A question for my bro yardpuppy.

Yarddog

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wow!

Help tadpole then, and just say it plainly, by going against the catholic church.

Just say..WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE.

Show leading catholics you do not agree with them.

Just say that one sentence. Because your fusing here.
Not fusing just "re"-fusing to state an incorrect theology. Alone was added to faith by the Protestants though they are great in their works of faith. We are really not far apart, defining words and understanding how we each use them is the some of the reason.
 
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Frogster

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I keep coming back to this verse in thinking about faith and works ...

Romans 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

This verse does a great job of clearly showing us just exactly how low the bar is set for sinfulness. If we are honest, we immediately realize that we don't have to go very many seconds before we have some thought, some desire, or some motivation that does not proceed from faith. We are very sinful creatures indeed.

Before we are justified we do not have faith in Christ and according to this verse everything we do, whether it looks good or bad, is sin.

After we have been justified and God has given us his free gift of saving faith in Christ we are able to put that faith into action by performing deeds in keeping with our repentance (Acts 26:20).

Now, that's not to say that everything we now do proceeds from faith, for that would be to say that we are no longer capable of sinning, but whatever we do that does proceed from faith is good and righteous in the sight of God. These are the good works that Eph 2:10 tells us we were created in Christ Jesus to do.

As a matter of fact, the kind of faith that God gives us always produces these faith-works, which are not done under compulsion or by threat of punishment under the law, but are works of grace which we do out of love for God and for our neighbor.

Who benefits by these works done in faith? Certainly not God. He is "omni-sufficient" and doesn't need our works, though often he uses them for his purposes, just like he uses our law-works and even our sin-works at times to achieve his purposes. Remember that to God even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags and polluted garments (Isaiah 64:6).

Do we ourselves benefit from our faith-works? Not as far as our justification is concerned. We are saved by faith apart from works. If our works had anything to do with our salvation it would only give us a reason to be proud of ourselves for having been smart enough or strong enough or good enough to choose to allow God to save us or because of some very good thing we think we may have done (Eph 2:8-9).

Our faith-works are done for the benefit of our neighbor, to serve, love, and bless him, to be a part of God's grace by which he richly provides us our daily bread and everything that goes along with it.

Loving our neighbor as ourselves in its most perfect form is a completely selfless act in which every motivation perfectly aligns with God's will. This kind of act is exceedingly rare and is something most people in most situations are simply incapable of doing, and thus we see how sinful we really are indeed, that even our best faith-works are tainted by our sinful and selfish motivations.

Thankfully, we do not have to do even these faith-works in order to be justified. Jesus our Lord has done absolutely everything that could ever be done to earn our salvation and freely exchanges his righteousness for our sins, taking our sinfulness into himself and nailing it to the cross.

Thanks. This is what I mean, it does not fuse grace and law. Good post.
 
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Frogster

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Not fusing just "re"-fusing to state an incorrect theology. Alone was added to faith by the Protestants though they are great in their works of faith. We are really not far apart, defining words and understanding how we each use them is the some of the reason.

Then you fuse the two, to become one.

Then again, why does the new creation need additions?

Works are works, Gentile, Abrahamic, Mosaic.


Why didn't paul want them added, to maintain justification?


3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh?

Works of law is a principle. Here we see it was not Moses. Abraham was justified as a Gentile, apart from works. So we can now move past the Mosaic theme.:p


27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works?

What say ye?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Not fusing just "re"-fusing to state an incorrect theology. Alone was added to faith by the Protestants though they are great in their works of faith. We are really not far apart, defining words and understanding how we each use them is the some of the reason.
Ahhh........thanks bro :blush:
 
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Yarddog

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Then you fuse the two, to become one.
What two exactly?
Then again, why does the new creation need additions?
New additions of what? We need Christ. He is the common denominator.
Works are works, Gentile, Abrahamic, Mosaic.
No, there are works which are man's and works which are God's. Paul makes this quite clear.

Why didn't paul want them added, to maintain justification?
We are justified through faith in the saving action of Jesus Christ but are you saying that the justified do not need to follow in good works? What happens in the one justified through faith and baptized into Christ who refuses to follow God's will?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh?

Works of law is a principle. Here we see it was not Moses. Abraham was justified as a Gentile, apart from works. So we can now move past the Mosaic theme.
Not sure what you are reading but Paul is talking about the Mosaic law in Galatians 3. By the Spirit and flesh he is talking about circumcision. Christians are circumcised in the spirit and Jews in the flesh.

