Burning of the Q'uoran, and Biblical perspectives...

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Zebra1552

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Jaws13,
Except that it has followers who are violent which supports the claim. That’s why I refer to the Quran, Haddith and Islamic history to see whether I believe the ones who are violent are following Islam or whether the ones you link to are; and its not your links
As I said, your claim is nothing but a hasty generalization, and your claim is ignorant at best and xenophobic at worst. Not all Muslims are violent, so the entire religion, therefore, cannot be violent. Address the additional links I gave you.
 
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Phinehas2

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Jaws13,
As I said your mere opinion about what some Muslims as opsosed to others say, I have examined what both sets say according to what they both claim they follow and think your view is badly mistaken. Also, with the abrogation it is quite possible the Muslims liberals believe give them the nice sounding Mecca revelations such as the Jews and Christians having the same Allah as Muslims, whereas according to the Quran those verses are abrogated by the ones which refer to Jews and Christians as monkey and pigs and unbelievers which should be slayed which liberals dont wnat to believe.
 
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Zebra1552

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Jaws13,
As I said your mere opinion about what some Muslims as opsosed to others say, I have examined what both sets say according to what they both claim they follow and think your view is badly mistaken. Also, with the abrogation it is quite possible the Muslims liberals believe give them the nice sounding Mecca revelations such as the Jews and Christians having the same Allah as Muslims, whereas according to the Quran those verses are abrogated by the ones which refer to Jews and Christians as monkey and pigs and unbelievers which should be slayed which liberals dont wnat to believe.
You're entitled to your logical fallacies. I however will go by what the evidence says.
 
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Not really, as you say the facts may be somewhere between what is reported, nonetheless the facts that extremists are behind the Islamic centre may also be true.

But if you read my reply you know that I was addressing your cliams regarding the Greek Orthodox Church, not the proposed Islamic center.

The reality is the church was destroyed, an Islamic centre wasn’t. The fact is the president has put his weight behind the Islamic centre and not the church to be rebuilt.

If you read the article that I cited, you know that the church is free to rebuild on its original site. No one is stopping them. The reson that they haven't rebuilt there is because they want a larger site.

Further the President has not "put his weight behind the Islamic center" as you claim. He did deliver a speech in which he said the following:

"But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure."

He was correct in what he said--this is a matter of property law. The Islamic center has been approved by local officials. Frankly it was a stupid statement for him to make because it will most certainly hurt his party in the upcoming general election, but the fact remains that waht he said was correct.

The fact is the twin towers were not destroyed in the name of Christianity but in the name of Islam.

They were destroyed by Islamic extremists, but that isn't the issue that I addressed in my post. I specifically addressed the matter of the Greek Orthodox Church which, as I said, is free to rebuild.

Not good enough. In any case it is a matter of an "endless liberal argument" that is against Christianity, that’s exactly what it is.

Maybe if you would actually take the time to examine the facts you would realize that you are wrong. Again, no one is stopping the Greek Orthodox Church from rebuilding on its original site. The reason they haven't rebuilt the church is because they don't want to rebuild there and the Port Authority--for whatever reason--is no longer willing to pay for them to rebuild on a different site. They are not being stopped by " an 'endless liberal argument' that is against Christianity" as you claim.

If you have facts regarding the Greek Orthodox Church to support your claims please offer them. All I'm seeing is opinion.
 
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Phinehas2

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I take your points, but nonetheless the reality is the church was destroyed, an Islamic centre wasn’t. The fact is the president has put his weight behind the Islamic centre and not the church to be rebuilt is hardly a balanced reaction.
The fact is the twin towers were not destroyed in the name of Christianity but in the name of Islam.
They were destroyed by Islamic extremists, but that isn't the issue that I addressed in my post.
Ok, let me amend my remark then, the fact is the twin towers were not destroyed by Christian extremists but by Islamic extremists.

Maybe if you would actually take the time to examine the facts you would realize that you are wrong.
On examination it seems I am right, a natural balanced and even handed response would be to put political favour behind restoring a Christian church that was destroyed by Islamic extremists, before an Islamic centre.


A similar thing has happened in the UK. A very large church lost its facilities due to Olympic development and so far has been refused planning permission at two new sites. It proposed to build its new facility in the Olympic development areas suitable to be used as a venue for the Olympics which could be taken over by them only after the Olympics has finished with it. This was refused, however not long afterwards there are no initial objection to a mega mosque proposal on the site. The Mosque proposal in the end failed to submit plans in time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7244798.stm
http://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=15129
 
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Phinehas2

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Jaws13,
Sticks and stones, Phinehas.
well quite, you are entitled to your logical fallacies as well. I however, will go by what I have presented. It is something I consider possible.
Do you agree with what I have written? Are those Quranic surah's correctly quoted? Are the last two surah's 5 and 9? Is the principle of abrogation correct?
Is it not so that Mohammed gave permission for some he sent to spy in an ememy camp, to deny Islam to gain trust ? Could it not be the same spirit happening in the west whereby Muslims are all for benefits of being able to build mosques where they like, yet they dont allow the same freedom where Islam is dominant?
 
