Does anyone here know of any Africian American Saints?

JoabAnias

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Therefore, although it is interesting to speculate on the colour of Augustine of Hippo (who was not of African heritage, but of Greek extraction, living in North Africa as far as I am aware, indicating mediterranean appearance; olive skin), this really has little relevance to the question posed.

Its my understanding that St. Augustine was biologically linked to the North Africans who would later be called Berbers.
Augustine, a Roman African,[12][13] was born in 354 in the municipium of Thagaste (present-day Souk Ahras, Algeria), a provincial Roman city in North Africa to a pagan father named Patricius and a Christian mother named Monica.[14][15] Augustine's family name, Aurelius, suggests that his father's ancestors were given full Roman citizenship by the Edict of Caracalla in 212. Augustine's family had been Roman, from a legal standpoint, for at least a century when he was born.[16] While the townspeople of Thagaste were thoroughly Romanized citizens, speaking Latin and viewing themselves as Romans, the inhabitants of this territory may biologically be linked to the North Africans who would later be called Berbers.[17] Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I suppose one could dig deeper into his parents of Patricius and Monica but the earliest depiction of him from the 6th century (also seen on wiki) has him with dark complexion and features.
File:Augustine Lateran.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, this is why I always think of him as having had dark complexion and will continue to.

The same way I contemplate Jesus, Mary and Joseph (apostles etc.) in appearance similar to the people of their time and place.

Not fair skinned blue eyed Arians as the Europeans would later depict them to be, in their own image.
 
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Catherineanne

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Not fair skinned blue eyed Arians as the Europeans would later depict them to be, in their own image.

I think this rather misses the point. Just as Africans are more than welcome to depict the Madonna and Child as African, and Chinese people as Chinese, we blue eyed blondes depict them, and the saints, in our own image.

It is not about photography, but about identifying with them.

Augustine was probably olive skinned, dark haired. So was the Lord, although Middle Eastern rather than Hellenic. But anyone who wants to depict either as any race whatever is more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. If it helps to identify one's own spirituality with theirs, then why not?
 
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JoabAnias

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I think this rather misses the point. Just as Africans are more than welcome to depict the Madonna and Child as African, and Chinese people as Chinese, we blue eyed blondes depict them, and the saints, in our own image.

It is not about photography, but about identifying with them.

Augustine was probably olive skinned, dark haired. So was the Lord, although Middle Eastern rather than Hellenic. But anyone who wants to depict either as any race whatever is more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. If it helps to identify one's own spirituality with theirs, then why not?

Just speaking about reality which IS the point. The reality is Berbers are not Greek or olive skinned at all and Jesus wasn't a white European either.

You said Augustine was olive skinned as a Greek and thats simply not historically accurate so why misrepresent the truth? Neither was Jesus fair skinned.

But yea, anyone is open to delude themselves however they wish. A delusion doesn't make it reality. If people can't identify with someone as they truly are then I contend they probably can't identify with them at all so thats "why not".

Of course if one thinks someone isn't as good as another because of skin color; that prejudice may be another reason I suppose. My contention would still stand that one cannot identify at all then and this would be even better reason - "why not".

I happen to think Jesus was God as He was and Augustine is potentially the greatest Dr. of the Church and this white mans - black Patron. Melatonin level is completely irrelevant to walking in the Holy Spirit.

OK Easy, now I see what you mean about denial of a Saints ethnicity. :doh: ^_^. Its ridiculous.
 
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JoabAnias

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I concur with Catherineanne.

Concur with what exactly, the identifying with someone by making them like ones self in appearance or the misrepresentation of the historical facts that Augustine is in the line of the North African Berbers as the earliest depiction exhibits and who - although may not be very dark in all instances, look nothing like the Greeks?
 
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JoabAnias

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While Patricius (Augustine's dad) probably came from Roman stock, Monica (his mom) was a native African, so if anything he was biracial. I think it is important to remember that in the ancient Roman Empire one's class status (and wealth) were far more important than one's race.

About all I know of Patricius is that he was pagan. Do you have any more info on his background?
 
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Concur with what exactly [?]...