Abraham was justified by faith, Moses was justified by faith, Paul was justified by Faith, we are justified by faith but Paul is talking about works of the Mosaic law in Galatians 3. We cannot be justified by works of the law or any works except those of Jesus Christ

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works?

What say ye?
What I have always said, we are not justified by "our" works.
 
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Yarddog

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I guess when God made the new creation, he needed us to help him a bit.:D
I'm not sure why you keep falling back into this talk, tadpole. Get off of the milk. Add a crackers to it so they get soggy, it won't hurt your belly too badly. After you get used to that add something a little more solid and someday you may be able to sit down to a T-bone.;)
 
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Frogster

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What two exactly?

New additions of what? We need Christ. He is the common denominator.

No, there are works which are man's and works which are God's. Paul makes this quite clear.


We are justified through faith in the saving action of Jesus Christ but are you saying that the justified do not need to follow in good works? What happens in the one justified through faith and baptized into Christ who refuses to follow God's will?


Not sure what you are reading but Paul is talking about the Mosaic law in Galatians 3. By the Spirit and flesh he is talking about circumcision. Christians are circumcised in the spirit and Jews in the flesh.

Abraham was justified by faith, Moses was justified by faith, Paul was justified by Faith, we are justified by faith but Paul is talking about works of the Mosaic law in Galatians 3. We cannot be justified by works of the law or any works except those of Jesus Christ


What I have always said, we are not justified by "our" works.

Thanks for talking to a milk drinker, I appreciate your lowering yourself to talk with me.:blush:

Thread factoid: #1 You never refuted the obvious OP truth, because you can't.

Thread factoid #2. Now that you see that I was correct, we are not justifed by Moses, Gentinle, Or Abrahamic works, you seek to divert, and try to add on Jesus works!:D

Read the thread bro, prove me wrong.:thumbsup:
 
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Chris81

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Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Ephesians we learn that we are saved by faith and not by works. Additionally though, we learn that we have been created for the purposes of doing good works in service to Christ.

James 2: Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
</H5>I think James message is quite clear. While we may be saved through faith in Christ, our faith is useless if we do not put it in action by serving the needs of our fellow man. While salvation is not earned by our works, they are an indication of how strong our faith is in Christ. For faith is more than just believing that Christ is the source of our salvation, it is about following Christ and serving him by serving those most in need.


Matthew 25
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Jesus speaks clearly that he will know his true followers by their willingness and desire to help the less fortunate. It is important as followers of Christ to examine ourselves and ask if we are truly doing what Christ has called us to do? Am I serving my fellow neighbor, the poor, and the needy as Christ would desire?

While it is important to understand that we can not boast in our salvation by our works, we also must understand that we have been called to as followers to serve and in that service is a reflection of our faith.
 
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Frogster

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In Ephesians we learn that we are saved by faith and not by works. Additionally though, we learn that we have been created for the purposes of doing good works in service to Christ.

</H5>I think James message is quite clear. While we may be saved through faith in Christ, our faith is useless if we do not put it in action by serving the needs of our fellow man. While salvation is not earned by our works, they are an indication of how strong our faith is in Christ. For faith is more than just believing that Christ is the source of our salvation, it is about following Christ and serving him by serving those most in need.




Jesus speaks clearly that he will know his true followers by their willingness and desire to help the less fortunate. It is important as followers of Christ to examine ourselves and ask if we are truly doing what Christ has called us to do? Am I serving my fellow neighbor, the poor, and the needy as Christ would desire?

While it is important to understand that we can not boast in our salvation by our works, we also must understand that we have been called to as followers to serve and in that service is a reflection of our faith.

We all ove to do good works, they just did not help God make a new creation.:)
 
