Rural Tennessee Fire Sparks Conservative Ideological Debate

Belk

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I think people need to look at this paragraph again.



If it was simply a matter of the fire dept needing money by way of the $75 fee, then it’s pretty clear that this guy offered to pay it and more. And it’s also clear that the fire dept managed to find enough cash to show up at the guys house to protect neighbours etc.

If he wanted the fire put out and still refused to pay then I wouldn’t think there’d be as big an issue. Since he offered them the $75, their refusal to fight the fire ceased to be a matter of money and became a matter of blackmail. The fire dept isn’t an insurance Co – it’s a service. If they require $75 and he offered to pay $75 then it’s problem solved and go fight the damn fire.

Given this happened in the US, I hope he lawyers up and sues the city.

The guy offering to pay and the department being able to collect are quite frequently a long ways apart. Especially since they are not a private company and so they are unable to simply bill an individual. There are likely very strict measures on how they are able to collect money.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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The guy offering to pay and the department being able to collect are quite frequently a long ways apart. Especially since they are not a private company and so they are unable to simply bill an individual. There are likely very strict measures on how they are able to collect money.

Fair point, but if it really came down to it take the $75 as you're rolling out the hoses in front of his house.
 
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CyberPaladin

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If it was simply a matter of the fire dept needing money by way of the $75 fee, then it’s pretty clear that this guy offered to pay it and more. And it’s also clear that the fire dept managed to find enough cash to show up at the guys house to protect neighbours etc.

If he wanted the fire put out and still refused to pay then I wouldn’t think there’d be as big an issue. Since he offered them the $75, their refusal to fight the fire ceased to be a matter of money and became a matter of blackmail. The fire dept isn’t an insurance Co – it’s a service. If they require $75 and he offered to pay $75 then it’s problem solved and go fight the damn fire.

Given this happened in the US, I hope he lawyers up and sues the city.

I see two problems with your logic one anything the owner agreed to pay at time wouldn't be legaly binding even a hack laweyer could easily prove the owner was under duress which would void the agreement. The second problem is if he sues the city the guy will lose and probably endup having to pay the town's court cost to boot. There is no law at the federal level that gurantees fire protection and at the state level from what I have been reading they only require the county to provide to services of weekly garabage pickup and police protection. So in other words this town's fire dept had no legal obligation to help them put out the fire since they were located outside of the city's limits and didn't pay the fee.
 
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Ringo84

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No, they should watch someones house burn down because they where specifically told not to fight the fire. Why where they told that? I not sure but I have some hypothesis. Others on here have talked about the issue of funding. How if no one pays the fee then they are working for free. Lets talk about the issue of financial jurisdiction. No, they should watch someones house burn down because they where specifically told not to fight the fire. Why where they told that? I not sure but I have some hypothesis. Others on here have talked about the issue of funding. How if no one pays the fee then they are working for free. Lets talk about the issue of financial jurisdiction.

"Just following orders"

That's right the one of the departmenrs puts the fires out for free, is so broke because of it they're rummaging for change just so that they can put gas in the tank.

There are other ways to fund a fire department than to charge a fee for services.

This fee is the only way these firefighters are paid to fight fires in that county, yes.

Then I suggest they find another way of paying firefighters.

If that community want's a fire service maybe they should pay for one.

Or maybe the city should expect help from neighboring communities or build their own fire department.
Ringo
 
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KIYX

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I think people need to look at this paragraph again.



If it was simply a matter of the fire dept needing money by way of the $75 fee, then it’s pretty clear that this guy offered to pay it and more. And it’s also clear that the fire dept managed to find enough cash to show up at the guys house to protect neighbours etc.

You mean the neighbors how paid....

Imagine how long such a service would last if they allowed people who didn't pay to pay only when they needed it.

How long do you think your insurance company would keep you as a customer if you only paid when you needed their service?
 
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KIYX

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There are other ways to fund a fire department than to charge a fee for services.
Yes and they were voted down.


Then I suggest they find another way of paying firefighters.
Why? It's working quite well.
 
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KIYX

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Only if your not the one who lost your home. This kind of thing is illegal in New Zealand. I'm glad I live in a 'socialist State.'

You mean your state where firemen are paid by taxes? These people turned that down and this man refused the alternative.

Somehow that's not his fault apparently.
 
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kiwimac

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If there is a fire service with the training to put out fires and they let a paltry $75.00 stop them doing their job then they should be fired / replaced /sued until they lose their livings and houses. After all that's what they allowed to happen here.
 