Did not our Blessed Lady Mary appear as Indian to the native Mexicans as Our Lady of Guadelupe? Did she not also, appear to the Chinese in in their countenance, as well; likewise, the same with our Lady's African apparitions? Icons tend to be portrayed similar to the ethinicity of whom they were written by. Hence, why Christ and Our Lady are portrayed as Causasian in some occasions, olive-coloured skin in others; still yet others as Oriental or Black African.
 
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Dark Radiance

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About all I know of Patricius is that he was pagan. Do you have any more info on his background?

A little bit, while be may have originally been a pagan he did not remain one. Unfortunately Augustine told us far more about Monica than he did about Patricius. The following excerpts are from my edition of the definitive biography of Augustine by Peter Brown (2000 edition):

"His father, Patricius, was a poor man a tenuis municeps a burgess of slender means...Patricius could claim as a relative the patronage of a local grandee, Romanianus...Augustine's father is lost to us...Augustine, a man of significant silences, will pass him coldly. He was 'generous, but hot-tempered'.Patricius had been immoderately proud of his son; he was admired by all for the sacrifices he made to complete Augustine's education... Patricius was unfaithful to her [Monica], she again waited, in silence, until, sure enough he became a Christian..."

"Thagaste [Augustine's birthplace and hometown] was administered from Carthage; but it had belonged to the old kingdom of Numidia...The Numidian inhabitants of Thagaste were closely related to the modern Berbers...the name Monica may even be an outcrop of the earlier beliefs of her family derived as it is from a local deity, the goddess Mon."

If Monica was of Berber stock, and Patricius (whose family had been in Thagaste for at least a few generations,and had intermarried with the local inhabitants) had Berber blood. Then Augustine probably looked something like the modern Berber male:

BerberMale.jpg
[/IMG]
 
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Just speaking about reality which IS the point. The reality is Berbers are not Greek or olive skinned at all and Jesus wasn't a white European either.

You said Augustine was olive skinned as a Greek and thats simply not historically accurate so why misrepresent the truth? Neither was Jesus fair skinned.

But yea, anyone is open to delude themselves however they wish. A delusion doesn't make it reality. If people can't identify with someone as they truly are then I contend they probably can't identify with them at all so thats "why not".

Of course if one thinks someone isn't as good as another because of skin color; that prejudice may be another reason I suppose. My contention would still stand that one cannot identify at all then and this would be even better reason - "why not".

I happen to think Jesus was God as He was and Augustine is potentially the greatest Dr. of the Church and this white mans - black Patron. Melatonin level is completely irrelevant to walking in the Holy Spirit.

OK Easy, now I see what you mean about denial of a Saints ethnicity. :doh: ^_^. Its ridiculous.

It's Melanin that gives skintone. Melatonin is a hormone released to help you go to sleep.

There's a difference.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Easy G (G²);56062983 said:
I'm curious to know why its the case that he hasn't been canonized now as well. Thanks for the info


Generally, it has a lot to do with the people who are devoted to such a person and pray to them for intercessions.

St. Theresa of Lisieux, had not only been canonized quickly, relatively speaking, but there was much more written about her.

This was because she had four sisters who were nuns, who wrote and promoted her cause for canonization.

If Pierre Toussaint had a larger following of devoted followers, perhaps his canonization would come sooner.

However, the bottom line is, from all I've learned about saints, is that their sainthood, seems to be in line with
what they would've desired while still here on earth.

St. Bernadette is probably my favorite saint. I've yet to find a devotion to St. Bernadette. Any devotion having anything to do with her, is toward Our Lady of Lourdes, or the Immaculate Conception. But in life, this is exactly how Bernadette would've had it.

Jim
 
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JoabAnias

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JoabAnias

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A little bit, while be may have originally been a pagan he did not remain one. Unfortunately Augustine told us far more about Monica than he did about Patricius. The following excerpts are from my edition of the definitive biography of Augustine by Peter Brown (2000 edition):

"His father, Patricius, was a poor man a tenuis municeps a burgess of slender means...Patricius could claim as a relative the patronage of a local grandee, Romanianus...Augustine's father is lost to us...Augustine, a man of significant silences, will pass him coldly. He was 'generous, but hot-tempered'.Patricius had been immoderately proud of his son; he was admired by all for the sacrifices he made to complete Augustine's education... Patricius was unfaithful to her [Monica], she again waited, in silence, until, sure enough he became a Christian..."