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pehkay

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A New Creation in Christ

Scripture Reading: 2 Cor. 5:17; 4:16; Gal. 6:15


  1. As believers in Christ, we have been made a new creation—2 Cor. 5:17:
    1. The most crucial matter in God’s full, all-inclusive salvation is His making us a new creation in Christ—Gal. 6:15.
    2. The term new creation is an expression conveying the plain and real fact that we have been saved to be made a new creation—2 Cor. 6:2; 5:17.
    3. Like the old creation, the new creation is corporate; in the new creation we all are parts of the new man, the church, composed of the many sons of God—Eph. 2:15; 1:5; Heb. 2:10-12.
    4. God’s eternal purpose is not just to redeem, to repossess, the fallen old creation but to regenerate man to make him the new creation—John 3:3; 1:12-13; 2 Cor. 5:17.
    5. We are a new creation through our organic union with Christ—v. 17:
      1. To be in Christ is to be one with Him in life and nature; this is of God through our faith in Christ— 1 Cor. 1:30; Gal. 3:26-28.
      2. Apart from this organic union, we remain in the old creation, but by the organic union with the Triune God in Christ, we are in the new creation.
    6. The new creation is a person regenerated with the life of God and living in the inner man, not in the outer man— John 3:3, 5-6, 15; 2 Cor. 4:16.
  2. There is a basic difference between the old creation and the new creation—Gen. 1:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Rev. 21:2:
    1. The old creation does not have the divine life and nature, but the new creation has God within it as its life, nature, appearance, and expression.
    2. The old creation as an empty vessel has no content of God, but the new creation as a corporate vessel has God as its content—Eph. 1:22-23; 3:19b.
    3. The old creation was old because God was not part of it; the new creation is new because God is in it—4:22-24.
    4. God’s goal is to produce the new creation out of the old creation; the new creation is the old creation transformed by the divine life—2 Cor. 3:18.
    5. The new creation—the mingling of God with man— takes place when the Triune God in Christ as the Spirit is wrought into our being; this is the mingling of divinity with humanity—1 Cor. 6:17; Eph. 3:16-17a.
    6. The New Jerusalem is new because, as God’s new creation, it has God’s nature of newness—Rev. 21:2, 5a:
      1. Since newness is God, to become new is to become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead by having God wrought into us—Rom. 6:4; 7:6; Eph. 4:23-24.
      2. The New Jerusalem will be the ultimate consummation of the realm of newness, which is Christ— 2 Cor. 5:17.
  3. Christ dealt with the problem of the old creation through His crucifixion, His all-inclusive death on the cross—Luke 23:44-46; Heb. 10:20; Exo. 26:31:
    1. The main item terminated by the death of Christ was the old creation.
    2. Because Christ died on the cross as the Firstborn of all creation (Col. 1:15), His death terminated the old creation.
    3. In the sight of God, the entire old creation was crucified with Christ and buried with Him—cf. John 20:5.
  4. The new creation comes into being by resurrection— 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Cor. 15:20, 23, 45:
    1. In His work in His resurrection, Christ rose up on the first day of the week to germinate the new creation— John 20:1:
      1. The fact that Christ rose on the first day indicates that the universe had a new beginning in Christ’s resurrection.
      2. Whereas the Lord’s death was the termination of the old creation, His resurrection was the germination of the new creation.
      3. When the old creation is germinated with the divine life, it becomes the new creation.
    2. The germinating element of the new creation is the resurrected Christ as the life-giving Spirit—1 Cor. 15:45b:
      1. In His resurrection Christ became the life-giving Spirit to germinate some of those in the old creation to be the new creation—John 20:17.
      2. First Corinthians 15:45 implies the old creation with the soul as the center and the new creation with the Spirit as the center.
      3. The life-giving Spirit is the center and lifeline of the new creation—v. 45b; 2 Cor. 5:17.
  5. We are made a new creation by being regenerated— 1 Pet. 1:3; John 3:6:
    1. Regeneration causes us to become a new creation, something which has the element of God within it—1:12-13; Ezek. 36:26.
    2. Regeneration causes us to have God’s life and element, thereby making us a new creation—2 Pet. 1:4.
  6. In our experience we are in the process of becoming a new creation by being broken and renewed—2 Cor. 5:17; 4:10-12, 16; Eph. 4:23-24:
    1. Although our spirit has been regenerated, our soul with its faculties of mind, will, and emotion remains in the old creation and needs to be renewed.
    2. To be renewed is to have God’s ever-new essence dispensed into us to replace and discharge our old element— 2 Cor. 4:16; Rom. 12:2; Titus 3:5.
    3. Through the process of renewing, we are transferred from the realm of the old creation into the realm of the new creation to become the New Jerusalem—Col. 3:10; Rev. 21:2.
  7. We need to overcome the old creation by living in the ascension of Christ in resurrection—S. S. 2:8-13; 4:6-9; 6:10a:
    1. The physical things are part of the old creation; if we desire the physical things of the world, we are living in the old creation.
    2. A Christian who lives in the old creation cares for physical things.
    3. The old man cares for physical things, but we should be the new man living in ascension as God’s new creation in resurrection—Eph. 4:22, 24; 2:4-6.
 
