Is Yeshua/Jesus necessary?

yonah_mishael

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Once again, incorrect. Leviticus 17:11 states "11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life."

Scripture overrides man's interpretation.

This is without the animal being mentioned. Hence Leviticus 17:11 is not conditional upon an animal being sacrificed.

Huh? Once again? OK. I'd work on my reading comprehension skills if I were you. I quoted the verse and explained it. Quoting the verse back to me without a better explanation doesn't win you any points.

To reiterate, the verse says that "it is the blood [not the liver, not the feet, not the head, not the heart, not the toes, but the blood] that makes atonement for one's life." That's the only part of the animal that counts in the atonement process, though the meat will be shared by the priests and the pieces are burnt in the fire. The blood is the part of the animal that had a part in the atonement concept. That is the limit of what is said in Lev 17:11. If you claim more, you're reading it into the text.
 
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visionary

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Huh? Once again? OK. I'd work on my reading comprehension skills if I were you. I quoted the verse and explained it. Quoting the verse back to me without a better explanation doesn't win you any points.

To reiterate, the verse says that "it is the blood [not the liver, not the feet, not the head, not the heart, not the toes, but the blood] that makes atonement for one's life." That's the only part of the animal that counts in the atonement process, though the meat will be shared by the priests and the pieces are burnt in the fire. The blood is the part of the animal that had a part in the atonement concept. That is the limit of what is said in Lev 17:11. If you claim more, you're reading it into the text.
It is only the blood of the sacrifice that makes it into the most holy and is sprinkled on the mercy seat.
 
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yonah_mishael

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It is only the blood of the sacrifice that makes it into the most holy and is sprinkled on the mercy seat.

I really don’t understand the connection between this and what I wrote. Would you mind explaining that for me? Maybe I’m missing something. Thanks!
 
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dodari

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Hi friends all,

I hope I haven't started a furor, not my desire at all. I'm in a learning process I guess one might say. I am an old engineer. Shapes my thinking process, the engineering logic process, I mean. In other words I'm gathering data before I build the bridge, to draw a picture as a parallel sort of. Some data is useful, some is not, the engineer must select which is which, and the bridge we design and build, finally, must stand up, ultimately. We never go at it fast, mistakes.

Being half native(Lakota) and being raised on a reservation in the north country, under the all heavy hand of the Jesuits and Franciscan sisters, and seeing my Jewish Mom get slurred because she was Jewish, and being treated as "special"(not a good "special" either) and hearing things like: "Well he's half Jew" in my youth left a rather indelible negative impression of Christianity on me. Later in life my exposure to things of the "church" left me with an ambivalent view of things. Polytheism comes to mind as does a certain callous lawlessness that makes me think that certain people in the "church", be it catholic or protestant, must think that G-d is either blind or some d---ed fool that can't find his butt with both hands. Also, when they would find out I was Jewish they would act like: "Oh boy we got a hot one here". I loathe "attack Christianity" to coin a term. Like dogs in heat.

Today, in the evening, commences Shabbat, it is Sukkot. Soon, this afternoon, my wife and I will go up to town where our traditional Conservative Shul is and be involved in prepping with Rabbi for the kids's special Sukkah thing tonight and Erev Shabbat. We will be out of pocket probably until Sunday day, maybe even later over the week end break. There is a special Orthodox Sukkathon(or what ever the right word is) in a town about 100 miles north of where we are and last year it was a joy, so we're planning to go again, of course. We usually leave the computers off during Shabbat anyway. That Rabbi is my friend also. He always shares something, usually, from the Hebrew Scriptures and language that normally one doesn't see and it's interesting.

I look at the "church" and I have to wonder if there is anything left in the Bible that the "church" folks find, specifically, morally binding. What I perceive, just my own impression, is something approaching cavalier, a circus, a show and tell? Just my impression, I don't say it is such.

Again, I'm merely an old engineer gathering data for my project.

We'll be offline now, pretty much.

I wish you all wholeness and Shalom,

Ari
 
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visionary

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I really don’t understand the connection between this and what I wrote. Would you mind explaining that for me? Maybe I’m missing something. Thanks!
I know, I saw that it was missing from your explanation and I thought this little tidbit of info which I believe is incredibly important. as it is the only part of the sacrifice that makes it into the most Holy.. should be included..
 
