

Actually, I got a great deal of help indirectly by being referred, very indirectly, by 2 or 3 or 4 non-Jesus-believing Jews to a source of scripture and commentary used by the Counter-missionaries. The referrers were from another time, another place, not this. I will do my darndest never to betray or hostilely attack a proven friend and brother or sister. We may argue, but gut-shoot, no. But what effective answers did I get here. A veritable nothing. You're all occupied with Paul and the endless confusion the misapplication of his words have caused, for centuries. Note that I do not condemn Paul. Got it? Good!

MJ has seemingly become a very gentilized, sly(possibly inadvertent) form of replacement theology in terms and in practice. It ain't Jewish, very much.

Knock knock.

Whos' there?

Just another old Jew leaving.
 
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yedida

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I don't understand your most recent post?
I haven't done a large study of the infant church, I'm just beginning to get into it, but one thing I have found out is that they did not believe in once saved always saved! From what I've read so far, even during the worst of the persecutions, they (the bishops and/or leaders) were hard-pressed to accept someone back into the fold who had fallen under the pressure - they considered that person lost.
It also appears that the Torah was followed and the Sabbath was observed.
Reading the letters written by the bishops prior to around 350CE, Paul is mentioned no more than Peter and others. Actually Ireneaus and Ignatius and Clement I appear more often in the letters than Paul.
One early church history (I'm only in my 2nd and not far into it yet) that I've read said that Paul's "so-called" grace through faith only without works doctrine didn't really take hold till the latter half of the 4th century. (I know, 1 history isn't enough to make a true determination, but it's a start???)
Sorry, I don't have more to offer. Not enough information in my head yet.
 
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visionary

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All this doubt being batted about in the different threads will go a long ways in reconstructing the structure in which Yeshua has been shown to the world. While I am one of the foremost vocal people in searching for the truth, without tradition views holding me back, I am still a believer that trusts in God having a foundation, which He will not allow to be destroyed. It is taking a beating, with the "grace alone" crowd, which in turn has resolved the "letters of the law" to not want to hear another Paul's word is better than Yeshua on the matter, thus wanting to throw out Paul's word rather than systematically, prayerfully, studiously, and with history, scriptures, be able to let God speak to the heart on this matter. I have come to believe these are grave cracks in the faith, that could separate the people from

one.. the Holy Spirit working through His Word to speak to our hearts.. whether it is NT or OT....

two... the faith in the Word of God being preserved for us and God's hand has persevered enough that which is necessary unto salvation.. even with the errors of man...tainting it with preconceived notions and such.. these little things should not throw our faith, when it comes to the larger picture..

three... once this mooring is gone, then the gates will be opened for a whirlwind of delusions, conclusions, and confusion, such that not only is the Holy Spirit not recognized, neither is His Word, and thus millions will be swept away. Even the two witnesses will not be able to lead but a remnant who still recognize and hear His voice, and know it is the Holy Spirit as it pulls the dead letters, and brings them for as a living witness unto our hearts for conviction, redemption, transformation and ultimately the transfiguration of His People...

Let us not be wondering in the wilderness of sin, but let us go forth and listen again to the voice from Mount Sinai as He calls forth those who will obey Him. Those who trust Him and are transformed to the kind of people He has planned to re-create in us from the beginning. To the world when we have received the fullness of the Holy Spirit in us, they will think we are prophets of God, and we will be only witnesses to His Work...
 
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yedida

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All this doubt being batted about in the different threads will go a long ways in reconstructing the structure in which Yeshua has been shown to the world. While I am one of the foremost vocal people in searching for the truth, without tradition views holding me back, I am still a believer that trusts in God having a foundation, which He will not allow to be destroyed. It is taking a beating, with the "grace alone" crowd, which in turn has resolved the "letters of the law" to not want to hear another Paul's word is better than Yeshua on the matter, thus wanting to throw out Paul's word rather than systematically, prayerfully, studiously, and with history, scriptures, be able to let God speak to the heart on this matter. I have come to believe these are grave cracks in the faith, that could separate the people from

one.. the Holy Spirit working through His Word to speak to our hearts.. whether it is NT or OT....

two... the faith in the Word of God being preserved for us and God's hand has persevered enough that which is necessary unto salvation.. even with the errors of man...tainting it with preconceived notions and such.. these little things should not throw our faith, when it comes to the larger picture..

three... once this mooring is gone, then the gates will be opened for a whirlwind of delusions, conclusions, and confusion, such that not only is the Holy Spirit not recognized, neither is His Word, and thus millions will be swept away. Even the two witnesses will not be able to lead but a remnant who still recognize and hear His voice, and know it is the Holy Spirit as it pulls the dead letters, and brings them for as a living witness unto our hearts for conviction, redemption, transformation and ultimately the transfiguration of His People...