"Thagaste [Augustine's birthplace and hometown] was administered from Carthage; but it had belonged to the old kingdom of Numidia...The Numidian inhabitants of Thagaste were closely related to the modern Berbers...the name Monica may even be an outcrop of the earlier beliefs of her family derived as it is from a local deity, the goddess Mon."

If Monica was of Berber stock, and Patricius (whose family had been in Thagaste for at least a few generations,and had intermarried with the local inhabitants) had Berber blood. Then Augustine probably looked something like the modern Berber male:

BerberMale.jpg

Thanks! I have a new image of a young St. Augustine.
 
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Just as Africans are more than welcome to depict the Madonna and Child as African, and Chinese people as Chinese, we blue eyed blondes depict them, and the saints, in our own image.

It is not about photography, but about identifying with them.

Augustine was probably olive skinned, dark haired. So was the Lord, although Middle Eastern rather than Hellenic. But anyone who wants to depict either as any race whatever is more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. If it helps to identify one's own spirituality with theirs, then why not?


It often seemed to be the case that people could agree that Christ was our sacrifice, Savior, and that the Catholic church best expressed what His life was about--and yet for many, there could never be agreement that Christ was not one simply one who was skinny (unlike carpenters were), blonde and with "blue eyes"...and it was amazing seeing the firestorms that came of it when one began dialouging on the matter in differing circles. It's something that actually attracted my mom and I to the church we're now at when the Pastor (who's white) was teaching a series on Racial Reconcilliation between differing ethnicities and how presentation makes a difference in the growth of any movement for the Lord.


Of course, others may disagree. For as another individual noted in disagreement with me:
Another instance of making a God according to our own image, rather than the other way around.
Before the claims of racism start, I’m JUST as offended by the blond,blue-eyed, lilly white surfer boy Jesus. And the Asian Jesus. And all other attempts to make Him palatable by conforming His image to ours.It is idoloatry……….plain and simple. Jesus was a middle-Eastern man. There is no description of Him physically, but that doesn’t give us license to make Him a God according to our own lusts.

Black Santa?? Fine by me. Hispanic Tooth Fairy?? Hunky-dory. Jesus?? Sorry……….He’s not subject to the race mongers.

Jesus isn’t some fantasy figure to be molded into the perception that suits whatever particular race you prefer. He was a middle-Eastern Jew, and middle-Eastern Jews have particular characteristics.Of course there were a minority (in Israel) of Jews of many different shades (proselytes and minorities), and there is room for artistic interpretation.
However, doesn’t it seem odd to you that the interpretations in art are always those which pertain to the particular racial identity of the artist, or the community to which the Jesus depiction is heading??

As a lily-whitey, my depiction of Jesus as a blond, blue-eyed surferboy serves as nothing more than an attempt to make Jesus in my own image and likeness. Jesus is used as a buttress for my individual racial identity in opposition to the erasure of racial identity to be found at the foot of the Cross.As someone who dabbles in art a bit, my depictions of Christ don’t look like me, but like a middle_Eastern man. Brown skinned, dark eyed……….like the descendants of the Jews there look today.

Of course, as mentioned, Jesus could well have been even darker, or lighter. But the depiction of Christ as always in conformity with the racial makeup of those who display that piece is troubling to me.

My favorites are the Asian Jesus, and the Eskimo Jesus……….that’s the kicker. What does it say about us when we subconsciously insist upon accepting the Son of God as a reflection of our own race??

I see it as a reflection of our deeper desire to conform Him to our own spiritual desires, rather than accept both HE and His Words as they were.
Just a pet peeve of mine.



Though I can see where the individual is coming from, I disagree. Of course, there's no doubting examples of depictions of God as simply blasphemous (Ex: “Bruce Almighty”)--and for others to consider, there's Buddy Jesus (for those who ever saw the movie "DOGMA") which reflects an "image of Jesus created in the pulpits of America long before this idol was ever forged, seeing that far too many preachers are so hell-bent on preaching 'life application' and/or self-help sermons that their the ones who've trivialized Jesus

buddychrist.jpg




There's also "Football" Jesus....​













There's actually an entire line where these kinds of products are made---and for more info, one can go here to see it. Though for many, it was a matter of trying to "relate to Christ"--as many would hear of comments such as the following and extend the thought...