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yedida

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It's that connection that gives you a perspective that doesn't exist in the Torah, Ari. In the Torah, you will not find the idea that atonement cannot be achieved without blood. That idea has been added by the book of Hebrews. It doesn't show up in Lev 17, nor does it show up anywhere else in the Torah. It certainly doesn't show up in the prophets, where they say clearly that God is not pleased with sacrifices but with repentance. If there's no need for blood according to the Torah, where did that need come from in the New Testament? Don't you think it interesting at least?
Lev. 17:11 does say blood/atonement "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, an I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." NKJV
The Stone Tanach says, "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upo the Altar to provide atonemment for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul."
Lev. 17:1-12, "Because life is dependent upon blood, God designated blood as the medium that goes upon the Altar for atonement, as if to say, "Let one life be offered to atone for another." Consequently, it is not appropriate for blood to be eaten." (Rashi; Sifra).
If blood is not necessary, why did Yeshua say in Mark 14:24 "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many..."?
I think the blood of Yeshua is necessary.
Look at the rite of purification in the Tanach and corelate the living water and blood to the water and blood that poured out of His side on Golgotha. Not only did His blood atone for us, it also (with the living water) purified us. Baruch Hashem!!
 
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yonah_mishael

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Lev. 17:11 does say blood/atonement "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, an I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." NKJV
The Stone Tanach says, "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upo the Altar to provide atonemment for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul."
Lev. 17:1-12, "Because life is dependent upon blood, God designated blood as the medium that goes upon the Altar for atonement, as if to say, "Let one life be offered to atone for another." Consequently, it is not appropriate for blood to be eaten." (Rashi; Sifra).
If blood is not necessary, why did Yeshua say in Mark 14:24 "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many..."?
I think the blood of Yeshua is necessary.
Look at the rite of purification in the Tanach and corelate the living water and blood to the water and blood that poured out of His side on Golgotha. Not only did His blood atone for us, it also (with the living water) purified us. Baruch Hashem!!

Yedida,

The NT makes the claim that blood is necessary. I wasn't talking about NT perspective. I was talking about the Tanakh.

Thanks,
Yonah
 
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ShirChadash

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Lev 7:11 in context is very clear, and that is with regard to the eating of blood -- this is not teaching us that atonement never comes by any other means but blood; it is teaching us rather that blood is only for use upon the altar when bringing a sacrifice for atonement.

10. And any man of the House of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My attention upon the soul who eats the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people. י. וְאִישׁ אִישׁ מִבֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וּמִן הַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכָם אֲשֶׁר יֹאכַל כָּל דָּם וְנָתַתִּי פָנַי בַּנֶּפֶשׁ הָאֹכֶלֶת אֶת הַדָּם וְהִכְרַתִּי אֹתָהּ מִקֶּרֶב עַמָּהּ: 11. For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have therefore given it to you [to be placed] upon the altar, to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul. יא. כִּי נֶפֶשׁ הַבָּשָׂר בַּדָּם הִוא וַאֲנִי נְתַתִּיו לָכֶם עַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ לְכַפֵּר עַל נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם כִּי הַדָּם הוּא בַּנֶּפֶשׁ יְכַפֵּר: 12. Therefore, I said to the children of Israel: None of you shall eat blood, and the stranger who sojourns among you shall not eat blood. יב. עַל כֵּן אָמַרְתִּי לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל כָּל נֶפֶשׁ מִכֶּם לֹא תֹאכַל דָּם וְהַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכְכֶם לֹא יֹאכַל דָּם: 13. And any man of the children of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who traps a quarry of a wild animal or bird that may be eaten, and sheds its blood, he shall cover it [the blood] with dust. יג. וְאִישׁ אִישׁ מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וּמִן הַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכָם אֲשֶׁר יָצוּד צֵיד חַיָּה אוֹ עוֹף אֲשֶׁר יֵאָכֵל וְשָׁפַךְ אֶת דָּמוֹ וְכִסָּהוּ בֶּעָפָר: 14. For [regarding] the soul of all flesh its blood is in its soul, and I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of any flesh is its blood all who eat it shall be cut off. יד. כִּי נֶפֶשׁ כָּל בָּשָׂר דָּמוֹ בְנַפְשׁוֹ הוּא וָאֹמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל דַּם כָּל בָּשָׂר לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ כִּי נֶפֶשׁ כָּל בָּשָׂר דָּמוֹ הִוא כָּל אֹכְלָיו יִכָּרֵת:
 
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yedida

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Shalom guys,
In all the passages that speak of atonement, blood is included. Therefore, it stands to reason that blood is necessary. If it were not, Yeshua could have simply lain down and fallen asleep, He still could have arisen in the proscribed 3 days and 3 nights....

