Requirements for Messiah

ShirChadash

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Oh dear, you guys just aint got no humour! Just stating the obvious!
I must be really slow -- the obvious? I'm just trying to understand what you're really saying.
It's obviously not a requirement for the Mashiach, from the Tanach, as far as I can see...?

Lulav, in general i think you can find what you're looking for here:

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).





HTH
 
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Heber

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I must be really slow -- the obvious? I'm just trying to understand what you're really saying.
It's obviously not a requirement for the Mashiach, from the Tanach, as far as I can see...?

Lulav, in general i think you can find what you're looking for here:

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).





HTH

It all depends where you start from. Those who see Yeshua as HaMashiach would find him spoken about in the Tanach - though you might disagree from the Jewish point of view. This is, after all, a Messianic thread where you should not be too surprised that posters take it for granted, on the whole, that Messiah has to be G_d.
 
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Desert Rose

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Oh dear, you guys just aint got no humour! Just stating the obvious!

:D i, for one, got it. You i like, you are a very funny Brit, Heber.

Lulav, I also wanted to goof around a bit on the subject , mainly because the question is toooooooo broad.

By your messianic logo i presume you believe in Yeshua.

But your word "declared" and "testing involved" was confusing. There is no such thing for believers in Yeshua who expect his second coming. You maybe mean by Judaism adherents?
If so, which ones in particular? They all disagree:D
 
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ShirChadash

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It all depends where you start from.
I start with Tanach, and go forward. Jews start with Tanach, and go forward. In light of that, I must ask you again,

where is that found in Tanach -- an actual verse which states that the Messiah who will come, must be G_d? I see no reason to consider the idea he would be, as "obvious"; the concept of a "Messiah" and especially THE Messiah, comes straight out of Judaism which does not accept any Christian texts nor teaching on the subject.
I don't find the question too broad. There are very specific requirements for the Jewish Messiah. Those specific requirements - the job description - are found in Tanach alone, and they're very clear. Why is it "too broad" to ask what the requirements are for the Jewish Messiah, considering any ideas of other requirements which come from any source other than Tanach, don't actually apply??
 
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Desert Rose

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Its too broad because the way Tanach is written is open to wide, wide- did I say wide?yes, very wide - ways of interpretation.

As multitudes of denoms in Judaism and Christianity, all claiming "Tanach only" or
"Bible Only" and yet being in bitter disagreement on many, many issues undeniably prove.

I am sure you are aware that Christainity and Judaism are in disagreement of requirements and identity for messiah. Yeshua already came, we waiting for his second coming( messianics and Christians) , and Messaiah is yet to come( judaism).
 
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Desert Rose

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Oh, sure. Its can be an entertaining and educational study, but be ready that they ALL disagree. Sages love to, figuratevely speaking,rip each others hair out on the subject.

Rambam, for one,who wasnt dumb, imho,- studied all the related Scriptures extensively and written a monumental "Laws regarding Kind Messaih". But Rambam, all due respect, was a piece of work himself, so he, naturally disagreed with much of oral tradition and preciously established opinions.This is a simple summary of his work

The Messiah and the Rambam

Me, being a Christian agree with Mr Rambam on one most vital issue , he quoted from Sanhedrin 97b, where he strongly discourages the guesswork about when Messaiah will come. While i interpret it as Second Coming, of course, he has a point.
All that fascination with prophesies and other predictions is just sick, in modern christian churches. Like Tarot card psychics, come on..( rolls eyes)
 
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Lulav

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There is no direct reference to him in the Five Books of Moses and scant mention in the books of the Prophets. The Messiah is mentioned in various places in the Talmud, particularly in the end of the tractate Sanhedrian. Our present knowledge of who and what the Messiah is can be only found in basically one source and that is the Rambam's magnum opus, the Mishnah Torah, also known as the Yad HaChazakah.
I'm interested in what was believed in the first century. What were the things they were looking for? Andrew proclaims that Yeshua was the one they had been looking for. The priests and scribes came to test him many times. There must have been some protocol back then, way before Rambam.

I am surprised that they believe that he is not spoken of in the Torah.

Then I would have to ask who do they think Moses is referring to here?

A prophet will the L-RD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou didst desire of the L-RD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the L-RD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
 
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GuardianShua

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I start with Tanach, and go forward. Jews start with Tanach, and go forward. In light of that, I must ask you again,

where is that found in Tanach -- an actual verse which states that the Messiah who will come, must be G_d? I see no reason to consider the idea he would be, as "obvious"; the concept of a "Messiah" and especially THE Messiah, comes straight out of Judaism which does not accept any Christian texts nor teaching on the subject.
I don't find the question too broad. There are very specific requirements for the Jewish Messiah. Those specific requirements - the job description - are found in Tanach alone, and they're very clear. Why is it "too broad" to ask what the requirements are for the Jewish Messiah, considering any ideas of other requirements which come from any source other than Tanach, don't actually apply??

Psalm 45 (New International Version)

Psalm 45
For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil.

1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme
as I recite my verses for the king;
my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.

2 You are the most excellent of men
and your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.

4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously
in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;
let your right hand display awesome deeds.

5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;
let the nations fall beneath your feet.

6 Your throne, O [God / god / elohiym], will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Verse 6 and 7 is about Yahshua.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Because Yahshua is an immortal being he is also called god. All of the people in the kingdom of Yahwah are called gods because they have life immortal.