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Schneiderman

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When a fire department tells its firefighters to stand around and watch someone's house burn down, they apparently need to be told how to run things.

If you ran a business would you repeatedly provide services to people who didn't pay?

No, because it's the bloody right thing for them to do: help out a nearby community that doesn't have fire service!
Ringo

THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS TO PAY DULY FOR SERVICES THAT YOU WANT RENDERED!

I think people need to look at this paragraph again.



If it was simply a matter of the fire dept needing money by way of the $75 fee, then it’s pretty clear that this guy offered to pay it and more. And it’s also clear that the fire dept managed to find enough cash to show up at the guys house to protect neighbours etc.

If he wanted the fire put out and still refused to pay then I wouldn’t think there’d be as big an issue. Since he offered them the $75, their refusal to fight the fire ceased to be a matter of money and became a matter of blackmail. The fire dept isn’t an insurance Co – it’s a service. If they require $75 and he offered to pay $75 then it’s problem solved and go fight the damn fire.

Given this happened in the US, I hope he lawyers up and sues the city.

You can't buy insurance after you wreck your car and expect them to pay for it. The fee is to secure eligibility for fire service before fires occur. You can't go for years without paying the fee, then have a fire, offer to pay one year's worth of the fee, and expect a service to be rendered that you were supposed to pay for BEFORE.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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If there is a fire service with the training to put out fires and they let a paltry $75.00 stop them doing their job then they should be fired / replaced /sued until they lose their livings and houses. After all that's what they allowed to happen here.
Welcome to the United States, where even civil servants are capitalists.
 
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Ringo84

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THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS TO PAY DULY FOR SERVICES THAT YOU WANT RENDERED!


The right thing is not to charge fees for vital services.

If you ran a business would you repeatedly provide services to people who didn't pay?

I wouldn't run a fire department as a business but as a valid part of local government.

Yes and they were voted down.

Tough. Figure out something else.

Why? It's working quite well.

Not when firefighters watch people's houses burn down. That's the definition of incompetence.
Ringo
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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If you ran a business would you repeatedly provide services to people who didn't pay?.

No. But a fire department isn't a business.

You can't buy insurance after you wreck your car and expect them to pay for it.

Agreed. But a fire department isn't an insurance company either.

The fee is to secure eligibility for fire service before fires occur. You can't go for years without paying the fee, then have a fire, offer to pay one year's worth of the fee, and expect a service to be rendered that you were supposed to pay for BEFORE.

If he’d decided to pay his renewal 2 days before the fire there wouldn’t be a problem. In fact – the $75 isn’t even the problem, since the department turned up anyway. They simply refused to fight the fire because they didn’t want this guy setting a precedent and proving that this is a stupid way to fund a fire department.
 
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Schneiderman

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[/U][/B]

The right thing is not to charge fees for vital services.

Taxes are fees, fees are taxes. How are "vital services" to be rendered without fees? Are you volunteering to personally fund every vital service rendered to every individual in this nation?

I wouldn't run a fire department as a business but as a valid part of local government.

That wasn't the question.

Tough. Figure out something else.

All Hail to our Glorious Dictator, who sets policy throughout the land as He sees fit!

Not when firefighters watch people's houses burn down. That's the definition of incompetence.
Ringo

They did their job in accordance to their policy. They violated the policy the first time they put this guy's fire out. They did not make the same mistake twice.

All we have here is you insulting people who did their job because you don't like what their job is.

No. But a fire department isn't a business.

The point is, it's illogical to claim that someone has failed to do their job when there was no job for them to do. It wasn't the job of these firefighters to put out the man's fire. He did not pay the fee, therefore he is ineligible to receive fire service. It is inconsistent to claim that failing to render service to someone who hasn't paid for it is "incompetence".

Agreed. But a fire department isn't an insurance company either.

They accomplish nearly the same thing in this case. You pay now for a service later. With the fire department, the service is fire extinguishing. With a traditional insurance company, it's a payout. In either case, you can't experience your emergency or injury first, then buy the insurance or service later and expect it to cover what has already occurred.

If he’d decided to pay his renewal 2 days before the fire there wouldn’t be a problem.

Yep. He should have thought of that.

In fact – the $75 isn’t even the problem, since the department turned up anyway. They simply refused to fight the fire because they didn’t want this guy setting a precedent and proving that this is a stupid way to fund a fire department.