Our God is, above all, merciful. Would He have extracted something extra something not even needed from His Son on our behalf? As far as we can tell from scripture, He hasn't. Therefore, since He is a God of patterns and consistency, I don't see why He would change in this instance. The blood was necessary.
(I'll continue to look for further references over the next few days.)
 
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ShirChadash

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Shalom guys,
In all the passages that speak of atonement, blood is included.

Exodus 30

verse 12. "When you take the sum of the children of Israel according to their numbers, let each one give to the Lord an atonement for his soul when they are counted; then there will be no plague among them when they are counted. יב. כִּי תִשָּׂא אֶת רֹאשׁ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְקֻדֵיהֶם וְנָתְנוּ אִישׁ כֹּפֶר נַפְשׁוֹ לַי־הֹוָ־ה בִּפְקֹד אֹתָם וְלֹא יִהְיֶה בָהֶם נֶגֶף בִּפְקֹד אֹתָם: verse 13. This they shall give, everyone who goes through the counting: half a shekel according to the holy shekel. Twenty gerahs equal one shekel; half of [such] a shekel shall be an offering to the Lord. יג. זֶה יִתְּנוּ כָּל הָעֹבֵר עַל הַפְּקֻדִים מַחֲצִית הַשֶּׁקֶל בְּשֶׁקֶל הַקֹּדֶשׁ עֶשְׂרִים גֵּרָה הַשֶּׁקֶל מַחֲצִית הַשֶּׁקֶל תְּרוּמָה לַי־הֹוָ־ה: verse 14. Everyone who goes through the counting, from the age of twenty and upward, shall give an offering to the Lord. יד. כֹּל הָעֹבֵר עַל הַפְּקֻדִים מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמָעְלָה יִתֵּן תְּרוּמַת יְ־הֹוָ־ה: verse 15. The rich shall give no more, and the poor shall give no less than half a shekel, with which to give the offering to the Lord, to atone for your souls. טו. הֶעָשִׁיר לֹא יַרְבֶּה וְהַדַּל לֹא יַמְעִיט מִמַּחֲצִית הַשָּׁקֶל לָתֵת אֶת תְּרוּמַת יְ־הֹוָ־ה לְכַפֵּר עַל נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם: verse 16. You shall take the silver of the atonements from the children of Israel and use it for the work of the Tent of Meeting; it shall be a remembrance for the children of Israel before the Lord, to atone for your souls." טז. וְלָקַחְתָּ אֶת כֶּסֶף הַכִּפֻּרִים מֵאֵת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וְנָתַתָּ אֹתוֹ עַל עֲבֹדַת אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד וְהָיָה לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לְזִכָּרוֹן לִפְנֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה לְכַפֵּר עַל נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם:

Christian versions:

NET Bible
30:1120 The Lord spoke to Moses:21 30:12 “When you take a census22 of the Israelites according to their number,23 then each man is to pay a ransom24 for his life to the Lord when you number them,25 so that there will be no plague among them when you number them. 30:13 Everyone who crosses over to those who are numbered26 is to pay this: a half shekel27 according to the shekel of the sanctuary28 (a shekel weighs twenty gerahs). The half shekel is to be an offering29 to the Lord. 30:14 Everyone who crosses over to those numbered, from twenty years old and up, is to pay an offering to the Lord. 30:15 The rich are not to increase it,30 and the poor are not to pay less than the half shekel when giving31 the offering of the Lord, to make atonement32 for your lives. 30:16 You are to receive the atonement money33 from the Israelites and give it for the service34 of the tent of meeting. It will be a memorial35 for the Israelites before the Lord, to make atonement36 for your lives.”

NIV
11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them. 13 Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel, [b] according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the LORD. 14 All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the LORD. 15 The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the LORD to atone for your lives. 16 Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD, making atonement for your lives."

KJV
11And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 12When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
14Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
15The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
 
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ShirChadash

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Shalom guys,
In all the passages that speak of atonement, blood is included.

