Husbands & Wives..

Sorry to be disagreeable right of the bat, but you started quoting scripture after the premise statement is given, in verse 21:

Submit to one another out reverence for Christ.

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That makes it clear that submission to one another, or mutual submission is the model.

bliz said:

Sorry to be disagreeable right of the bat, but you started quoting scripture after the premise statement is given, in verse 21:

That makes it clear that submission to one another, or mutual submission is the model.

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Thank you!

yup there is mutual submission between believers. the verses 22-33 is explaining the proper dynamic between a husband and wife. This is actually pretty revolutionary for Paul to be saying because at the time this was written, women had no rights and therefore there wasn't any real reason to think of them in any special way, much less treat them decently. By telling men to love their wives as Christ loves the church, he is lifting women up. And by telling women that they must submit to their husbands, he's reminding them that even if they are not receiving the respect that they feel they are deserved, God still expects them to submit and treat their husbands with respect.

Its actually quite an indepth marriage manual if you think about everything he's actually saying there. I know a lot of people like to take it out of context to say, "oh noes! he's telling women to submit! how dare he! we're nobody's slave!" but thats not what he's saying at all. We're not to become doormats when we marry (Does the Prov 31 woman sound anything like a doormat to you?) but we are to serve our husbands and we're to love our husbands. And they're to love their wives with a sacrifical love. Christianity itself is about self-sacrificial service to God and to one another, so I don't see why that should be so offensive.

so much for staying out of this

I agree with what others have already said. I guess I see from that that husbands and wives have different roles, fitting in with the basic differences between men and women. I read somewhere that what men most want from women is respect and I feel like that need is defined in verse 33. I also get a picture of how caring men can be from this - there is something tender about vs 25-29. I don't think men are portrayed as caring in western cultures a lot of the time. Is that something men feel they have to hide? (I have no idea, just a thought I had)

When I read through these verses I feel like it's a really tall order for the man. If I were a husband I don't know if I could live up to this. It also scares me because I would love to marry someone who treats me like this.. but then I really have to treat him the way the Bible says I should too. I have no excuse for slacking because he is doing it right. It's a lot to live up to!

I'm interested to see how men interpret their role and also what they think it entails in practical terms - I would love to hear some examples of how they would love their wife as Jesus loved the Church, because I think sometimes men and women interpret things in different ways, so my interpretation of these verses could be different to another person's.

bliz said:

Sorry to be disagreeable right of the bat, but you started quoting scripture after the premise statement is given, in verse 21:

That makes it clear that submission to one another, or mutual submission is the model.

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No offense, ma'am, but I'm going to have to disagree with that interpretation. Scripture says that we are to submit to those in authority. Does that mean that those in authority should also be able to submit to us?? Submitting to one another as believers is one thing. The submission between a man and his wife is another. This isn't about 'women slavery', this is about accountability before God. God has His chain of accountability set in order. 'For the husband is the head of the wife just as Messiah is head of the church.' That's accountability. It's not saying that Messiah and the church are in submission to one another. It's saying that in the chain of accountability, Messiah answers to God, the church answers to Messiah, husbands answer to Messiah, and wives answer to husbands. Elsewhere in scripture, is tells wives to reverence her husband!! What??? Usually we think of reverence to refer to God! You never hear of God telling husbands to reverence their wives! You never hear God say that husbands ought to obey their wives; they're only told to love her. Wives are told to obey and love their husbands. There's more going on here than just the fact that God put down some laws. It also has to do with the fall back in Eden!

TanteBelle said:

No offense, ma'am, but I'm going to have to disagree with that interpretation. Scripture says that we are to submit to those in authority. Does that mean that those in authority should also be able to submit to us?? Submitting to one another as believers is one thing. The submission between a man and his wife is another.

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Where does Scripture say that husbands and wives are exempt from the the command to submit to one another?

This isn't about 'women slavery', this is about accountability before God. God has His chain of accountability set in order. 'For the husband is the head of the wife just as Messiah is head of the church.' That's accountability. It's not saying that Messiah and the church are in submission to one another. It's saying that in the chain of accountability, Messiah answers to God, the church answers to Messiah, husbands answer to Messiah, and wives answer to husbands.

