Darwin and Jesus Existence

Nathan Poe said:

Personally, I don't doubt Jesus' existence -- in fact, I've gone on record as saying he was without question the single most influential person in human history.

But like all great people before and since, the mythology surrounding him has long since overshadowed and obscured the facts.

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Uh-huh.

Well, I've got some news for you: He's not even half-way through, yet.

He fulfilled 109 of 333 prophecies in His first advent; and He will fulfilled the other 224 in His second advent.

So -- just when you think it's safe to go back to sleep...

AV1611VET said:

Uh-huh.

Well, I've got some news for you: He's not even half-way through, yet.

He fulfilled 109 of 333 prophecies in His first advent; and He will fulfilled the other 224 in His second advent.

So -- just when you think it's safe to go back to sleep...

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Mathew 16:28 said:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

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Strike that one from the list.

AV1611VET said:

Uh-huh.

Well, I've got some news for you: He's not even half-way through, yet.

He fulfilled 109 of 333 prophecies in His first advent; and He will fulfilled the other 224 in His second advent.

So -- just when you think it's safe to go back to sleep...

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No offense but quoting that Jesus fulfilled a crap load of prophecies doesn't do much. If the skeptic believes that most of what Jesus is aclaimed to have done..is a forgery, then listing "fulfilled" prophecies will do no better in convincing them..since such a list could easily be fabricated as well. (i'm not saying that it is...but making a point)

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

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Strike that one from the list.

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In our defense, there are beliefs in something called Full Preterism, there are also fairly sound theological proofs as to how this can be true (that some have not tasted death) Theology is pretty much the Science of God...it does benefit you to look into it..rather than finding something that seems obsured and claiming a fallacy.

Sorry. I was just reading it literally. I am no Bible scholar.

JustMeSee said:

Sorry. I was just reading it literally. I am no Bible scholar.

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Its fine, I'm not trying to accuse you or anything. I just like pointing out things

Searching_for_Christ said:

No offense but quoting that Jesus fulfilled a crap load of prophecies doesn't do much.

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I disagree.

The voluminous Old Testament prophecies would have busted anyone trying to impersonate the Messiah.

Like I said before, the easiest person alive to discredit would be the Messiah, because He has so many prophecies attributed to Him; yet, He still has not been discredited -- and never will be.

Searching_for_Christ said:

If the skeptic believes that most of what Jesus is aclaimed to have done..is a forgery, then listing "fulfilled" prophecies will do no better in convincing them..since such a list could easily be fabricated as well. (i'm not saying that it is...but making a point)

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I could not disagree with this statement more.

No man -- (or group of men) -- would have been smart enough to forge such a list and get away with it.

Those who knew the Old Testament like the back of their hands tried in vain to discredit Him -- and couldn't find a single thing.

futzman said:

Okay, prophecies fullfilled AFTER THE FACT by someone who can read the prophecies and fabricate a story aren't proof.

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Again, let me make this clear:

No one was smart enough to write a story about a man who claimed to be the Messiah, and that story sway the public if it wasn't true.

For example, just as soon as they read Luke 2:1, they would have been standing around saying, "What? Huh?"

Luke 2:1 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The Roman Empire itself, which tried to stop Christianity before it ever got started -- (as well as the Pharisees) -- would have made Luke 2:1 required reading.

And the visit by the wise men?

Mamma mia -- that would have capped it for sure.

AV1611VET said:

Again, let me make this clear:

No one was smart enough to write a story about a man who claimed to be the Messiah, and that story sway the public if it wasn't true.

For example, just as soon as they read Luke 2:1, they would have been standing around saying, "What? Huh?"

Luke 2:1 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The Roman Empire itself, which tried to stop Christianity before it ever got started -- (as well as the Pharisees) -- would have made Luke 2:1 required reading.

And the visit by the wise men?

Mamma mia -- that would have capped it for sure.

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They would have said, "What? Huh?" because there was no such census. And no actual evidence of the wise guys.

AV1611VET said:

I disagree.

The voluminous Old Testament prophecies would have busted anyone trying to impersonate the Messiah.

Like I said before, the easiest person alive to discredit would be the Messiah, because He has so many prophecies attributed to Him; yet, He still has not been discredited -- and never will be.