Hebrews 2 ---Now, minus the fact that Jesus said that we must become "like little children" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven as seen:
Matthew 18:3: "And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children [paidion], you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 18:4: "Therefore, whoever humbles himself [tapeinoo] like this child [paidion] is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."



Matthew 19:14: "Jesus said, "Let the little children [paidion] come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.""
Mark 10:13-15 / Mark 10

The Little Children and Jesus

13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will
Mental image does make a difference in the ways in which the Lord's percieved....and for one's who's a child, if they like Football, they'd quickly see the Lord perhaps portrayed in the role as the pic above showing Jesus.... Some churches, however, would say "Christ could never be portrayed as that!!!!!"---much as it was with other movements, such as the Jesus Movement from the 60's when people would say "Christ could never be portrayed as a Hippie!!!" in the movie Jesus Christ Superstar...or with what occured in the Charismatic Renewal in the 60's AND Other times like the Jesus Movement when many would say things such as Christ could never be that estatic/joyful as you claim...nor could it be this against conservatism!!!!!



“People relate by using their senses” and “visual representations of Christ, etc. are just an effort to reach people, entirely innocuous.” Like it or not, we ALL Have Mental images of Christ that comes to mind when thinking of Him, and those images were influenced by something we either saw in a painting at service, children’s church, or even a Christian movie……and that image, though perhaps close, may not be 100% accurate, but God still worked it for good….and that mental image was a part of connecting with the Lord as we sought to relate to Him, for using one’s imagination is a part of learning timeless truths, whether it be imagining the landscape of a biblical location when studying Biblical history, or imagining the look of the Burning Bush or Transfiguration of Christ bit by bit…..

Unless it hindered us in obeying Him or caused us to promote something like heresy---such as saying Christ MUST be what we wish to see Him as...


Regardless of the color/shades, The Gospel Message’s still the same. IMO, what makes the difference isn’t so much skin tone as it is conveying an accurate depiction of HIS CHARACTER/TEACHINGS.



For example, being a Child worker, I see this all the time whenever the children do crafts. Some wish to color Jesus as white, others as brown, and some even green.

However, there’re no benefits in being vexed about it since the children are being taught EXTENSIVELY on whom Christ was (i.e. His Divinity, message, mission, etc), sin’s ugliness, n’ the need for His Redemption/Lordship for our lives. Additionally, it’s encouraging to witness their growth in Love for Him.

Moreover, they’ll eventually square with His LITERAL APPEARANCE in time---which was a Hebraic/Middle Eastern Jewish man (though appearances can be similar to some things...especially in light of the reality of Ethiopian Jews and other similar groups), so why become indignant on the issue?

How would it look if 5 yr old Chang depicted Jesus Yellow n’ with slanted eyes, despite Jesus not LITERALY appearing as such and despite how Johnny earnestly seeks God, and I stopped him in class claiming “BAD JOHNNY!!! THAT’S NOT CHRIST’S APPEARANCE….IDOLATRY!!!!”?
Why would I belittle the importance of thirsting to be more like Christ n’ place more emphasis on KNOWING HIS EXTERNAL attributes rather than the ESSENCE of who He WAS?

Regarding idolatry, I believe the command was more than making images of gods…. Specifically, it was the importance of not Bowing Down in Worship of them (Exodus 20:4-5).

Images ALONE were not what constituted idolatry, but WORSHIP/Insistence of them as God. In Israel’s time, worshiping various statues/carvings was very popular….Pagan nations attributed all kinds of miracles/powers to them….But Jehovah was to be Distinct, not simply seen as another idol/statue made by man…Thus, He forbade them from trying.

That said, it seems imagery of Christ would qualify as idolatry if one were to worship that image, as if the image by Itself contained Power (i.e. thinking a depiction one made is THE real depiction of the Lord and therefore should be Revered).



Moreover, the “Idol” part would seem to be the insistence of Him ONLY being of one race, refusing to ever research/acknowledge His actual ethnicity.

Considering differing depictions of Christ ALONE as idolatry seems EXTREME, as it implies all art forms (ex. the timeless illustrations of Christ from the Renaissance, to crafts/artworks of Him at Christian Bookstores, and movie portrayals like “The Passion”) are condemned,….