Let us not be wondering in the wilderness of sin, but let us go forth and listen again to the voice from Mount Sinai as He calls forth those who will obey Him. Those who trust Him and are transformed to the kind of people He has planned to re-create in us from the beginning. To the world when we have received the fullness of the Holy Spirit in us, they will think we are prophets of God, and we will be only witnesses to His Work...

Viz,
My intent has not been to discount Paul, it's been to reconcile. To be honest, everyone, including your bit about the oral law, has set me on another track and is helping. I've not been happily tearing down everything he did, in no way did I (nor do I) want to tear his pages out of the Bible.
I would have thought by now you'd know me a bit better than that.
But that is alright, some articles that were shared with me have led to others, and things are settling down inside me. I had just reached a point that needed some help/direction which I did receive.
I don't remember if it was you, or perhaps DRose, who commented that we humans are complicated creatures, how true!! I know enough of psychology to know that the Paul issue may not have even been the true issue but just one problem that reared its ugly head at any opening that something else had allowed. Whatever it was it was problematic and I sought help where I felt safe, made it to Tues. night bible study and chatted with Rabbi and things have settled down tremendously. Whatever was going on seems to have found a resolution. Baruch Hashem!!
I pray I can return the care and effort someday to someone else going through such a spiritual battle.
Thanks for the help, Viz, and everyone else who offered a praying hand.
 
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BigV

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actually, I'm now tempted with agnosticism because there does not appear any proof of the historicity of the NT book of Acts. If you read Acts, the Pharisees are afraid that the 'whole world' is becoming Christian (or believer in Jesus as the Messiah). There are THOUSANDS of converts, all new believers stay in Jerusalem.

(btw, post resurrection, Luke 24 says that the 11 Disciples worship in the temple continually)

Luke 24:50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts portrays Jerusalem as the leadership hub for the new Church. New believers sell everything and have everything in common, attend worship services daily, etc..

In Acts 8 we are told of a persecution, but the Apostles and the elders stay in Jerusalem and those dispersed go to Judea and Samaria (not throughout the whole wide world).

Once the Samaritans believe, Peter and John are sent to them (Acts 8) but then they return to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem remains the main leadership center, even in Acts 15, when the doctrinal differences arose between the Jewish believers and the Gentiles, Paul travels to Jerusalem to settle the matter.

YET... the Apostolic fathers are from Syria or Turkey. WHY not from Jerusalem?

This is a big deal for me, even as a Gentile believer, because without historical support for the sizeable community of believers in Jesus, the Christian apologetic fails. How could there be witnesses of Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem, if the resurrection accounts are written from Syria and Turkey about the events allegedly happening in Judea?
 
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visionary

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Viz,
My intent has not been to discount Paul, it's been to reconcile. To be honest, everyone, including your bit about the oral law, has set me on another track and is helping. I've not been happily tearing down everything he did, in no way did I (nor do I) want to tear his pages out of the Bible.
I would have thought by now you'd know me a bit better than that.
But that is alright, some articles that were shared with me have led to others, and things are settling down inside me. I had just reached a point that needed some help/direction which I did receive.
I don't remember if it was you, or perhaps DRose, who commented that we humans are complicated creatures, how true!! I know enough of psychology to know that the Paul issue may not have even been the true issue but just one problem that reared its ugly head at any opening that something else had allowed. Whatever it was it was problematic and I sought help where I felt safe, made it to Tues. night bible study and chatted with Rabbi and things have settled down tremendously. Whatever was going on seems to have found a resolution. Baruch Hashem!!
I pray I can return the care and effort someday to someone else going through such a spiritual battle.
Thanks for the help, Viz, and everyone else who offered a praying hand.

Yes, you have shown great faith in Paul's inspired comments along with the rest of scripture. The comment I made in the other post is more for those who have either swung one way or another away from where God has any tools to reach their hearts... His witnesses, which are the Holy Spirit, a great councellor, and the writtings of those of great faith who have gone before us found in OT and NT... I know that battle is getting fierce, and the soul is the prize.. May we all plead with the Lord to not let us go astray in this storm.. May we hang onto His Hem.. and keep our faith in Him in all this..:amen:
 
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yedida

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actually, I'm now tempted with agnosticism because there does not appear any proof of the historicity of the NT book of Acts. If you read Acts, the Pharisees are afraid that the 'whole world' is becoming Christian (or believer in Jesus as the Messiah). There are THOUSANDS of converts, all new believers stay in Jerusalem.

