The Rapture

AMEN Jephunneh,
It will all take place quicker than we can blink our eyes. One thing that I notice is missing here, and that is the word "gathered". Those that hold a post-trib view insert this word, but it is not found in the actual rapture texts. It is therefore an assumption, and I believe it is a false and very dangerous one as well, because it is causing many who believe it to not be ready for the Bridegroom, who will come very unexpectedly for His bride. Wasn't it the Jews who were always in search of signs?? Hmmmmm? They are also the ones who are waiting on the first coming of Messiah, while the Gentile believers are waiting for His second coming. Hmmmmmm? The Jews ask for signs, while the Gentiles ask wisdom. I wonder which will come first, the wisdom or the signs?? Inquiring minds want to know. But Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The Jews will get their sign, but they will also get "Jacob's trouble". Folks, the best policy to keep, is to be ready always, and that includes now. Cheers!!!

Originally posted by Jephunneh
There are two main passages in scripture which speak directly of the Rapture.

1 Corinthians 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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Where in this passage does it say Christians will be raptured (caught up in the air)?

All I read is that those living will be changed.

Originally posted by Jephunneh
2. Adding words to the text of the word of God.

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Yup.

-A

Originally posted by Jephunneh
To understand the Rapture, one must read the Bible and believe what it says

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To understand the Rapture, one must read and believe Darby.

Originally posted by Jephunneh
...........Any church or any church leader can twist the Bible to have it mean what they want it to say by three simple tricks: 1. Taking a verse out of the context. 2. Adding words to the text of the word of God. 3. Subtracting words from the text of the word of God. 

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Ok. But where is the word "rapture" mentioned exactly within the scripture?

Differences between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming


Rapture: 1 Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17
2nd Coming: 1 Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14

Rapture:2 Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18
2nd Coming: 2 Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:19:11-21


Rapture: Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2, Rev. 19:6-9

2nd Coming : Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4

Rapture: MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the
Rapture
2nd Coming: Marriage is followed by war on earth at the 2nd coming


Rapture: Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes to see) 1 Cor 15:52
2nd Coming: Slow coming, people will see Him come back. Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7

Rapture: Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Second Coming: Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7

Rapture: Jesus descends with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16
2nd Coming: No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21

Rapture: A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
2nd Coming: No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5

Rapture: Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6
2ndComming: Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8

Rapture: No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them)
2nd Coming: Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10

Rapture: Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16
2nd Coming: Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

Rapture: Jesus does not return on a white horse
2nd Coming: Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11

Rapture: For the Church only (those in Christ) 1 Thess 4:14-17
2nd Coming: For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt 25:31-43

Rapture: A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3
2nd Coming: A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5

Originally posted by armothe
Where in this passage does it say Christians will be raptured (caught up in the air)?

All I read is that those living will be changed.



Yup.

-A

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I read that passage and never found the concept of nor the word "rapture."  Yet the caustic certainty with which rapturists insist it is present in that passage exceeds even the zeal with which some insist that Jesus is actually present in the bread and wine. 

Mother Hen says "Now be nice to one another"
Staying in context is very important so, let's look at 1 Cor. 15: 49-55 (the scriptures given) The context is Resurrection and Changing from mortal into
immortality; corruptible into incorruptible. Nothing more, nothing less. This is seen to be what occures in the "Twinkling of an eye". No reference to a "Caught Up (Rapture)" outside of being inferred. These verses best associates with 1 Thess. 4: 15-16, which all occured prior the actual "Caught-up" (Rapture) scene. It seems clear, at less to me, their occurences are outside the actual "caught-up" event. Their happening does not rely upon the event "caught-up". It seems to me, at less, that each are seperate links in a chain of a much larger event, which does include the link "Gather-up". If resurrection and the change depend upon the "Caught-up" event, then their occurence would be a part of this singular event, since they occurece is independent of the "Gather-up" it seems they are to be seperated. Simple logic or knowledge can be used as a tool to scripture also.
Now someone please explain to me the difference there is in meaning, between "Gather(ed)" and "Together".
With Love (and I mean it, not just saying it be polite)
Ken

Originally posted by stumpsitting101
Mother Hen says "Now be nice to one another"
Staying in context is very important so, let's look at 1 Cor. 15: 49-55 (the scriptures given) The context is Resurrection and Changing from mortal into
immortality; corruptible into incorruptible. Nothing more, nothing less. This is seen to be what occures in the "Twinkling of an eye". No reference to a "Caught Up (Rapture)" outside of being inferred. These verses best associates with 1 Thess. 4: 15-16, which all occured prior the actual "Caught-up" (Rapture) scene. It seems clear, at less to me, their occurences are outside the actual "caught-up" event. Their happening does not rely upon the event "caught-up". It seems to me, at less, that each are seperate links in a chain of a much larger event, which does include the link "Gather-up". If resurrection and the change depend upon the "Caught-up" event, then their occurence would be a part of this singular event, since they occurece is independent of the "Gather-up" it seems they are to be seperated. Simple logic or knowledge can be used as a tool to scripture also.
Now someone please explain to me the difference there is in meaning, between "Gather(ed)" and "Together".
With Love (and I mean it, not just saying it be polite)
Ken

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Hi Ken,
I believe the word gathered is inserted into a post-trib belief, but this word is not found in the texts that talk about the rapture or being "caught up".  Two different ideas here:

Rapture: No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them)

2nd Coming: Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10 

Hi Youngman, glad to see you chipper today.
Another Bible study Help: The rule of "Not Mentioned" is very tricky, in that by applying it, may lead to a doubtful conclusion. Example: The Crucifixion and Resurrection of our Lord, four accounts, each different in recording, apply "Not Mentioned rule" and one has four Crucifixions and four Resurrections of Jesus, and all will be valid based upon "Not Mentioned Rule". Not Mentioned doesn't actually mean it is not there.
I do agree the saints will not need angels to carry them to met Jesus, yet this doesn't mean they will not be present.
Love Ya
Ken

So, is this rapture a physical thing or a spiritual thing???