Yeah. And I wouldn't render a service to someone who refused to pay duly either, whether in the capacity of a private business or contractor or a public servant, unless policy required me to- as in the case of a medical expert and someone who requires emergency lifesaving treatment.

The $75 fee is not in place to cover the cost of fighting the fire. Fighting a fire costs WAY MORE than $75. The fee is in place to SECURE ELIGIBILITY. If you fail to pay properly, you are INELIGIBLE. What is so hard to understand about this?
 
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kiwimac

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I find this libertarian ethos about firefighting simply so nauseating that I am now leaving this thread and the idiocy of a political system that sees essential services as some kind of sodding insurance policy.
 
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Ringo84

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Taxes are fees, fees are taxes. How are "vital services" to be rendered without fees? Are you volunteering to personally fund every vital service rendered to every individual in this nation?

If it's a choice between higher taxes or service fees, the answer is clear.

One guarantees fire service. The other guarantees that if you miss a payment for whatever reason, the fire department will watch your house burn down.

That wasn't the question.

That's my answer.

All Hail to our Glorious Dictator, who sets policy throughout the land as He sees fit!

When a fire department is watching someone's house burn down, something isn't working.

They did their job in accordance to their policy. They violated the policy the first time they put this guy's fire out.

If they had done their job, Cranick and his family would still have a house.
Ringo
 
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Schneiderman

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I find this libertarian ethos about firefighting simply so nauseating that I am now leaving this thread and the idiocy of a political system that sees essential services as some kind of sodding insurance policy.

Yeah, it makes much more sense to reward people for greedily refusing to comply with reasonable charges for service...

Why should we have to pay for anything at all? It is a firefighters job to fight fires! Nobody should have to pay! And it is a farmer's job to grow food, and a carpenter's job to build furniture. Food and furniture should be free! We all need something to eat and somewhere to sit!

It is a taxi cab driver's job to drive a taxi cab. Taxi cabs should be free! It is a yacht maker's job to make yachts. Yachts should be free!
 
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Schneiderman

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If it's a choice between higher taxes or service fees, the answer is clear.

To you, but for some reason a sizable number of people disagree with you. Guess that doesn't matter to our Glorious Dictator!

One guarantees fire service. The other guarantees that if you miss a payment for whatever reason, the fire department will watch your house burn down.

Or at least, if you REFUSE TO PAY UNTIL YOU SUDDENLY REQUIRE SERVICE.

That's my answer.

Maybe I should try that line if I get a question wrong on one of my midterms.

When a fire department is watching someone's house burn down, something isn't working.

What, exactly? The firefighters had absolutely no obligation to render service to this man and put out that fire.

If they had done their job, Cranick and his family would still have a house.
Ringo

They did their job, by not providing a service to someone who is ineligible for it. If Cranick had fulfilled HIS obligations, the firefighters would have rendered fire service (this does not however guarantee that he would still have a house...).
 
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Ringo84

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To you, but for some reason a sizable number of people disagree with you. Guess that doesn't matter to our Glorious Dictator!

Some people are irrationally anti-tax.

Who is this "Glorious Dictator" of which you speak?

Or at least, if you REFUSE TO PAY UNTIL YOU SUDDENLY REQUIRE SERVICE.

Fire service should be provided regardless of fees.

What, exactly? The firefighters had absolutely no obligation to render service to this man and put out that fire.

Why not? They're firefighters. His house was on fire.

They did their job

No...if they had done their job, the Cranicks wouldn't be without a home.

If the taxpayers in Obion had done their job, there wouldn't be any kind of pay fire service, and everyone could rest assured that if their house is on fire, they will be protected by a fire service that doesn't quibble over arbitrary fees.
Ringo
 
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a post by Alan Smithee
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Their job is to provide fire service for the City, not the surrounding countryside. The City has decided to offer service to those in surrounding areas that subscribe. The firemen were doing their job and as others have pointed out would likely have been in trouble for misuse of city resources.

With all the people making nasty comments about the fire department expect teh city to take appropriate action.

Unfortunatly that action is likely to be no longer offerning any services to surrounding areas.

I'm with the city and the fire department on this. The county residents have made a decision not to have their own fire service but there is a very resonably priced* alternative plan for county residents to secure such service. If you don't want to push the county to put together a paid or volunteer fire department and you don't want to pay for the city service, then I say tough.

* Seriously, $75/year? You can't get decent car insurance for that price these days.
 
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