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Where does scripture spell out this chain of accountability?

As a Christian, I can go directly before God and He can speak directly to me. Why do I need my husband as an intermediary? He's a wonderful man, but he's not God. Why do I have to have a second-hand relationship with God? And, if I am single, what and I to do then?

Elsewhere in scripture, is tells wives to reverence her husband!! What??? Usually we think of reverence to refer to God! You never hear of God telling husbands to reverence their wives! You never hear God say that husbands ought to obey their wives; they're only told to love her. Wives are told to obey and love their husbands. There's more going on here than just the fact that God put down some laws. It also has to do with the fall back in Eden!

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Well, let's start with Ephesians 5:21 where all Christians, men, women, slaves, masters, children and parents, are all told to submit to one another. Why does that not mean that husbands are to submit to wives?

I think it's hilarious that Starry asked about husbands first and all the women responded hehehe. So I guess I should at least give some male perspective.

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This is the line that stands out to me. Because it kind of shows both the action needed and the motivation. Not completely, but it gives a great overall picture. Jesus took away our spots and wrinkles, etc. That accomplishes two things. It makes us better, and it makes us better for Him and brings Him more honor.

So the husband's role I feel is the same thing. We should be striving to present a "glorious church" out of our wife. We do that the same way Jesus did, through teaching, sacrificial love, and serving. We should constantly be building our wives up through our words and through our actions, always doing our best to keep them "holy and without blemish." Another big part of that is forgiveness. Like Jesus brought us forgiveness, we need to forgive our wives so that there is no guilt or regret held over her.

If we continually do those things, we will build our wives up and it will accomplish those two things. It will help her to become a better person, and it will make her better for us/ bring us honor.

Just on a side note, I don't want to downplay women and make it seem like they need us to build them up and make them better or something. Women are amazing and beautiful and wonderfully made. It's just, as husbands, our role should be to bring out the best in them, not to bring them down.

TanteBelle said:

No offense, ma'am, but I'm going to have to disagree with that interpretation. Scripture says that we are to submit to those in authority. Does that mean that those in authority should also be able to submit to us?? Submitting to one another as believers is one thing. The submission between a man and his wife is another. This isn't about 'women slavery', this is about accountability before God. God has His chain of accountability set in order. 'For the husband is the head of the wife just as Messiah is head of the church.' That's accountability. It's not saying that Messiah and the church are in submission to one another. It's saying that in the chain of accountability, Messiah answers to God, the church answers to Messiah, husbands answer to Messiah, and wives answer to husbands. Elsewhere in scripture, is tells wives to reverence her husband!! What??? Usually we think of reverence to refer to God! You never hear of God telling husbands to reverence their wives! You never hear God say that husbands ought to obey their wives; they're only told to love her. Wives are told to obey and love their husbands. There's more going on here than just the fact that God put down some laws. It also has to do with the fall back in Eden!

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Paul's request for mutual submission was made to the whole church. That is to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of the new community, which was not centred around rank and status, unlike Roman society. Paul took his cue from Jesus "Luke 22:25-28 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."

So the husband to whom a wife submits (voluntarily in the Greek, not because of a fixed hierarchy) is to be her servant ("as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her"). Chains of authority belong to a fallen society (flesh) not to the new community.

That 'chain' you mentioned in biblically and theologically unsound. Biblically, the only submission for a wife is for her relationship to her husband as her servant, not master. Theologically your position divides the Trinity and leaves out the Holy Spirit entirely. No bible believing Christian can accept that heresy.

The Fall? Yes. Prior to the Fall there was a complimentary and equal relationship. In Christ the Fall is being undone as the re-creation of our cosmos has begun. That is the clear message right through the NT, implicit in the title 'Christ' i.e. Messiah. We are being redeemed from the Fall as new creations, children of God, adopted children, a community of priests.

