30 Firms get Obamacare waivers

Anyway, since you guys don't want to pick one, I'll go with the oft hated France.

Affordability:
11% GDP vs 16% in US
$3600 Per Capita vs $7300 in US
under $2 for doctor's office copay and $20-25 for hospital stays vs $20 for a doctor visit and $100+ for admission.

Access: Universal healthcare for all legal residents vs 16% uninsured in the US. studies within country show increase in delay of treatment for uninsured. Unable to find overall rates for France.

quality of care:
life expectancy 81 years vs 78 in US
Infant mortality 4% vs 7% in US
3.4 doctors per 1000 people vs 2.4 in US
7.7 nurses per 1000 people vs 10.6 in US

This isn't me cherry picking data either. Every metric that I could think of I reported results for.

It is odd, [serious] that you would pick France as your example while that country is embroiled in massive riots and strikes in protest of government action to reign in the very programs you advocate. What the France example proves is not how well the welfare state works, but how it is doomed to ultimate failure. The social democratic welfare state ideal is dying right before your eyes in the heart of Europe...if you would only bother to notice.

EdwinWillers said:

No offense, but all your "metrics" you think elevate France to some sort of vaunted socialist entitlement utopia may be fine for you, but I don't much care.

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Vaulted status? no. I picked a country, picked metrics, then went looking for data. I first gave you a chance to pick the country.By many of these same metrics, france is behind other European countries. I faithfully reported even nurse to population ratios which the US came out ahead on. If you want, you can pick your own country and do a comparison. Eevn cheat if you want and look for one that we are ahead of. You kind of need the assist for your side of this argument.

EdwinWillers said:

For a nation who's retirement age is proposed to be raised up just 2 years to 62 (never mind it was 65 not that long ago) - and the citizens respond by rioting throughout the country - well you can march forth all the metrics you please about how much "better" France is than the US.

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Sounds like a second amendment solution! But yeah, if france is rioting because their leaders are trying to move the retirement age closer to ours? Yeah, they are really jealous of us I guess. We must be so much better.

EdwinWillers said:

"Affordability????" Such socialist largesse as you tout is bankrupting France, just as it is the US. That's not 'affordability' - that's abject irresponsibility.

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Reread those figures. We spend twice as much as them per capita. Even when looking purely at government spending we spend more. That right, we spend more tax dollars per capita than them and you are claiming that their largess is bankrupting them.

EdwinWillers said:

At least Giedi Prime *IS* fictional. This isn't.

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Your math seems to be...

lordbt said:

It is odd, [serious] that you would pick France as your example while that country is embroiled in massive riots and strikes in protest of government action to reign in the very programs you advocate.

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I picked a country after no one else would. I personally find it interesting that they will riot to protest their system changing. That speaks to me of great satisfaction with their system. I'm sure if the government was trying to go to our system there would be full on armed revolt.

lordbt said:

What the France example proves is not how well the welfare state works, but how it is doomed to ultimate failure. The social democratic welfare state ideal is dying right before your eyes in the heart of Europe...if you would only bother to notice.

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Seriously, half the cost per capita as the US system. Half the cost.

EdwinWillers said:

Socialism, welfarism, collectivism, entitlementiasis, whatever one chooses to call it - fails every time. Problem is, it "works" just long enough to get those who propose it into office. When things start to fall apart, as they inevitably must, they're either collecting their pensions or some new regime is in place blaming it on their opponents - or, and this is what never ceases to amaze me, they propose even MORE of the same failed policies.

But lying down kissing on the street in front of riot police to protest having to work an extra two years before retiring sooner than most other nations in the world? It's gotta be something in the wine....

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I love how once the figures start coming out and facts have to be addressed, the subject suddenly changes.

Somehow you missed the point completely.

EdwinWillers said:

^ Indeed. But then, he never offered up a point for his initial question in the first place. Still scratching my head on that one...

Seems Giedi Prime was as valid an answer as any.

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The point of that was that you can take pretty much any industrialized country in the world and they will pay less, cover more, and, in general, produce better outcomes. They have higher satisfaction with their system and their care. I don't know of any movement in another country to adopt a US style system, yet many people in the US would like to go to single payer.

My new religion does not reckognize usery of any kind. Is this current kakistocrasy playing favours to one specific religion and or corporations?

Why do the Amish and Moslem get away with abstenance of the usery practice of the federal government?

Where is that rock band beatle drummer, when I need him.

HerbieHeadley said:

My new religion does not reckognize usery of any kind. Is this current kakistocrasy playing favours to one specific religion and or corporations?

Why do the Amish and Moslem get away with abstenance of the usery practice of the federal government?

Where is that rock band beatle drummer, when I need him.

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You mean Ringo84?

EdwinWillers said:

...only France isn't paying "less," are they?

Nothing is free, and France's leadership, at least, is beginning to realize that - as are many of the other countries who've adopted the notion that they can do whatever they want with other people's money.

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France is paying $3600 per capita, the US is paying $7300 per capita. France is indeed paying less for healthcare.

I am increasingly persuaded that obama wants to redefine America from a nation of people endowed by their Creator with certain and inalienable rights into a nation of people endowed by eachother with therefore uncertain and alienable rights, and that everything he does is toward that end, including obamacare.

I believe that obama is sincere. I believe that he sincerely does not hold our Creator (that is the God of the bible) to be self-evident.

obama believes that biblical presuppositions upon which we are founded are Less Nessman-tape on the floor silly.
He believes them to be conjured up limitations, so many superstitions to be unlearned.

To consider anything that comes from other people a right, one must fundamentally redefine a right.
Such a refininition would fundamentally redefine America.

I'm not leaving the subject, I'm just keeping it in perspective.
Why obama does what obama does about healthcare is just a means to another end.
Keeping that in mind, it all makes perfect sense, to me.

It's not about healthcare, health insurance or health at all.
It's about establishing the idea that what we are entitled to comes from eachother. It's about redefining America, and this healthcare law is as big a part of that redefinition as is the balance of the entitlement culture.

EdwinWillers said:

...only France isn't paying "less," are they?

Nothing is free, and France's leadership, at least, is beginning to realize that - as are many of the other countries who've adopted the notion that they can do whatever they want with other people's money.

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They are paying less. Both the per capita expenditure of the government and the per capita expenditure of private payers is lower. By any conceivable metric, that is paying less than us.

EdwinWillers said:

France is broke.

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France's national debt is also lower than ours. France is also less broke than us.

US Gross Debt 2008 12,867.5bn 90.8% of GDP
France 79.70

List of National Debt by Country — Economics Blog

Numbers are posted right there

Harpuia said:

Yeah...

I'm convinced. This combined with the internet wiretapping and just the plain out lack of transparency in Washington is enough to make me not vote Democrat this election.

I won't vote Tea Party/Republican either because I know it will only get worse.

So what is a guy like me to do?

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Find or grow wings and fly to another planet in a distant galaxy where no humans have alternating opinions. You will need an oxygen supply.

EdwinWillers said:

{experpted for exact response}
They never cared about lower income people getting healthcare. All they care about is a nation being forced into purchasing healthcare from them.

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This statement is a bemusing assumption, stating an iconic presuppostion, which produces a personal opinion.