(btw, post resurrection, Luke 24 says that the 11 Disciples worship in the temple continually)

Luke 24:50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts portrays Jerusalem as the leadership hub for the new Church. New believers sell everything and have everything in common, attend worship services daily, etc..

In Acts 8 we are told of a persecution, but the Apostles and the elders stay in Jerusalem and those dispersed go to Judea and Samaria (not throughout the whole wide world).

Once the Samaritans believe, Peter and John are sent to them (Acts 8) but then they return to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem remains the main leadership center, even in Acts 15, when the doctrinal differences arose between the Jewish believers and the Gentiles, Paul travels to Jerusalem to settle the matter.

YET... the Apostolic fathers are from Syria or Turkey. WHY not from Jerusalem?

This is a big deal for me, even as a Gentile believer, because without historical support for the sizeable community of believers in Jesus, the Christian apologetic fails. How could there be witnesses of Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem, if the resurrection accounts are written from Syria and Turkey about the events allegedly happening in Judea?

James was the "leader" or first bishop of the Jerusalem congregation and it's "satellite" branches. It was to James, Peter and John that Paul made his way to to find out about the Torah issue. It was James who made the final decision regarding that issue.
What church "fathers" are you talking about? I've been doing quite a bit of studying in that area and there is much history connected with it. The Orthodox can actually trace themselves all the way back to the 12 Apostles (the RCC only as far back as Sixtus !, at least regarding the Passover and Sunday worship).
The gospels and letters that we have in our bibles are really just minor compared to the number of items being passed around from group to group, and the Apostles themselves as well as the next appointed leaders (bishops) and the next, etc., made the rounds as much as was possible.
I think Acts is quite historical and honest. It's just the only history of that infant faith that got chosen to be included in the canon.
I can't say much else, I've only just begun my study, but I've learned enough to know that we indeed do have authorities who carried on after the 12, chosen by the 12 themselves, and so on. Did these others make mistakes? Of course they did, don't we (and look at all we have to work with!)? Were they intentional errors? After what I've been going through, I think I can resoundly say "NO!!" Are they worthy to stick with and work through the errors to arrive at the truth? OH YES, absolutely!! The truth is, not "out there," but in that book we call the Bible (and in the many letters that we still have that were written by those other early church leaders).
I'm sure there will be others to do a much better job than I've been able to begin for you.
 
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visionary

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actually, I'm now tempted with agnosticism because there does not appear any proof of the historicity of the NT book of Acts. If you read Acts, the Pharisees are afraid that the 'whole world' is becoming Christian (or believer in Jesus as the Messiah). There are THOUSANDS of converts, all new believers stay in Jerusalem.

(btw, post resurrection, Luke 24 says that the 11 Disciples worship in the temple continually)

Luke 24:50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts portrays Jerusalem as the leadership hub for the new Church. New believers sell everything and have everything in common, attend worship services daily, etc..

In Acts 8 we are told of a persecution, but the Apostles and the elders stay in Jerusalem and those dispersed go to Judea and Samaria (not throughout the whole wide world).

Once the Samaritans believe, Peter and John are sent to them (Acts 8) but then they return to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem remains the main leadership center, even in Acts 15, when the doctrinal differences arose between the Jewish believers and the Gentiles, Paul travels to Jerusalem to settle the matter.

YET... the Apostolic fathers are from Syria or Turkey. WHY not from Jerusalem?

This is a big deal for me, even as a Gentile believer, because without historical support for the sizeable community of believers in Jesus, the Christian apologetic fails. How could there be witnesses of Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem, if the resurrection accounts are written from Syria and Turkey about the events allegedly happening in Judea?
Apostalic Fathers came after 70 AD when Jerusalem was torn wide open by wars... Judaism as it was in those days.. saw it as treason for those in the faith of Yeshua [believers that saw the "abomination" He spoke of and obeyed Him] for fleeing as instructed instead of fighting in the war effort.

... thus the connection was broken from mainstream Judaism of that day..

...at the same time..[also due to the increased tension of association with Judaism, Roman taxations and persecutions] gentiles were removing all connections from the faith in Yeshua except the Christ... and thus started the Apostalic Fathers' work in reconnecting the concepts with pagan theology to gain even larger bodies and thus by 325 AD it received its blessing from the Roman political parties..
 
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