Leviticus 5

verse 11. But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall not put oil over it, nor shall he place frankincense upon it, for it is a sin offering. יא. וְאִם לֹא תַשִּׂיג יָדוֹ לִשְׁתֵּי תֹרִים אוֹ לִשְׁנֵי בְנֵי יוֹנָה וְהֵבִיא אֶת קָרְבָּנוֹ אֲשֶׁר חָטָא עֲשִׂירִת הָאֵפָה סֹלֶת לְחַטָּאת לֹא יָשִׂים עָלֶיהָ שֶׁמֶן וְלֹא יִתֵּן עָלֶיהָ לְבֹנָה כִּי חַטָּאת הִיא: verse 12. He shall bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall scoop out a fistful as its reminder, and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires of the Lord. It is a sin offering. יב. וֶהֱבִיאָהּ אֶל הַכֹּהֵן וְקָמַץ הַכֹּהֵן מִמֶּנָּה מְלוֹא קֻמְצוֹ אֶת אַזְכָּרָתָהּ וְהִקְטִיר הַמִּזְבֵּחָה עַל אִשֵּׁי יְ־הֹוָ־ה חַטָּאת הִוא: verse 13. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin that he committed in any one of these [cases], and he shall be forgiven. And it shall belong to the kohen like the meal offering. יג. וְכִפֶּר עָלָיו הַכֹּהֵן עַל חַטָּאתוֹ אֲשֶׁר חָטָא מֵאַחַת מֵאֵלֶּה וְנִסְלַח לוֹ וְהָיְתָה לַכֹּהֵן כַּמִּנְחָה:

Numbers 17

Verse 9. The Lord spoke to Moses saying: ט. וַיְדַבֵּר יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר: Verse 10. Stand aside from this congregation, and I shall consume them in an instant." They fell on their faces. י. הֵרֹמּוּ מִתּוֹךְ הָעֵדָה הַזֹּאת וַאֲכַלֶּה אֹתָם כְּרָגַע וַיִּפְּלוּ עַל פְּנֵיהֶם: Verse 11. Moses said to Aaron, "Take the censer and put fire from the altar top into it. Then take it quickly to the congregation and atone for them, for wrath has gone forth from the Lord, and the plague has begun." יא. וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל אַהֲרֹן קַח אֶת הַמַּחְתָּה וְתֶן עָלֶיהָ אֵשׁ מֵעַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ וְשִׂים קְטֹרֶת וְהוֹלֵךְ מְהֵרָה אֶל הָעֵדָה וְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיהֶם כִּי יָצָא הַקֶּצֶף מִלִּפְנֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה הֵחֵל הַנָּגֶף: Verse 12. Aaron took [it], just as Moses had said, and he ran into the midst of the assembly, and behold, the plague had begun among the people. He placed the incense on it and atoned for the people. יב. וַיִּקַּח אַהֲרֹן כַּאֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר מֹשֶׁה וַיָּרָץ אֶל תּוֹךְ הַקָּהָל וְהִנֵּה הֵחֵל הַנֶּגֶף בָּעָם וַיִּתֵּן אֶת הַקְּטֹרֶת וַיְכַפֵּר עַל הָעָם: Verse 13. He stood between the dead and the living, and the plague ceased. יג. וַיַּעֲמֹד בֵּין הַמֵּתִים וּבֵין הַחַיִּים וַתֵּעָצַר הַמַּגֵּפָה:


Numbers 30

50. We therefore wish to bring an offering for the Lord. Any man who found a gold article, be it an anklet, a bracelet, a ring, an earring, or a body ornament, to atone for our souls before the Lord. נ. וַנַּקְרֵב אֶת קָרְבַּן יְ־הֹוָ־ה אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר מָצָא כְלִי זָהָב אֶצְעָדָה וְצָמִיד טַבַּעַת עָגִיל וְכוּמָז לְכַפֵּר עַל נַפְשֹׁתֵינוּ לִפְנֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה: 51. Moses and Eleazar the kohen took all the gold articles from them. נא. וַיִּקַּח מֹשֶׁה וְאֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן אֶת הַזָּהָב מֵאִתָּם כֹּל כְּלִי מַעֲשֶׂה: 52. The total of the gift of gold which they dedicated to the Lord [amounted to] sixteen thousand, seven hundred and fifty shekels; this was from the commanders of the thousands and the commanders of the hundreds. נב. וַיְהִי כָּל זְהַב הַתְּרוּמָה אֲשֶׁר הֵרִימוּ לַי־הֹוָ־ה שִׁשָּׁה עָשָׂר אֶלֶף שְׁבַע מֵאוֹת וַחֲמִשִּׁים שָׁקֶל מֵאֵת שָׂרֵי הָאֲלָפִים וּמֵאֵת שָׂרֵי הַמֵּאוֹת: 53. The soldiers had seized spoils for themselves. נג. אַנְשֵׁי הַצָּבָא בָּזְזוּ אִישׁ לוֹ: 54. Moses and Eleazar the kohen took the gold from the commanders of the thousands and hundreds and brought it to the Tent of Meeting, as a remembrance for the children of Israel before the Lord. נד. וַיִּקַּח מֹשֶׁה וְאֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן אֶת הַזָּהָב מֵאֵת שָׂרֵי הָאֲלָפִים וְהַמֵּאוֹת וַיָּבִאוּ אֹתוֹ אֶל אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד זִכָּרוֹן לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְנֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה:
 
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yedida

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ShirChadash,
OK, you got me on that one!! I should not have made such a blanket statement. (Face hangs red....)
But I do believe that this is a different ransoming as it is only speaking of the firstborn among the Isrealites, not EVERYone, nor just ANYone. The other passages that I had remarked on, those speaking of making atonement for wrongs done, DO require blood and they are for everyone and anyone wishing or needing atonement. So my question still stands.
 
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ShirChadash

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Hello, Yadida

Atonement is atonement. And blood is not remotely required for all atonement -- it is required for *sacrifice*, one means of atonement which covers specific sins, and almost without exception they are unintentional sins.

How do you account for the fact that the same atonement in Lev 5 is attained for bringing an ephah of flour as the sin offering, as is attained for bringing blood? That passage answers your assertion of, "But I do believe that this is a different ransoming as it is only speaking of the firstborn among the Isrealites, not EVERYone, nor just ANYone."

Leviticus 5

verse 11. But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering.
verse 12. He shall bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall scoop out a fistful as its reminder, and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires of the Lord. It is a sin offering.
verse 13. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin that he committed in any one of these [cases], and he shall be forgiven. And it shall belong to the kohen like the meal offering.


Also, how do you account for the fact that in the passage I quoted you from Numbers 17, atonement is attained through the use of incense?

Numbers 17
Verse 11. Moses said to Aaron, "Take the censer and put fire from the altar top into it. Then take it quickly to the congregation and atone for them, for wrath has gone forth from the Lord, and the plague has begun."
Verse 12. Aaron took [it], just as Moses had said, and he ran into the midst of the assembly, and behold, the plague had begun among the people. He placed the incense on it and atoned for the people.
Verse 13. He stood between the dead and the living, and the plague ceased. יג. וַיַּעֲמֹד בֵּין הַמֵּתִים וּבֵין הַחַיִּים וַתֵּעָצַר הַמַּגֵּפָה:
And in Numbers 30, gold finery/jewelry is brought "to atone for our souls before the Lord"?

Numbers 30

50. We therefore wish to bring an offering for the Lord. Any man who found a gold article, be it an anklet, a bracelet, a ring, an earring, or a body ornament, to atone for our souls before the Lord.
Many more passages also negate the notion that blood is required for atonement and there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, but I chose to just offer a few from the Torah.

Here's one:

Isaiah 27
verse 6. Those who came, whom Jacob caused to take root, Israel flourished and blossomed and they filled the face of the world with fruitage. ו. verse 7. Like the smiting who smote him did He smite him: like the slaying of his slain ones, was he slain? ז. verse 8. In that measure, when they sent them out, it strove with it; He spoke with His harsh wind on the day of the east wind. ח. verse 9. Therefore, with this shall Jacob's iniquity be atoned for, and this is all the fruit of removing his sin; by making all the altar stones like crushed chalkstones; asherim and sun-images shall not rise.
 
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ShirChadash

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Yadida,
I also find it very interesting that your quote of Lev. 17:11 states "for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

And that seems to be a very important phrase, to Christians, from that passage.

Yet Exodus 30:15 also states that it was the monetary gift offering to the Lord that makes atonement for the soul.