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RMDY

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They really shouldn't do this Koran burning thing "as Christians," but they are entitled to do it as free Americans.

"A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas."
- Acts 19:19


Now, if you change the context from magic books to Koran to compensate for a modern situation:

"A number who had practiced Islam brought their korans together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the korans, the total came to fifty thousand dollars."









My point is that there is biblical grounds to burn religious books. Islam denies Jesus anyway and is an anti-christ religion (they deny the death and resurrection).
 
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Zebra1552

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Jaws13,
well quite, you are entitled to your logical fallacies as well. I however, will go by what I have presented. It is something I consider possible.
Possible and probable are two completely different concepts.

Once again:


http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/21/...lent-religion/

Is Islam a religion of war or peace?


Do you agree with what I have written? Are those Quranic surah's correctly quoted? Are the last two surah's 5 and 9? Is the principle of abrogation correct?
No, no, no, and no.

Once again:

http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/21/...lent-religion/

Is Islam a religion of war or peace?


Is it not so that Mohammed gave permission for some he sent to spy in an ememy camp, to deny Islam to gain trust ? Could it not be the same spirit happening in the west whereby Muslims are all for benefits of being able to build mosques where they like, yet they dont allow the same freedom where Islam is dominant?
Off topic. You stated that Islam is violent. If that is the case, then explain this:


http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/21/...lent-religion/

Is Islam a religion of war or peace?
 
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Zebra1552

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I take your points, but nonetheless the reality is the church was destroyed, an Islamic centre wasn’t.

I never claimed otherwise.

The fact is the president has put his weight behind the Islamic centre and not the church to be rebuilt is hardly a balanced reaction.

No, the President said "But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure." He has not "put his weight behind the Islamic center as you are claiming. He addressed an issue of property law.

Further, people are opposing the Islamic center. No one is opposing rebuilding the church. They are free to rebuild on their current site anytime they want. They don't want to rebuild on their current site because the church has outgrown it. Why would the President need to "put his weight" behind rebuilding the church when noone is making any effort to stop them from rebuilding?

The fact is the twin towers were not destroyed in the name of Christianity but in the name of Islam.

Yes, by Islamic extremeists.

Ok, let me amend my remark then, the fact is the twin towers were not destroyed by Christian extremists but by Islamic extremists.


Don't think I said otherwise. Those who destroyed the towers do not represent mainstream Islam.

On examination it seems I am right, a natural balanced and even handed response would be to put political favour behind restoring a Christian church that was destroyed by Islamic extremists, before an Islamic centre.

No, because no one is trying to stop the church from rebuilding.

A similar thing has happened in the UK. A very large church lost its facilities due to Olympic development and so far has been refused planning permission at two new sites. It proposed to build its new facility in the Olympic development areas suitable to be used as a venue for the Olympics which could be taken over by them only after the Olympics has finished with it. This was refused, however not long afterwards there are no initial objection to a mega mosque proposal on the site. The Mosque proposal in the end failed to submit plans in time.

And the difference is that the Greek Orthodox Church didn't loose its property and is free to rebuild on their current site. No one is stopping them. The choice to not rebuild is theirs because they want a larger site.
 
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S.O.C

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"Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles contrary to the doctrine in which you have been taught, Avoid them! For such people do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By their smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of the naive. Your obedience is known to all and thus I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. The God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you"... ROM 16:20

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences." There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, (taqiyya and kitman) These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106)
- Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an
(3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3)
- "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28)
- A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225)
- "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Qur'an (66:2)
- "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54)
- "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and10:21) Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage.

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... "One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie. greater purpose. Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.


I DON'T RECALL JESUS OR GOD OR ANY PROFIT IN THE BIBLE CONDONING LYING TO ADVANCE CHRISTIANITY OR TO DECEIVE OTHER PEOPLE TO DESTROY THEM!

HOLY BIBLE:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children"... HIS 4:6
 
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Phinehas2

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I never claimed otherwise.
So perhaps you can take on board my point.

Yes. He did put his weight behind the Islamic centre because he has spoken with reference to the Islamic centre and not in support of the Greek church getting rebuilt. His first concern should be for what was destroyed.