John
NZ

TanteBelle said:

No offense, ma'am, but I'm going to have to disagree with that interpretation. Scripture says that we are to submit to those in authority. Does that mean that those in authority should also be able to submit to us?? Submitting to one another as believers is one thing. The submission between a man and his wife is another. This isn't about 'women slavery', this is about accountability before God. God has His chain of accountability set in order. 'For the husband is the head of the wife just as Messiah is head of the church.' That's accountability. It's not saying that Messiah and the church are in submission to one another. It's saying that in the chain of accountability, Messiah answers to God, the church answers to Messiah, husbands answer to Messiah, and wives answer to husbands. Elsewhere in scripture, is tells wives to reverence her husband!! What??? Usually we think of reverence to refer to God! You never hear of God telling husbands to reverence their wives! You never hear God say that husbands ought to obey their wives; they're only told to love her. Wives are told to obey and love their husbands. There's more going on here than just the fact that God put down some laws. It also has to do with the fall back in Eden!

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Wait, hold on, she's supposed to reverence me? Hold on, I'm gonna go tell her that she's supposed to have been reverencing me all this time... let's see how this goes

But on a serious note.

StarryEyes said:

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Ephesians 5:22-33 (KJV)

Some of you may remember the thread started a couple weeks or so ago contemplating whether or not we should talk about the roles of the husband and of the wife in a Christian marriage. Well, here it is!

Let's start with the above verses.. pertaining to the husband only. Then we'll get to the wife after the discussion about husbands. What verses stand out to you about husbands? Is anything surprising to you? Does it remind you of a husband you know? If so, how? Is there anything in the above verses you want to point out or discuss further pertaining to husbands?

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A few things stand out to me.

First of all, to anyone who thinks they know and/or really understand these verses, really read them and/or think about them. Realize that in a time when women were thought of as much lower than men, practically as low as the animals, that Paul gave a command which amounted to yesteryear's equivalent of radical feminist ideology. And look at the sheer depth of how much the man is commanded to love his wife. Look at everything Christ did, and all of the suffering Christ undertook, for the sake of His church.

Not one single verse pertaining to the wife respecting the husband, is anything shocking for that time period. The big revelation was for wives to love their husbands.

But even more, people are so quick to overanalyze these verses and chop them down into the finest little details, of who should love who more, and who should respect who more. Why can't people just let God worry about the fine details, and strive to love AND respect their spouses as best as they can?

There's also the whole issue of folks taking verses such as 27, and the "avoid even the appearance of evil" verse, and misinterpreting them to mean that we, as Christians should "put on a face", so to speak, which not only is fake, but is un-Christian and is a very quick way to kill a marriage.

And there is not a "chain of command" that women are guilty of breaking if they "go over the man's head" and talk to God directly. This isn't the military or your job. We are all equally free to, and highly encouraged and mandated to, talk to God for ourselves.

peacechild4 said:

Sometimes I regretfully made my husband feel second to GOD.. which he got jealous over.. even if GOD was first.. I should never have made him feel lesser.. ohhh the mistakes you look back and see..

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W-w-w-waaaaait a minute!



Your husband IS second to God and his jealousy over it is his own issue... am I missing something??

YES... because I wanted my husband to know GOD.. and because he is an unbeliever right now.. he doesn't understand this concept.. I should have kept that to myself.. and then one day when he could understand it.. said something.. It is all about GOD.. I know that.. but we must be sensitive to others who don't believe in HIM.. and not make it harder for them...

That is why there is a passage about wives winning over their husbands simply by how they live.. believe me nothing I said about GOD really helped.. because my husband just cannot see.. except that I am a JESUS freak.. LOL.. and that made him more anti-GOD.. sigh

I think that verse in Scripture is pretty clear that submission is mutual. And to reiterate that point, the passage also says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. This means that a husband is to be willing to give up his life for his wife's sake. That seems like submission to me.

With that said, submission looks different for the husband and for the wife. The wife is submitting to her husband in the sense that she is allowing him to be the leader of the household. This looks differently depending on the couple and their situation. The husband, in turn, is submitting to his wife in the sense that he is taking what is best for her into account which means making decisions with her counsel. (People have a tendency to see the husband's leadership as meaning that he just makes all the decisions by himself with no accountability and that the wife doesn't need to have a say in anything. This isn't true) He is also giving himself up for her in the sense that he is working to support the family financially as well.

