Can Christians lose there salvation?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12). "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believerth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-15). "...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:39). "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6). "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" (Romans 5:9). "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10). "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5). "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:7-9). "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24). "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). And again, let's have one more shot; one more time with feeling. "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21). "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:23). "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30). "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

Now, what are you doing running over to James, Hebrews, Matthew, and Acts to find obscure verses to overthrow these clear passages, written to a saved, born-again child of God?

What are you doing running to James, chapter 2, saying, "You see, a man is justified by works, not by faith only," when you know perfectly well James was written to the twelve tribes of Israel, James 1:1?

Again, what are you doing running to Hebrews, chapter 6; and Hebrews, chapter 10; and running around to 2 Peter, chapter 2 (a passage dealing with false prophets and Hebrews in the tribulation) to try to overthrow the definite, pointed, clear, exact, plain statements written and given as authoritative, absolute, infallible truth by the infallible Holy Spirit of God?

Hi, Jephunneh. We believe the Bible, as we have received it, is "the inspired word of God". Because of God's hand in it, both in the writing and the assembling, we expect perfect harmony and pure doctrine---no contradictions.

You say, "why run to James"? Do you think James said anything that contradicted anything that Jesus said? When Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits; no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit" (Matt7)---was that not saying EXACTLY the same thing as James, in chapter 2? "Do you not know, faith which PRODUCES no works is USELESS?"

What is said in Hebrews, or Jude, or Titus---is just as valid and harmonious as what is said in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

We can discern pure Scriptural doctrine from Peter's letters, from John's writings, from the entire Bible.

What is true in one book, is true in all the others...

"from the entire Bible."

Exactly and the entire bible says OSAS

The Christian, Ben, does not get church age doctrine from the book of James. That does not mean it is not profitable.

Exactly and the entire bible says OSAS

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Ha ha ha! @ Outspoken...

The Christian, Ben, does not get church age doctrine from the book of James. That does not mean it is not profitable.

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If what I quoted from the book of James merely repeats what Jesus said (and what Paul said), then why not?

Since you seem to lean towards "dispensationism", please help me to understand what made James different. I mean, they all lived at the SAME TIME, they all heard the GOSPEL, they all knew JESUS. How then was James able to write a book that doesn't apply to us today, but Matthew Mark Luke and John did? And how is it that Peter did not? What was the vehicle that caused certain writers to "write to a DIFFERENT dispensation" than us? How will we know WHICH works are "for us", and which are not? Shall we "found on the STANDARD of OSAS, and simply reject whatever books do NOT fit"?

...you would be rejecting the entire NT then...

"when you know perfectly well James was written to the twelve tribes of Israel, James 1:1"

If I used this line of reasoning, I could support the idea that Most of the N.T. could be thrown out, especially the four Gospels, for its initial audiences were of the Jewish line. The Sermon on the Mount, which I feel everyone supports and teaches, was given to a Jewish audience. This line of reasoning is "Dividing" the Word, but not "Rightly Dividing" the Word.
Blessings
Ken

Matthew, Acts and Hebrews is where most get messed up on doctrine concerning the church age.

So I must take it that the "Church Age" teachings do not include, Matt. , Acts, Hebrews and the one not mentioned, James. As I said before, we need to stop teaching "The Sermon On the Mount", if this is not for the "Church Age", by your definition. By the way, Who said this is "The Church Age"? God or man?
Think about it.
Blessings
Ken

A brief stop at the forum:

If I used this line of reasoning, I could support the idea that Most of the N.T. could be thrown out, especially the four Gospels, for its initial audiences were of the Jewish line. The Sermon on the Mount, which I feel everyone supports and teaches, was given to a Jewish audience.

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Yes Ken, the audience was Jewish and no, it is not thrown out. That would be like saying we should throw out the entire Old Testament. All scripture is profitable. What is being explained is that there was a program change from Law to Grace. It was a gradual change over many years during Paul's minisrty. The original intention of God was for Israel to bring Christ to the nations but because of their continual rejection they were broken off and the gentiles grafted in so that God could have mercy upon all. The body of Christ came into existance under Paul's watch. Peter's watch was to offer the Kingdom to Israel period. However, Peter did witness that a change was taking place when the gentile were declared clean in a vision. Did not the gentiles received the Holy Spirit before they were baptize in contrast to Acts 2:38 where the believers were baptize prior to receiving the Holy Spirit? Did not Paul rebuke Peter when the company from James arrived? These men who said that the gentiles should join the Hebrew Church (kingdom church) and observe the Law of Moses if they would be saved. Those men were correct considering that this was the program of early Acts. But they failed to see the change taking place in their lifetime.

So I must take it that the "Church Age" teachings do not include, Matt. , Acts, Hebrews and the one not mentioned, James. As I said before, we need to stop teaching "The Sermon On the Mount", if this is not for the "Church Age", by your definition. By the way, Who said this is "The Church Age"? God or man?

Think about it.

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Oh, if I had the time to explain it clearly to one and all. Yet I have a job and responsiblities that need my attention. I will write sometime in the future.