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Yarddog

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Thanks for talking to a milk drinker, I appreciate your lowering yourself to talk with me.:blush:
As Christians we don't look at each as being above or someone being lower because we are all nothing without Christ. We should also be careful at who we rebuke because you will have to answer for all the false accusations which you make against other Christians. Catholics worship God only. The sacraments have been a part of Christianity for 2000 years. You may not accept them, but God does.

When you rebuke Christians for things which God accepts, you have rebuked God.
Thread factoid: #1 You never refuted the obvious OP truth, because you can't.
Why should I refute it. I told you over and over that "our works" cannot help God. Only the works of Jesus Christ could do that. Don't you even read what people write? Read post #3.
Thread factoid #2. Now that you see that I was correct, we are not justifed by Moses, Gentinle, Or Abrahamic works, you seek to divert, and try to add on Jesus works!:D
Pay attention. Just in case you have a problem finding something so easy, I'll get it for you.

Quote from Yarddog post #3.

Hey tadpole,

The only works that truly matter are the works of Jesus Christ. Our faith matters not "if" he had not chosen to go to the cross and die for us.

Jesus Christ is the fix. We cannot fix what Adam's failure.
Read the thread bro, prove me wrong.:thumbsup:
Now, that you should have known what I wrote all along, are you happy? Maybe even a little more humble.

The problem is not who made the fix, it is that don't understand how Paul uses "works". You don't understand what the Catholic Church or many other Churches teach about works. Instead of learning what Churches teach, you cast out false accusations.

Try listening a little, you would be surprised at what you may learn.

Got milk?:D
 
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Frogster

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Sorry, I do not follow you. :confused:

Hi.
I think it proves faith alone unto justification.

The old Adamic creation, was destroyed on the cross, Rom 6;6. Works could not fix him. Now we are in the new creation, something God created, holy and righteous, the new man. The "last Adamic creation". God did not need our works to create the new creation, that were are, and now live in.:)

It says the act of one man, made us righteous in Rom 5.
 
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Frogster

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As Christians we don't look at each as being above or someone being lower because we are all nothing without Christ. We should also be careful at who we rebuke because you will have to answer for all the false accusations which you make against other Christians. Catholics worship God only. The sacraments have been a part of Christianity for 2000 years. You may not accept them, but God does.

When you rebuke Christians for things which God accepts, you have rebuked God.

Why should I refute it. I told you over and over that "our works" cannot help God. Only the works of Jesus Christ could do that. Don't you even read what people write? Read post #3.

Pay attention. Just in case you have a problem finding something so easy, I'll get it for you.



Now, that you should have known what I wrote all along, are you happy? Maybe even a little more humble.

The problem is not who made the fix, it is that don't understand how Paul uses "works". You don't understand what the Catholic Church or many other Churches teach about works. Instead of learning what Churches teach, you cast out false accusations.

Try listening a little, you would be surprised at what you may learn.

Got milk?:D

I covered all the works. You won't answer a simple question. How did works, help God make a new creation?

What does one man, mean to you?:D Please show me how any kind of human involvement, took place.


Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
 
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Yarddog

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I covered all the works. You won't answer a simple question. How did works, help God make a new creation?
What is wrong with you?
Do you even read the post before spouting your rhetoric? I told you and even pointed out in my last post, which you give in quotations in your reply, that I answered your question in post #3.

Read carefully and here is what I put for the answer to your question, I high lighted the parts which you can't seem to comprehend. Then tell us why you don't think that this answers your question.
Quote from Yarddog post #3.
Hey tadpole,

The only works that truly matter are the works of Jesus Christ. Our faith matters not "if" he had not chosen to go to the cross and die for us.

Jesus Christ is the fix. We cannot fix what Adam's failure.
 
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What is wrong with you?
Do you even read the post before spouting your rhetoric? I told you and even pointed out in my last post, which you give in quotations in your reply, that I answered your question in post #3.

Read carefully and here is what I put for the answer to your question, I high lighted the parts which you can't seem to comprehend. Then tell us why you don't think that this answers your question.
Quote from Yarddog post #3.

Jesus Christ is the fix. We cannot fix what Adam's failure.
:thumbsup: :clap: :pray:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying/apo-qnhskousin <599> (5719), so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive.
[Genesis 5:5]

Young) Revelation 3:2 become watching, and strengthen the rest of the things that are about to die/apo-qanein <599> (5629), for I have not found thy works fulfilled before God.
 
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