Where do people get that belief about a husband being the domestic leader?

John
NZ

bliz said:

Where does Scripture say that husbands and wives are exempt from the the command to submit to one another?

Where does scripture spell out this chain of accountability?

As a Christian, I can go directly before God and He can speak directly to me. Why do I need my husband as an intermediary? He's a wonderful man, but he's not God. Why do I have to have a second-hand relationship with God? And, if I am single, what and I to do then?

Well, let's start with Ephesians 5:21 where all Christians, men, women, slaves, masters, children and parents, are all told to submit to one another. Why does that not mean that husbands are to submit to wives?

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Where's the scripture that says that husbands are to submit to wives??? It mentions wives submitting to husbands, it mentions the husband being her 'covering'! It mentions her reverencing her husband, honouring, obeying, and so forth. Where does God spell that out for men? Submitting doesn't mean that she's a 'brow-beaten' wife. Or that she's stupid and can't think for herself and he's the 'all-knowing' one. It doesn't mean that what she thinks, feels, and believes doesn't matter at all. It doesn't mena that her opinions and concerns aren't important! It goes far deeper than that!

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is God.

It's not a matter of your husband being a mediator between you and God, that's not what it's on about at all. Yes, you can talk directly to God and scripture encourages that of wives! Think of Hannah for 1 example!!! But there's a difference between obeying your husband and walking with God, and over-ruling your husband by 'claiming to know more about God and His will' than he does! Scripture calls that a 'spirit of Jezebel'! It's a rebellious spirit which is why scripture does not condone the promotion of women as pastors and spiritual leaders. I'M NOT SAYING THAT GOD CAN'T OR DOESN'T SPEAK THROUGH WOMEN!!!! At times throughout the past, He has used women for His purpose. But women aren't to seek that out.

Parents are to submit to children????????? What kind of submission is God talking about!? It's clearly not that parents are to obey what children tell them! Because the command for children is to 'obey your parents in all things for this is right!!' 'Honour your father and your mother, for this is THE FIRST commandment with promise.' And parents in return are commanded to 'not to provoke children to wrath'. Being equal within the church and not puffing yourself up to be more 'spiritual' than the average pew sitter, is exactly what scripture is saying in accordance with the passage that says, 'Call no man 'master' or 'father' or 'teacher'/'Rabbi'; for there is One Father, and One teacher, who is your Father in heaven!' Paul told Timothy, 'Don't let folks look down on you because of your age'. Meaning that within the church, we ought not to look down on anyone because of their 'simplicity' or in prejudice to their age, for even the prophets and aposltes were uneducated, simple men!

Ephesians 18:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Yeshua Messiah;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Messiah is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Messiah, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

It's telling wives to submit to their own husbands. Not to the husband of Mrs. Mary Mack who's hubby is the pastor and says one thing but her own husband says another!

Johnnz said:

Paul's request for mutual submission was made to the whole church. That is to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of the new community, which was centred around rank and status. Paul took his cue from Jesus "Luke 22:25-28 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."

So the husband to whom a wife submits (voluntarily in the Greek, not because of a fixed hierarchy) is to be her servant ("as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her". Chains of authority belong to a fallen society (flesh) not to the new community.

That 'chain' you mentioned in biblically and theologically unsound. Biblically, the only submission for a wife is for her relationship to her husband as her servant, not master. Theologically your position divides the Trinity and leaves out the Holy Spirit entirely. No bible believing Christian can accept that heresy.

The Fall? Yes. Prior to the Fall there was a complimentary and equal relationship. In Christ the Fall is being undone as the re-creation of our cosmos has begun. That is the clear message right through the NT, implicit in the title 'Christ' ie Messiah. We are being redeemed from the Fall as new creations, children of God, adopted children, a community of priests.

John
NZ

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Precisely, sir! To the church as a whole, not within individual family units.

Where does scripture say that when it says a wife to submit to her husband, it's talking about him being her servant??? Chain of authority are for unsaved society??? Torah is full of chain of authority! The army is full of it! 'Captains of tens, captains of hundreds, captains of thousands, captains of ten thousands!!!' And in Revelation, what do you do with this passage?