Further, people are opposing the Islamic center. No one is opposing rebuilding the church. They are free to rebuild on their current site anytime they want.
Biased on your part. Sorry but the church was destroyed, it wasn’t their choosing, that it has been destroyed means they should get some help in getting it rebuilt or a new bigger one BEFORE any other new building like the Islamic centre or at least at the same time.

Why would the President need to "put his weight" behind rebuilding the church when noone is making any effort to stop them from rebuilding?
Their building was destroyed by some in the name of Islam, why would the President speak up for freedom of religion with reference to the religion in whose name the site was destroyed, whilst a place of worship that was destroyed still hasn’t been rebuilt.

Yes, by Islamic extremeists.
Your opinion and which is under debate. See SOC’s latest post.

Don't think I said otherwise. Those who destroyed the towers do not represent mainstream Islam.
Your opinion and which is under debate. See SOC’s latest post.

No, because no one is trying to stop the church from rebuilding.
Yes because they didn’t ask for their church to be destroyed in the first place, its not their fault. Maybe the Muslims might have thought about helping get a new church built when it was destroyed in the name of their religion before building in their religion.

And the difference is that the Greek Orthodox Church didn't loose its property
Do what? The property got destroyed.
 
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S.O.C

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Many muslims view the Bible as one of three holy books.


Not to stomp on your statement but I cant let something like this slip by with out the truth be told. Take a look at what the Qur’an has to say about the Holy Bible being one of their three books for peaceful and extremist alike.

Qur'an 112:1-4
"Say He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!"

Qur'an 112:1
“Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "The Absolute GOD. "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.”

Qur'an 19:88-95
“They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one. All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals”.

Qur'an 5:75
“The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!"

Qur'an 4:156
“They did not kill him (Jesus), nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”

Qur'an 98:6
The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

Qur’an 5:17
"Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'"

Qur’an 5:51
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another."

Qur’an 5:59
"Say: 'People of the Book (Bible), is it not that you hate us only because we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was formerly revealed, and because most of you are evil-doers?' Say: 'Shall I tell you who will receive a worse reward from Allah? Those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He has been angry, transforming them into apes and swine, and those who serve the devil."

Qur’an 5:72
"Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."

Qur’an 5:73
"Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three.' "

Doesn't sound to me like we all have the same religion and worship the same God.
The Qur’an has the five books of Pentateuch; however; the Qur’an version is very different from the Christian version. If you go into a local Mosque the Muslims there will tell you that they have the same “Book” as Christians do in their Qur’an and that the Qur’an has things that our Bible left out…in fact they will tell you their Qur’an is better than the Holy Bible. What they don’t tell you is, written into their Qur’an laws by Mohammad their profit; it states that anything written in the Qur’an in the latter part of the book supersedes anything written in the former. So by this, the laws of Moses in the Qur’an are null and void and have no authority in comparison to all the hate filled evil things that Muhammad has convinced his follower to believe written in the latter part. This is all part of an elaborate schema to convert Christians or non-Muslim believers into their religion by using their book to compare with our Holy Bible. MUSLIMS CAN NOT BE TRUSTED! Their Qur’an tells them to lie to you for the sake of Allah. Allah will never hold them accountable for their deceits. So a Muslim can claim to be your best friend, throw his arms around you and call you brother or sister, this could be a coworker that tells you that there religion is a peaceful religion, a doctor, gas station owner, and etc… and all of it is justifiable lies and are encouraged by the Muslim religion. The problem here people is that they are not anything like Christians or any other religion in the world. Here in America the general population are told from youth to; not lie, not steal, not murder, love your neighbor, except other peoples ideas, be tolerant of other religions, and so on. Over in the Middle East they put a machine gun in the hands of a 5 year old boy and brain wash that boy into believing that Judaism is the big devil and America is the little devil. Their TV stations in their country spread similar lies about Christians and Jews and they are forced to watch it because it’s frequently airs over and over, with little choice of different shows. It is ingrained into their culture to lie, hate, and despise mostly Jews and Americans but in really all non- Muslims. Muslims believer that they are the chosen race to exterminate Jews, Christians, and all non-Muslim believers and they are waiting for that day when America will let down its guard!
 