And how many have been inspired to glorify God more after witnessing these masterpieces


19978_BlackJesus_Pg23_WEB.jpg


tim-jesus-jesus.jpg







secondcoming_l.jpg

1 Corinthians 9:5
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.





 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think this rather misses the point. Just as Africans are more than welcome to depict the Madonna and Child as African, and Chinese people as Chinese, we blue eyed blondes depict them, and the saints, in our own image.

It is not about photography, but about identifying with them.
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 5


Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7

Every tribe tongue and nation...


Though I've always wondered if when we get to Heaven people will see the Lord in the image of whatever culture they come from. In example, Asians will see the Lord in Asian Attire that's glorified while those in the Urban Hip Hop community will see Him in their style. I'm reminded of a song I use to listen to growing up (Ephesians 1:6-8/Ephesians 2:12-14), should you look it up on YouTube or GoogleVideo...:​

 
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JimR-OCDS

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Gxg (G²)

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Just as Africans are more than welcome to depict the Madonna and Child as African, and Chinese people as Chinese, we blue eyed blondes depict them, and the saints, in our own image.

It is not about photography, but about identifying with them.

Augustine was probably olive skinned, dark haired. So was the Lord, although Middle Eastern rather than Hellenic. But anyone who wants to depict either as any race whatever is more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. If it helps to identify one's own spirituality with theirs, then why not?

Some of what you're stating seems (IMHO) to be in line with the subject of what the Catholic Church did when it went into other nations/cultures and practiced Inculturation. I discussed the issue more in-depth elsewhere when it came to the subject of Christianity and Eastern Religions/Cultures and how disciples portrayed the Lord to the Asians when witnessing......and indeed, it has happened in multiple other ways with as with Asian Nations beyond China/Japan (as discussed here and here and #32 more in-depth). In one book entitled "The Jesus Sutras", there was an historical account given of the first Christian mission to China (led by the monk Alouben) in 635, a piecing together of various strands of evidence: a long-lost Christian monastery now used as a Buddhist temple (with Christian statues in the eighth-century pagoda), a sutra (holy writing) of stone in a stone library, and “The Jesus Sutras,” a collection of scrolls found hidden in a secret library that was sealed around 1005............and from these fragments, the author pieced together a framework for what these early Christians believed, how they acted and interacted with the myriad of cultures and religions around them.



For the early Chinese Christians drew upon imagery from their understanding of the Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Jainism and Shamanism of Tang Dynasty China, which allowed them to present a radical image of Christ as the Dharma King, sending “your raft of salvation to save us from the burning streams” - even saving us from karma and reincarnation.






Concerning another aspect of Inculturation/culturalization, there's also the reality of how many times believers had to make Christ/Christian concepts in the images of their own cultures due to being FORCED to do so rather than because it was their own preferenc. This is also known as "Crypto-Christianity" --which refers to the secret practice of the Christian religion, usually while attempting to camouflage it as another faith or observing the rituals of another religion publicly. In places and time periods where Christians were persecuted or Christianity was outlawed, instances of crypto-Christianity have surfaced before. In example, when it comes to Churches in China meeting under false pretenses as if they're with the state religion and using "dummy corporations" in order to have church meetings for true believers, this is something that many in the West would probably condemn. But due to Circumstances regarding persecution, it's a necessity--just as it was throughout various points in history, including the time when Hitler controlled much of the Church and believers claimed to belong to the organization and yet in secret they smuggled out Jews from the country/sabatouge from within.


For an example of such in action, one can go to a site known as Laputan Logic. As said there (for excerpt):
Japanese Whispers
07-1179AXTWN00.jpg

"Big Evening" Christmas eve. In a ceremony reminiscent of the Eucharist,
a priest places a ball of rice in the palm of another priest .
Image by Christal Whelan.

Christianity was first introduced into Japan with the arrival of Jesuit missionaries at Kagoshima in 1549. It thrived for a time and the Jesuits enjoyed some influence in the court of the daimyo of Nagasaki who was baptised in 1563. At their peak, the Jesuits were able to claim upwards of 200,000 converts to the Christian faith.

The authorities in Edo (Tokyo) viewed these developments with concern. Initially they allowed the Portuguese access to the southern ports for trade but Jesuit activity and the spread of this foreign religion came to be seen as a threat to national unity. This was exacerbated by the sometimes disrespectful and insolent behaviour of certain priests towards the beliefs and practices of the established religions of Japan. Christianity by its very nature resisted the kind of syncretism and melding of traditions that had characterised Japanese religion. The Edo authorities also viewed with suspicion any social movement that might possibly inspire insurrection in the notoriously fractious and rebellious south west.