If we are physical, were are we getting taken up to, considering it says that Jesus is coming hear with 10, 000 angels but also says we will be with him??

I'm just wondering were these physical bodies will ascend to???

They say Jesus disappeared into the clouds. Will it be like that??

If so, it looks kind of physical and gives the impression that there could be some Ships sitting out of orbit and they are taking us there before the lord attacks the earth and the beast with his host of 10,000 angels from the air.

May we, at leat for a while, stick with the first scriptures post #1 and glean some more information there, before we move to other veses? we're only hitting the tip there.
Blessings
Ken

That's O.K. we can use the "peal" approach since they contain the same scriptures.
Blessings
Ken

The peal (blast, sound)

The peal of a trumpet will accompany this thunder:
1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
There will of course be a "peal" from a Trumpet (Metallic, or Shofar doesn't matter), nor is there any indication from which trumpet this "peal" will occure from these scriptures. In 1 Thess., the evidence of a "peal" is there, yet in 1 Cor. the statement of a particular "Peal" is stated. It states "at the last Trump (peal). If my little knowledge of words is correct, then: If first means first, there is none of like such that can occur before this, then last would mean last, there will not be another such same occurrence to follow this event. We are not talking about the instrument, but the "peal", sound made. 1 Cor. makes the statement this is the "last trump (peal)" there will not be other "peal" to follow this one. this is the last one. May I bring into memory one of the first statements made in this post: "To understand the Rapture, one must read the Bible and believe what it says. There is no way to find the truth in the Bible unless a person is honest himself when he reads it. "

We determine our stand by what has been recorded in scriptures, not by what "could have been recorded" or "what should have been recorded".
Personally. I feel this means the Last Trump (peal-sound from a trumpet) there will not be another "peal" to follow.
with Love and Blessings
Ken

that is not a rapture well it is sort of...all that will happen on the day of judgement not before.

...One thing that I notice is missing here, and that is the word "gathered"...

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I believe gathering together means rapture in the context of Jesus' coming:

"The coming of our Lord...
and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming...
and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming,
or a 2nd rapture of the church.

I believe the "gathering together" in Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is our being "caught up together" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

...the Bridegroom, who will come very unexpectedly for His bride...

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Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

...where is the word "rapture" mentioned exactly within the scripture?...

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"Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But many Christians believe that they will be "caught up" all the way into heaven, and that this will happen before the tribulation, when the Bible doesn't promise us either of these things. It says that we Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), that we will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus as he descends at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), that this will happen "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

...Rapture: 1 Jesus coming FOR His Church...

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Note that at the rapture Jesus will come back "with" all his saints: "Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thessalonians 4:14); "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23), "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

...Rapture:2 Caught up with Him in the air...

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I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures of the church.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

...Rapture: Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father...

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Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

...Rapture: MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven...

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Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

...Rapture: Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

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Note that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that. It includes first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints, and all those changed in the twinkling of an eye, into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

...Rapture: Only Christians will see Him...

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I believe the rapture will in no way be secret, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven... with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:30-31); "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7), "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day... Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:24-36); "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

...2nd Coming: No shout mentioned...

...Rapture: Jesus does not return on a white horse...

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Note that every description of the 2nd coming and rapture doesn't include every element of it. For example, we don't find the shout or the voice of the archangel of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:52, nor do we find the white horse of Revelation 19:11 or Jesus' setting foot on the Mount of Olives of Zechariah 14:4 anywhere in Matthew 24:29-31. Do some then believe that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two separate events?

...2nd Coming: No resurrection mentioned...

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Note that the Bible says the resurrection occurs immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), when Jesus comes (1 Corinthians 15:23) at the trumpet's sounding (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus comes at the trumpet's sounding in Matthew 24:29-31.  

...Rapture: Can happen at any time...

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I don't believe that the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

 

...Rapture: No angels are sent to gather...

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Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn't say that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

 

...resurrected people don't need angels to help them...

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I don't believe it's a question of our "needing" the angels at the rapture so much as that is how Jesus has chosen it to happen. Do we who have the Spirit of Jesus himself within us ever really "need" the angels -- couldn't Jesus do everything for us directly? Yet he chooses to use angels throughout our walk in him: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14)

...2nd Coming: Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses...

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I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

...Rapture: A message of hope...

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No one should lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. No one should lose the hope even if they are at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7) goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).

"In hope of eternal life"
"That blessed hope"
"The hope of eternal life"
(Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)

...and comfort...

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Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:

"I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

"To comfort you concerning your faith: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:2-4).

In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).