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S.O.C

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Many have been paying for their lives for years without this happening.
My thoughts exactly Phinehas2!
I am going to add my 2 cents to this…
I am Amazed at how all the different lies that spread about Islam being a; peaceful country, our Bible being one of their three books, and so on... are mindlessly accepted by the main stream media which in return regurgitates these lies and passes them on to all Americans so the majority of people suck it up with out question. If Muslims are a religion of peace than why did Mohammad their alleged profit (who even claims by his own submission in the Qur'an he was not a profit) why did he lead so many massacre parties, trails of blood shed, and ruin to just about every new territory he visited? Why did he murder so many Christians and Jewish people in his own time? If the Bible is one of their "3 Books" than why is it band from those Middle Eastern areas that claim it is? Why are they burning the Bible? And why are they killing innocent Christian as they have always done through out history? Islam is not just another country and Muslims are not just another religion, and a Mosque is not just another place to worship. If it was purposed for ‘Ground Zero’ that a new facility was to be erected that taught religion for; Confucianism, Hinduism, Unitarianism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism or any other kind of “ism” religion you can think of in that spot, as much as my views disagree with these views I would say its America and it’s a free country to believe what you want. But Muslims are only here for one main reason and as many of them put it “to cut the feet out from under America”. How do they accomplish this? By telling lies to us that they think in their minds will never be accountable for, go to our universities and spread their flyer and information of lies to convert the youth generation, smile and tell you they are your friend and tell you they are not “extremist”, marry as many American women or get as many American women pregnant as possible to further their Muslim religion, and so on. That is why a Mosque is not just another religious building; Not only are they a front to send US money to fund terrorist activities in other countries, but also to try and blind side Americans in to believing their Muslim lies until their day of cleansing the world of all Non- Muslims has come. If you want to believe their lies that’s up to you, if you want to believe they are good people because they smile and are nice to you than go ahead. But don’t be surprised if one day by some chance their country finial does build a nuclear weapon or some other mass weapon of destruction that puts them at the top of the world leadership list that they wont use it to destroy US, and if Islam was to put out a universal message tomorrow to all Muslims that now is the time for them to rid the world of Non- Muslim believers, you might just find that nice follower of the Qur’an that is not an extremist thrusting a knife in your back the minute you turn it. Mark my words their allegiance is not to your friendship it’s to Allah and Islam. So back to the original question is it right for the southern preacher to burn the Koran? Yes we are Christians, and we are to model Jesus Christ. So it makes this question one of very much difficulty because the message of God and Jesus Christ is a loving message of mercy and forgiveness. On the flip side the Qur’an is a book that teaches nothing but hate, bloodshed, destruction, and lying for the sake of Muslim world domination. The Bible is full of historical facts where God destroyed other false gods, shrines, temples, alters, and so on. In fact, when God brought the Hebrews out of Egypt and into the promise land that was one of the first things that was mandated by God was to rid the land of all false Gods and false worship. So we know God abhors such things. I can’t say with absolute certainty that burning a Koran will accomplish any good thing or that it will help spread the good news. But lets face it our country is not getting any better, Christians faith has not been as influential to the world as it should be, we are loosing ground everyday and having our Christian rights stripped away daily! Our founding fathers did not secure our freedoms and preserve our rich inheritance of Christianity without getting blood on their hands. If somebody does not stand up for God, Jesus and the Bible when Evil comes slithering in, than it won’t be long till we all will be affected by its venom. This country has become weak, decadent, and complaisant at best when we take the stand for Muslims who rather see us dead over our brothers in the faith. I think what that preacher did showed courage and intolerance for evil that most Christians lack. If the preacher burned their lying book would the Muslims react in a way that would bring hardship on Christians and Americans? Would they be subjected to their barbarianism? I think maybe and more than likely. But Christians and Americans are dying right now at the hands of Qur’an believing Muslims as you read this for no reason at all other than being Christian and will continue to do so weather we destroy their book of lies or not. By the way books DO have power, good or evil they still have power, words have power, and nations are led a stray by misguided ideas that come from books. Every heard of the "Origin of Species" or Mein Kampf? Think of all the changes that these two books have brought about. Now think about how many Christians would be in this world if we continue to let evil people burn up all the Holy Bibles or how many Islamic people would be Muslims without the Koran?
 
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RMDY

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Prove it. Prove that every single Muslim would get violent. A hasty generalization is a hasty generalization no matter how much you try to justify it.

I work with many muslims who are moderate or casual in their religion, and trust me, showing a picture of Muhammad, especially with a bomb on his head, would either enrage them or they would feel obligated to maybe put me to death.

(one of the chief sins in Islam is to draw Muhammad).
 
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I work with many muslims who are moderate or casual in their religion, and trust me, showing a picture of Muhammad, especially with a bomb on his head, would either enrage them or they would feel obligated to maybe put me to death.

(one of the chief sins in Islam is to draw Muhammad).
Oh, so all you have, then, is your statement that your claim is true. You cannot give me evidence beyond what you claim. Why should I believe you, then?
 
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