I could not disagree with this statement more.

No man -- (or group of men) -- would have been smart enough to forge such a list and get away with it.

Those who knew the Old Testament like the back of their hands tried in vain to discredit Him -- and couldn't find a single thing.

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Actually, they did. The scribes and rabbis didn't believe he was the messiah.

Case closed.

Rilke's Granddaughter said:

They would have said, "What? Huh?" because there was no such census. And no actual evidence of the wise guys.

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Precisely.

But the fact that they didn't stand around scratching their heads, shows that the story was true.

Take the Samaritan woman at the well.

It's recorded that she went back into town, and the men of the town went out to see Him.

John 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Now -- if this story had been fabricated, don't you think the people of that town would have denied any such account?

And if the goal was for these men to write a fictitious story about the Messiah, why would they mention specific names, dates, places and events?

Rilke's Granddaughter said:

The scribes and rabbis didn't believe he was the messiah.

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Yes, they did:

John 11: 45 ¶ Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Nothing in those verses indicates they thought he was the messiah.

AV1611VET said:

Yes, they did:

John 11: 45 ¶ Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

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Rilke's Granddaughter said:

Nothing in those verses indicates they thought he was the messiah.

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Indeed -- what it does show is that they knew he was a powerful populist figure who was already a heretic (in their minds), gaining enough followers to rival the Pharisees, and a political question mark to boot.

It wasn't that they thought he was the Messiah, it was that they knew he had plenty of followers who thought he was the Messiah. Had Jesus started chanting "Down With Rome!" or something similar, enough of his followers would've taken up the chant to cause the Roman Empire to stomp down hard on the Jews -- a scenario the Pharisees were understandably desperate to avoid.

Their solution comes straight out of Politics 101 -- never pass up an opportunity to toss a rival under the bus.

This is the problem with AV's theology -- he's so eager to prove that his Bible is God, he tends to overlook the human factor.

AV1611VET said:

Uh-huh.

Well, I've got some news for you: He's not even half-way through, yet.

He fulfilled 109 of 333 prophecies in His first advent;

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Not exactly a rousing start, is it? If I had been one of his writers, I'd have had him "fulfill" at least 150 -- nothing like a nice round number to make people stand up and take notice.

But then again, I've got a pretty good working knowledge of mythology, so maybe I'd have an unfair advantage.

and He will fulfilled the other 224 in His second advent.

So -- just when you think it's safe to go back to sleep...

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Dream on, AV.

AV1611VET said:

I disagree.

The voluminous Old Testament prophecies would have busted anyone trying to impersonate the Messiah.

Like I said before, the easiest person alive to discredit would be the Messiah, because He has so many prophecies attributed to Him; yet, He still has not been discredited -- and never will be.

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Not so long as his followers eschew facts in favor of faith.

I don't recall you ever saying "facts can take a hike," but it would neither surprise nor disappoint me if you had.

AV1611VET said:

No man -- (or group of men) -- would have been smart enough to forge such a list and get away with it.

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You probably couldn't -- but there exist in this world smarter men than you.

Those who knew the Old Testament like the back of their hands tried in vain to discredit Him -- and couldn't find a single thing.

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You think that might have something to do with the story of Jesus and those men being written by men who also knew the Old Testament like the back of their hands -- and even if they didn't, they had the Old Testament in front of them as they wrote the story?

Nathan Poe said:

You think that might have something to do with the story of Jesus and those men being written by men who also knew the Old Testament like the back of their hands -- and even if they didn't, they had the Old Testament in front of them as they wrote the story?

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Thats a good point, so if we take this on board, we have to deal with the fact that despite these fabricated accounts being written so close to the actual time they occurred, there are no contradictory accounts written.

marktheblake said:

Thats a good point, so if we take this on board, we have to deal with the fact that despite these fabricated accounts being written so close to the actual time they occurred, there are no contradictory accounts written.

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The accounts were written between 30 to 60 years after the end of Jesus' death -- not too close for alleged "eyewitnesses."

And "no contradictory accounts"? Please -- tell me, according to those accounts that were selected to be a part of the Bible, after Jesus resurrected, where and to whom did he first appear?