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yeshua Messiah, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel (I believe that to be holy spirit) unto His servant John:

Wow!! What the??? God has a 'fallen society'??? God gave it to Yeshua, Yeshua gave it to the 'angel' and the angel gave it to John! Why didn't the Father just give it straight to John??? No, I don't believe in the trinity theory. Personally, I don't believe that scripture uphold that idea at all. But without derailing the thread, if you wish to ask questions on that sir, feel free to PM me!

I have to disagree with that last one! In Genesis, God says that He would make a help meet for him!!! Eve was never told that Adam was her help meet!! In fact, this is what the NT says about it ..

1 Corinthians 7:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Paulie079 said:

I think that verse in Scripture is pretty clear that submission is mutual. And to reiterate that point, the passage also says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. This means that a husband is to be willing to give up his life for his wife's sake. That seems like submission to me.

With that said, submission looks different for the husband and for the wife. The wife is submitting to her husband in the sense that she is allowing him to be the leader of the household. This looks differently depending on the couple and their situation. The husband, in turn, is submitting to his wife in the sense that he is taking what is best for her into account which means making decisions with her counsel. (People have a tendency to see the husband's leadership as meaning that he just makes all the decisions by himself with no accountability and that the wife doesn't need to have a say in anything. This isn't true) He is also giving himself up for her in the sense that he is working to support the family financially as well.

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Submission is preparing to sacrifice your life for one another? It sounds like ... sacificing one's self for another! Covenant love!

v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v.tr. 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.
3. To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose.
4. To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.

v.intr. 1. To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield.
2. To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

Personally, I don't really see how, EXCEPT when there is a case of the husband ordering the wife to go against what God has down as clear moral issues! Eg; a husband ordering a wife to participate in inappropriate intimacy, theft, murder, etc! In those cases,

Acts 5:29b ... We ought to obey God rather than men.

If he violates torah and orders other to do so (which is outside his authority to do), then he answers directly to God for that!

Sorry, StarryEyes, you did ask for the blokes position, maybe this is why! LOL! Women's roles are far more controversial!!! LOL!

TanteBelle said:

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is God.

I commented on this hierarchical view - it leaves out 1/3 of the Trinity.

for even the prophets and aposltes were uneducated, simple men!

Not true. Paul ranks as one of the greatest minds of antiquity. Luke was an historian without peer in the ancient world. Learning was carried out under the practice of discipleshipand was extremely rigorous thorough.

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Messiah is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Messiah, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Interestingly the word submit in v 22 is not even there in the Greek

Where does scripture say that when it says a wife to submit to her husband, it's talking about him being her servant???

Eph 5:25 Just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
NIV Commentators commonly understand this this as servanthood.

Chain of authority are for unsaved society??? Torah is full of chain of authority!

We are in NT times now. Look at that verse I quoted from Luke. Nowhere in the NT are the terms used for 'leadership' in the new community that denote positions of authority. Paul in particular only used terms taken from the lowest ranks of society, servants. There is also sufficient debate about the meaning of the Greek word for 'head' that we cannot assume that it does mean our equivalent of 'boss', 'one in charge'. It might in v23, but not necessarily.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yeshua Messiah, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel (I believe that to be holy spirit) unto His servant John:

Wow!! What the??? God has a 'fallen society'??? God gave it to Yeshua,

This is just ranting. Angels have a place. Nowhere the Holy Spirit referred to as an angel. Sometimes the phrase "the angel of the Lord" refers to Jesus (a theophany), but never to the third person of the Trinity.

Yeshua gave it to the 'angel' and the angel gave it to John! Why didn't the Father just give it straight to John??? No, I don't believe in the trinity theory.

Just what do you mean by this comment? I have always understood the doctrine of the Trinity to be amongst the most fundamental beliefs of bible believing Christians for centuries.

I have to disagree with that last one! In Genesis, God says that He would make a help meet for him!!! Eve was never told that Adam was her help meet!! In fact, this is what the NT says about it ..