The first anti-Christian edict ordering all missionaries to the leave the country was issued in 1587. While this was generally ignored it was followed by a series of bans and proscriptions culminating in a national ban on the religion in 1614 and a total suppression after the Shimabara uprising in 1638. Christians now routinely faced torture or death for practising their religion and many abandoned it and returned to the officially sanctioned religions of Buddhism and Shintoism. But a sizable remnant took the religion underground and continued to secretly practice it whilst enshrouding it with the superficial trappings of other faiths. This group became known as kakure kiri[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]an or the "hidden Christians".


07-1179AYBG300.jpg

Maria-Kannon: The Virgin Mary portrayed in the form of the
bodhisattva Kuan Yin who is known in Japan as Kannon [1].

In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, Kuan Yin is a deity of compassion and mercy and is often depicted with small children who serve as her assistants. These children can at times be impish and mischievous and one of them "Red Boy" caused Sun Wukong (aka Monkey) quite a lot of trouble in the Chinese novel A Journey to the West.

In the above image, the child depicted is really the infant Jesus Christ.


After Commodore Matthew Perry used gun boat diplomacy to force the Tokugawa shogunate in Edo to open its doors to trade, it was revealed that even after two hundred years of suppression there were still tens of thousands of practising Christians in Japan. Many of the rites and rituals which had been taught to them by St. Francis Xavier and the other Jesuit missionaries were still in use but having been transmitted as an oral tradition they survived only in a highly mutated form. While many Japanese Christians returned to the mainstream Catholic church after the religion was legalised in 1873, many others preferred to stay with their secret rituals which they performed in their hidden temples and private homes just as their ancestors did.

It is thought that only a few hundred kakure kiri[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]an remain today scattered in remote locations across Nagasaki prefecture. Most of them are now very old. On the island of Ikitsuki, the inhabitants have preserved a collection of 29 prayers which they call orasho (after the Latin word for prayer, oratio). Long ago the meaning of the recited words was lost and what remains is a chant made up of an amalgam of Latin, Portuguese, Japanese and a number of undecipherable or made up words.
Deusupaitero, hīryō, superitosantono,
Wareraga dēusu, santakurosuno onshirushio motte,
wareraga tekio noga[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]amiya.
Deusupātero, hīriyo, superitosantono minaomotte,
tanomitatematsuru, anmeizō.


In the 1820s a bible was compiled which drew entirely from the collective memory of the kakure kiri[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]an. The book tells us
...for example, of the young Holy One debating with Buddhist priests, as 12-year-old Jesus was said to have done with the Jewish elders. Two men, Ponsha and Piroto (ie, Pontius Pilate), are told to kill all children of five and under, an echo of Herod's order. Mary gives birth in a stable, but the innkeeper who had spurned her then takes her in: in a wonderfully Japanese touch, he offers her a hot bath.
See also:

Catholic Educator's Resource Center : Kakure Kirishtan

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Japanese Martyrs

A timeline of Christianity In Japan




For more info on the issue of Jesus portrayed in Chineese terms, one can go here:


chinese-jesus-supper-3.jpg






















I've seen this often when it comes to the ways in which Christ was portrayed in various circles......
 
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Generally, it has a lot to do with the people who are devoted to such a person and pray to them for intercessions.

St. Theresa of Lisieux, had not only been canonized quickly, relatively speaking, but there was much more written about her.

This was because she had four sisters who were nuns, who wrote and promoted her cause for canonization.

If Pierre Toussaint had a larger following of devoted followers, perhaps his canonization would come sooner.

However, the bottom line is, from all I've learned about saints, is that their sainthood, seems to be in line with
what they would've desired while still here on earth.

St. Bernadette is probably my favorite saint. I've yet to find a devotion to St. Bernadette. Any devotion having anything to do with her, is toward Our Lady of Lourdes, or the Immaculate Conception. But in life, this is exactly how Bernadette would've had it.

Jim


Interesting to consider, seeing that many saints may've deserved greater attention and yet after their deaths they're essentially forgotten.....or neglected due to a lack of crowds, whereas others may never have desired such attention
 
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