Where does Scripture say that husbands and wives are exempt from the the command to submit to one another?
Where does scripture spell out this chain of accountability?
As a Christian, I can go directly before God and He can speak directly to me. Why do I need my husband as an intermediary? He's a wonderful man, but he's not God. Why do I have to have a second-hand relationship with God? And, if I am single, what and I to do then?
Well, let's start with Ephesians 5:21 where all Christians, men, women, slaves, masters, children and parents, are all told to submit to one another. Why does that not mean that husbands are to submit to wives?
Where's the scripture that says that
husbands are to
submit to
wives??? It mentions wives submitting to husbands, it mentions the husband being her 'covering'! It mentions her reverencing her husband, honouring, obeying, and so forth. Where does God spell that out for men? Submitting doesn't mean that she's a 'brow-beaten' wife. Or that she's stupid and can't think for herself and he's the 'all-knowing' one. It doesn't mean that what she thinks, feels, and believes doesn't matter at all. It doesn't mena that her opinions and concerns aren't important! It goes far deeper than that!
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is God.
It's not a matter of your husband being a mediator between you and God, that's not what it's on about at all. Yes, you can talk directly to God and scripture encourages that of wives! Think of Hannah for 1 example!!! But there's a difference between obeying your husband and walking with God, and over-ruling your husband by 'claiming to know more about God and His will' than he does! Scripture calls that a 'spirit of Jezebel'! It's a rebellious spirit which is why scripture does not condone the promotion of women as pastors and spiritual leaders. I'M NOT SAYING THAT GOD CAN'T OR DOESN'T SPEAK THROUGH WOMEN!!!! At times throughout the past, He has used women for His purpose. But women aren't to
seek that out.
Parents are to submit to children????????? What kind of submission is God talking about!? It's clearly not that parents are to obey what children tell them! Because the command for children is to 'obey your parents in
all things for this is right!!' 'Honour your father and your mother, for this is THE FIRST commandment with promise.' And parents in return are commanded to 'not to provoke children to wrath'. Being equal within the church and not puffing yourself up to be more 'spiritual' than the average pew sitter, is exactly what scripture is saying in accordance with the passage that says, 'Call no man 'master' or 'father' or 'teacher'/'Rabbi'; for there is One Father, and One teacher, who is your Father in heaven!' Paul told Timothy, 'Don't let folks look down on you because of your age'. Meaning that within the church, we ought not to look down on anyone because of their 'simplicity' or in prejudice to their age, for even the prophets and aposltes were uneducated, simple men!
Ephesians 18:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Yeshua Messiah;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto
your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Messiah is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Messiah, so let the wives be to their
own husbands in every thing.
It's telling wives to submit to their
own husbands. Not to the husband of Mrs. Mary Mack who's hubby is the pastor and says one thing but her own husband says another!
Paul's request for mutual submission was made to the whole church. That is to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of the new community, which was centred around rank and status. Paul took his cue from Jesus "Luke 22:25-28 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."
So the husband to whom a wife submits (voluntarily in the Greek, not because of a fixed hierarchy) is to be her servant ("as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her". Chains of authority belong to a fallen society (flesh) not to the new community.
That 'chain' you mentioned in biblically and theologically unsound. Biblically, the only submission for a wife is for her relationship to her husband as her servant, not master. Theologically your position divides the Trinity and leaves out the Holy Spirit entirely. No bible believing Christian can accept that heresy.
The Fall? Yes. Prior to the Fall there was a complimentary and equal relationship. In Christ the Fall is being undone as the re-creation of our cosmos has begun. That is the clear message right through the NT, implicit in the title 'Christ' ie Messiah. We are being redeemed from the Fall as new creations, children of God, adopted children, a community of priests.
John
NZ
Precisely, sir! To the church as a whole, not within individual family units.
Where does scripture say that when it says a wife to submit to her husband, it's talking about him being her servant??? Chain of authority are for unsaved society??? Torah is full of chain of authority! The army is full of it! 'Captains of tens, captains of hundreds, captains of thousands, captains of ten thousands!!!' And in Revelation, what do you do with this passage?
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yeshua Messiah, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel
(I believe that to be holy spirit) unto His servant John:
Wow!! What the??? God has a 'fallen society'??? God gave it to Yeshua, Yeshua gave it to the 'angel' and the angel gave it to John! Why didn't the Father just give it straight to John??? No, I don't believe in the trinity theory. Personally, I don't believe that scripture uphold that idea at all. But without derailing the thread, if you wish to ask questions on that sir, feel free to PM me!
I have to disagree with that last one! In Genesis, God says that He would make a help meet
for him!!! Eve was never told that Adam was her help meet!! In fact, this is what the NT says about it ..
1 Corinthians 7:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as
he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause
ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
I think that verse in Scripture is pretty clear that submission is mutual. And to reiterate that point, the passage also says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. This means that a husband is to be willing to give up his life for his wife's sake. That seems like submission to me.
With that said, submission looks different for the husband and for the wife. The wife is submitting to her husband in the sense that she is allowing him to be the leader of the household. This looks differently depending on the couple and their situation. The husband, in turn, is submitting to his wife in the sense that he is taking what is best for her into account which means making decisions with her counsel. (People have a tendency to see the husband's leadership as meaning that he just makes all the decisions by himself with no accountability and that the wife doesn't need to have a say in anything. This isn't true) He is also giving himself up for her in the sense that he is working to support the family financially as well.
Submission is preparing to sacrifice your life for one another? It sounds like ... sacificing one's self for another! Covenant love!
v. sub·mit·ted,
sub·mit·ting,
sub·mits
v.tr. 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.
3. To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at
propose.
4. To offer as a proposition or contention:
I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.
v.intr. 1. To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at
yield.
2. To allow oneself to be subjected to something.
Personally, I don't really see how, EXCEPT when there is a case of the husband ordering the wife to go against what God has down as clear moral issues! Eg; a husband ordering a wife to participate in inappropriate intimacy, theft, murder, etc! In those cases,
Acts 5:29b ... We ought to obey God rather than men.
If he violates torah and orders other to do so (which is outside his authority to do), then he answers directly to God for that!
Sorry, StarryEyes, you did ask for the blokes position, maybe this is why! LOL! Women's roles are far more controversial!!!
LOL!