1 Corinthians 7:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

In the original creation account both men and women were required to express fully the image of God. Adam alone did not. There was no hint of differentiation in role or status in that account.

The verses you referred to1 in Cor 11:7-10
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

The footnote to this verse (indicating an alternative translation) is
Footnotes for 1 Cor 11:7

11:7 b Or [4] Every man who prays or prophesies with long hair dishonors his head. [5] And every woman who prays or prophesies with no covering [of hair] on her head dishonors her head — she is just like one of the "shorn women." [6] If a woman has no covering, let her be for now with short hair, but since it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair shorn or shaved, she should grow it again. [7] A man ought not to have long hair

Adulterers and some prostitutes had shaved heads. Paul did not want the new community to send the wrong messages to society. Paul wanted married women to be clearly seen as married, and for men to follow accepted cultural norms too. The Romans feared hostile groups and intensely disliked Jews. Any appearance different from accepted norms would arouse Roman suspicions.

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Reread these verses I quoted previously. That is to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of the new community, in contrast to the surrounding society (then and just as much now in some ways I might add) which was centred around rank and status. Paul took his cue from Jesus "Luke 22:25-28 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."

There is a very upside down ethic within God's kingdom, nothing at all like those of the gentiles.

John
NZ

TanteBelle said:

Where's the scripture that says that husbands are to submit to wives??? It mentions wives submitting to husbands, it mentions the husband being her 'covering'! It mentions her reverencing her husband, honouring, obeying, and so forth. Where does God spell that out for men?

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Well, Ephesians 5:21, for starters.... and further in the same chapter, husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? He gave up everything for the church, His earthly life, His relationship with God... If a wife submits to her husband and a husband gives up everything for his wife, how is that not mutual submission?

Submitting doesn't mean that she's a 'brow-beaten' wife. Or that she's stupid and can't think for herself and he's the 'all-knowing' one. It doesn't mean that what she thinks, feels, and believes doesn't matter at all. It doesn't mena that her opinions and concerns aren't important! It goes far deeper than that!

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If it doesn't mean all of the above, what does it mean?

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is God.

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And what does 'head' mean? Many scholars contend that it means source.

It's not a matter of your husband being a mediator between you and God, that's not what it's on about at all.

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Previously you said that God talked to my husband and my husband talked to me.

Yes, you can talk directly to God and scripture encourages that of wives! Think of Hannah for 1 example!!! But there's a difference between obeying your husband and walking with God, and over-ruling your husband by 'claiming to know more about God and His will' than he does! Scripture calls that a 'spirit of Jezebel'! It's a rebellious spirit which is why scripture does not condone the promotion of women as pastors and spiritual leaders. I'M NOT SAYING THAT GOD CAN'T OR DOESN'T SPEAK THROUGH WOMEN!!!! At times throughout the past, He has used women for His purpose. But women aren't to seek that out.

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Hmmm... what do you make of Abigail?

Why are women not to "seek that out"? Where is that forbidden to women? I remember Mary sitting in with the disciples in Bethany and Jesus saying that she had chosen the better part, and that it would not be taken from her. Where does scripture warn us of the spirit of Jezebal?

Parents are to submit to children????????? What kind of submission is God talking about!? It's clearly not that parents are to obey what children tell them! Because the command for children is to 'obey your parents in all things for this is right!!' 'Honour your father and your mother, for this is THE FIRST commandment with promise.' And parents in return are commanded to 'not to provoke children to wrath'. Being equal within the church and not puffing yourself up to be more 'spiritual' than the average pew sitter, is exactly what scripture is saying in accordance with the passage that says, 'Call no man 'master' or 'father' or 'teacher'/'Rabbi'; for there is One Father, and One teacher, who is your Father in heaven!' Paul told Timothy, 'Don't let folks look down on you because of your age'. Meaning that within the church, we ought not to look down on anyone because of their 'simplicity' or in prejudice to their age, for even the prophets and aposltes were uneducated, simple men!

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Are children included among the people we should not look down on? You seem to be making my point.... My eternal relationship with my children is as their sister in the Lord.