Numbers 30:50 also uses the phrase "to atone for our souls before the Lord", referring to the offerings of gold.

Do you not agree that these passages I have provided show that there have always been other means of atonement commanded, demanded and accepted by HaShem?

It seems clear to me that animal sacrifice was nothing like a blanket means of atonement required for every sin, especially taking into account that nearly every animal sacrifice for sin covered unintentional sins, according to the text itself. Do you disagree?
 
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yedida

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Dear ShirChadash,
You hit the nail on the head!!! All of the sacrifices concerning sin in Lev. was for unintentional transgression. There actually was no atonement for wilfull disobedience UNTIL Yeshua.
Now, whether or not the one who committed the intentional sin would pay with his/her life, or be removed from the assembly - one thing was for sure, they could not come before the Lord at the tabernacle/temple in that state of sin so their relationship to the God of Israel was pretty much ended.
Praise Hashem the blood washes away the intentional sin!!
 
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ShirChadash

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Dear ShirChadash,
You hit the nail on the head!!! All of the sacrifices concerning sin in Lev. was for unintentional transgression. There actually was no atonement for wilfull disobedience UNTIL Yeshua.
I think you're very wrong there, but I have limited time at the moment and can't ask you more about this just now.
Now, whether or not the one who committed the intentional sin would pay with his/her life, or be removed from the assembly - one thing was for sure, they could not come before the Lord at the tabernacle/temple in that state of sin so their relationship to the God of Israel was pretty much ended.
Praise Hashem the blood washes away the intentional sin!!
Again, limited time but what about David -- a man who sinned intentionally, repented and was told by Natan that G-d had already forgiven him as of that moment of confession, and never was told to bring a sacrifice for his intentional sin -- and David, because of his confession and repentance, returned to right relationship with HaShem, didn't he? By your comments here, one would have to conclude that there was no way David, or anyone, could return to right relationship with HaShem if they committed unintentional sin, but that's not what Scripture tells us, is it?

Other than that, one quick question.
Where in Torah do you find any verse indicating that any sacrifice covered sins committed after the sacrifice was offered?

Thanks and shalom
 
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yedida

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Shir Chadash,
In your msg#37, your last question has me puzzled (that's not really too hard to do as of late...). I don't fully understand it.
Regarding the rest, I'm open to discussion (not debate). I'm only 5 years in the MJ/MG lean and there is still alot of churchianity floating around in the ol' brain (not all of it bad, just as not all of Judaism is good). I had a really fine fellowship early on, but since I've changed resident states, I'm having some issues with the shul that is nearby right now. I just don't feel completely comfortable there.
I can't say that I'll be swayed, but I'm willing to listen and search the scriptures to see what's what cos I must admit you broght up a very valid point. I, myself have wondered, not about David, but about Solomon. I guess I never worried about David so much, since the words "David...forgiven" were there and I just accepted it????
 
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Marie Lynn

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Dear ShirChadash,
You hit the nail on the head!!! All of the sacrifices concerning sin in Lev. was for unintentional transgression. There actually was no atonement for wilfull disobedience UNTIL Yeshua.
Now, whether or not the one who committed the intentional sin would pay with his/her life, or be removed from the assembly - one thing was for sure, they could not come before the Lord at the tabernacle/temple in that state of sin so their relationship to the God of Israel was pretty much ended.
Praise Hashem the blood washes away the intentional sin!!

Yedida,
Is there any place in the Torah where you can show me that Hashem requires human blood to wash away intentional sin?
 
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yedida

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To ShirChadash,
No, I cannot. That is why sin sacrifices had to keep being made. The worshipper was only in right standing till the next oopsy.
Also to ShirChadash: The statement from Tractate Avodah Zara, could that possibly be directed toward the RCC and maybe the Orthodox Greek Church? Even today, the big wigs walk about with their high hats, fancy over-clothing, swinging incense canisters, with the confessional and absolutions mimicking the Levitical sacrificial system, etc?

To Maire Lynn: no I cannot. I'm just asking questions, and have only what I've been taught, and have read to lean on.

I'm willing to listen and learn and readjust if necessary. I'm not debating, I'm seeking against what I have learned. I'm not positive it's right, but I'm not yet convinced that it's wrong. I agree, there are passages that are a little wiggly. :o)
 
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