God Bless,

Mr. John

"Yes Ken, the audience was Jewish and no, it is not thrown out. That would be like saying we should throw out the entire Old Testament. All scripture is profitable. "

Thanks John, This was what I was trying to say, I must have not stated it very clearly. I didn't mentioned to O.T. on purpose, tried to stick with the mentioned books of N.T., from earlier posts. Actually, this is another topic, and not the original Thread. Sorry for leading the discussion off the original thread.
Blessings
Ken

Psalm 37
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

You see, there is a difference between falling IN Christ and falling OUT of Christ, just as there is a difference between falling down IN an airplane and falling OUT OF an airplane! Spiritually, we are seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST, according to Ephesians 2:6, and that's where we'll stay - FOREVER!

I'm reformed as well, so I don't believe you can lose salvation.

Did Peter deny Christ?

Did Peter Go to Heaven?

Did Peter deny Christ?

Did Peter Go to Heaven?

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Jesus seemed sincerely concerned about Peter's salvation---Jesus actually prayed for Peter to stand (see Luke 22:31-32).

And Jesus seemed sincerely concerned about the 11 stading---in John 6:67-70 Jesus seems to assert that it is possible for even the Disciples to fall.

Especially verse 70: "Did I not choose all twelve of you, and one of you DID go away?"

Is there any other interpretation of these two passages, but that Jesus believed "falling from salvation", is POSSIBLE?

"that Jesus believed "falling from salvation", is POSSIBLE?"

You can follow christ physically, but that doesn't mean you follow him spiritually Ben, thus is the case with Judus.

"Simon, Simon, satan has demanded to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and, when once you have turned again, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

"Many of the disciples, when they heard this, said, 'this is difficult; who can listen to it?' Jesus said, 'Does this cause you to stumbe? What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words I have speken are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 'For this reason I have said to you, that on one can come to Me, unless it is allowed ("Didomi"---granted to one asking) him from the Father.' Because of this many of His disciples withdrew ...Jesus said to the twelve, 'YOU'RE not going to go away, TOO?!' ("Me"---negative question, expects negative answer) Peter answeredd, 'Lord, where shall we go? You have words of eternal life. And we ...know You are the Holy One of God.' Jesus answered, 'Did I not choose ALL TWELVE of you, and one of you IS a devil?' (Jesus was referring to Judas)."

The use of the word, "epistrepho" in Luke 22 ("turned again"), really reveals that Jesus considered Peter, "fallen-away". Thus Jesus prayed for nothing less than Peter's return. (The same word is used to convey spiritual turning to and turning away from God, in 2Pet2:20-22).

The use of "ME" (pronounced "may") in Jn6 presents a "negative question", somewhat rhetorical---it expects an answer of "no". Yet contextually, Jesus absolutely was conveying the reality of apostasy (recognized by Peter, who said, "No, certainly not!") ---Jesus said, "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE of you DID] become a devil (fall away)."

How could Jesus have believed "OSAS" in these two passages? How does it work, theologically?

@ Outspoken...

BTW, the "follow physically but not spiritually" position has been tried with Heb6:4-6, without success; the "metochos", is MORE than "partakers" of the Holy Spirit---it does convey "partnership". Partnership with the Holy Spirit (Heb6:4), partnership in a Heavenly Calling (Heb3:1), partnership with Christ (Heb3:14). There is no way to understand these "partakers" as "squatters, physically there but not spiritually"; they are saved, and they truly parapiptos-fall-from-Christ...

Ben, has anyone in these verses been saved like you and I?

Luke 22
24   And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.


25   And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.


26   But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.


27   For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


28   Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.


29   And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;


30   That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


31   And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:


32   But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


33   And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.


34   And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.




 

2 Peter 2

9   The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


10   But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


11   Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.


12   But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


13   And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;


14   Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:


15   Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;


16   But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.


17   These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


18   For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


19   While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


20   For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


21   For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


22   But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

"position has been tried with Heb6:4-6, without success;"

I said the case with JUDUS. The people in Heb 6 never knew God to begin with as evidienced in verses I have numeriously showed you.

Ben, has anyone in these verses been saved like you and I?

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32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
It occurs to me that Peter, truly believed---and also truly wavered in that belief. Jesus says, "When thou art conveted""converted" here, is "epistrepho"---which truly means "turned/returned to God"...

THe 2Peter2 passage describes THREE GROUPS of people:
1. False Teachers
2. False Prophets
3. TRULY ESCAPED (verse 18)

The false teachers&prophets seek to entice the true ones; the true ones are described word-for-word as those in 2Pet1:1-4; the chapter ONE escapees are undeniably saved---the chapter TWO escapees are described word-for-word-the-same.

You ask, "have they been saved as you and I?" Those in chapter one are "of the same faith as Peter"---they are saved as you and I. Those in chapter 2 are word-for-word-the-same (except chapter TWO says "escaped DEFILEMENTS", and chapter ONE says "escaped CORRUPTION"; they BOTH are "apopheugo-escaped" through the "epignosis-true-knowledge" of the "Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"; I don't see any way to bend the chapter two escapees to indicate, "never saved in the FIRST place". Since it also uses words like "epistrepho-ek", turned AWAY FROM the Holy Commandment (and they are worse than BEFORE they WERE SAVED), I don't see any way to understand this passage to be saying, "they never really fell"...