Hebrews 1:8-9
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O [God / god / elohiym], will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy

The word God is the name of no one because it is a title. Besides that the translation not shown is actually "Elohiym."
 
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Desert Rose

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I'm interested in what was believed in the first century. What were the things they were looking for? Andrew proclaims that Yeshua was the one they had been looking for. The priests and scribes came to test him many times. There must have been some protocol back then, way before Rambam.
I am surprised that they believe that he is not spoken of in the Torah.
Then I would have to ask who do they think Moses is referring to here?

Based on everything we know people expected Messiah way before the first century.Even that the word itself isnt used in (what we refer to collectively as)the Bible.The concept was broad even back then,but, in essence,the consensus was that He is the King and Conqueror that will bring political and spiritual freedom to the Nation of Israel and the world. All agreed on that. Details and requirements varied and still vary. Important to note that "performing miracles" , in most interpretations are not on the list.

Thats why i brought up Rambam, he summarized all that. Religious bosses of the day could not beleive that the poor gangleader of a small bunch of young wanderers, especially considering his shameful, in their view, death, can possibly be Messiah the King. From the get go that disqualified him.

As for words of Moses, of course there were, are , and will be false messiahs long after me and you turn into dust.
Bar Kohba,Tzadok, Fevda that is mentioned in Acts 5, etc..

Also, the interesting moment - Isaiah 53.WHo is the one that it talks about ? That is what required a lot of jumping thru hoops from Judaism side to try to explain....
 
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Lulav

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Based on everything we know people expected Messiah way before the first century.Even that the word itself isnt used in (what we refer to collectively as)the Bible.The concept was broad even back then,but, in essence,the consensus was that He is the King and Conqueror that will bring political and spiritual freedom to the Nation of Israel and the world.
All agreed on that. Details and requirements varied and still vary. Important to note that "performing miracles" , in most interpretations are not on the list.[/quote] Of course, that is understood. What I am looking for is a list of requirements, genealogies, certain prophecies that should be fulfilled, etc.

Thats why i brought up Rambam, he summarized all that. Religious bosses of the day could not beleive that the poor gangleader of a small bunch of young wanderers, especially considering his shameful, in their view, death, can possibly be Messiah the King. From the get go that disqualified him.
Funny thing, the more I study this time period the more I am not convinced that he was poor as Christianity presents. I don't understand why it would seem shameful if he was leading a revolution against pagan Rome and was brought up on charges against the Empire?

As for words of Moses, of course there were, are , and will be false messiahs long after me and you turn into dust.
Bar Kohba,Tzadok, Fevda that is mentioned in Acts 5, etc..
False Messiahs? I didn't post anything about that, but about a prophet to come? :scratch: Where do you read anything about a false messiah here?

A prophet will the L-RD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou didst desire of the L-RD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the L-RD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
This, I believe is speaking of the Messiah, not a false Messiah.


Also, the interesting moment - Isaiah 53.WHo is the one that it talks about ? That is what required a lot of jumping thru hoops from Judaism side to try to explain....
Yes,I have seen that. I believe it doesn't have to be one or the other though, but both. I read the Bible, the words from HaShem to have more than one meaning. :)
 
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Desert Rose

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False Messiahs? I didn't post anything about that, but about a prophet to come?
scratch.gif
Where do you read anything about a false messiah here?
A prophet will the L-RD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou didst desire of the L-RD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the L-RD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
This, I believe is speaking of the Messiah, not a false Messiah.
Oh, dear, of course. I didnt mean you mentioned false messiahs, i meant to say- Those (and others) scriptures and the whole concept of messiah been so widely understood and interpreted and disagreed upon between religious leaders,learned scholars and people in general , that many false Messiahs have risen and many times some people were deceived into believing that they were true Ones, if for a while.

So that by itself shows us how wide interpretation of those requirement can be...

I believe it doesn't have to be one or the other though, but both. I read the Bible, the words from HaShem to have more than one meaning.
smile.gif

thats it, istn it? :) vague and open to interpretation.
You know who we should ask? Chava! She is Jew, adherent of judaism, i forgot what denom, sorry, i think she is not from chabadniks -or is she? Anyway, she is sane, smart lady. There are boys adherent of judaism here, too. Yonah is normal and very wise, others i am afraid of, they are not playing with the full deck.
 
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Desert Rose

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Funny thing, the more I study this time period the more I am not convinced that he was poor as Christianity presents. I don't understand why it would seem shameful if he was leading a revolution against pagan Rome and was brought up on charges against the Empire?

I was busy yesterday, and didnt have a chance to address that

Not poor?
Leading a revolution against pagan Rome and brought up charges against the Empire?:confused:

Who is that? I was talking about Yeshua( Jesus). I am not sure who you just described.
 
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There is one who at the time of Yeshua, understood the Messiah's work...

Luke 2:28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: 29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. 30For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31which you have prepared in the sight of all people, 32a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

Simeon saw the Messiah as the gift of salvation
Simeon also saw that the Messiah would be a revelation to the Gentiles
Simeon also saw that Yeshua would be the glory to Israel

All these things, I do not believe was isolated to just Simeon to see. I am not saying that Simeon was the common view, but that Yeshua's purpose was not unknown among the believers of His time.

34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."
 
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