Sukkot and Jesus' birth

alilsa

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Has anyone here heard the teaching or know a link about it is believed that Jesus was actually born around Sukkot? Besides Feast of Tabernacles, were there any other celebrations that will be celebrated with Jesus? I think that Sukkot was a reminder that G-d is with us and Emanuel also means G-d is with us. So, is the booths part of Sukkot still used today? Which day in this month is it about when G-d opens up the Book of Life?
 
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chetermezacha

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yes he was born on the first of sukkut and circumcised on simchat torah (the eight day), so as we dance around with the torah today, the high priest simon did so with yeshua (the torah become flesh), beautiful sight:)...its easy to work out if you start with the priestly family to which the father of Jochanan was connected to and look at when this family's turn to minister was...calculate the appearance of the messenger to him and the time of purification along with the time of birth and from the this you can work out the time of yeshuas birth in relation to jochanan, which falls on sukkot

you mentioned the book of life. well the book of judgement is opened on yom teruah (was last thurs by mainstream or last shabbat according to the biblical calender) and on this day, also called rosh hashanah, the judgement is given but we have 10 days in which to ask forgiveness and look at our actions and ways, these are called the 10 days of awe and leads to yom kippur on which day it is said the book of life is open. This will fall on this shabbat according to mainstream or on monday according to biblical calender. The book of life is listed with those who have 'washed themselves clean' as it were, so the judgement made on rosh hashanah can be over turned or enforced depending on how we engage with the 10 days of awe.
 
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Has anyone here heard the teaching or know a link about it is believed that Jesus was actually born around Sukkot? Besides Feast of Tabernacles, were there any other celebrations that will be celebrated with Jesus? I think that Sukkot was a reminder that G-d is with us and Emanuel also means G-d is with us. So, is the booths part of Sukkot still used today? Which day in this month is it about when G-d opens up the Book of Life?

If you want me to be honest about this Alilsa, I used to hold this viewpoint. What it does is connect 2 Chronicles to Luke. With the usage of the Mishna, we can see the watch periods, the length of them, and whatnot.

But I'd like to introduce you to another idea. My rabbi now holds to this idea instead. Jonathan Cahn I believe has successfully refuted this understanding. What he did was incorporate the understanding of 2 Chronicles to Luke, but the problem was the way that my rabbi incorporated the watch period, assuming that it started from the wrong time period.

In essence, what Jonathan Cahn did was look at Hippolytus's grave stone, and in his writings. Two important pieces of information were found. Hippolytus stated that Yeshua was born on December 25th, but he also saw a place where he was born on March 20, 6 B.C. His gravestone also stated the same exact thing.

This would mean that Yeshua was born on Aviv 1 on the Jewish calendar.

What is significant is that the reasoning for the tabernacles date is centered around John 1:1, where it states that Yeshua dwelt amongst us. The word tabernacled is then tied into this understanding because of the obvious connotation.

The question needs to be asked, is there anything that would indicate a tying in of this important Jewish holiday, the New Year, with a tabernacle. The answer is a clear yes when we look at Exodus 40. From here, we can rightfully infer, and based off of all of the evidence we have that Yeshua was predicted to be born on Aviv 1, and in the end, the prophecies came to pass. Yeshua was born on Aviv 1, 6 B.C., or March 20, 6 B.C.
 
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chetermezacha

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I would argue against the conclusion of the above poster for a number of reasons. Firstly, although it might fullfill a passage if it was born on 1 aviv it does not necessarily mean this was when he was born, it could be argued that it was the time of inception, as it were. But my main points for arguing against the 1 aviv date, and for the date of succot is as follows. Firstly he came in his first appearance to fulfill the early festivals, completely but the latter festivals, such as succot/yom kippur etc, he only partically fulfilled...this is bordering on off topic so wont pursue that line of thought for this time. Also, its important to understand the prayer of Miri (or miriam some messianics call) when told she was to bare the child...the messenger opened with the words' Look i bring news of great joy...' (luke 2:9) all action of G-d, blessed is he!, is to fulfill the prayers of the nation and they are all fulfilled...and this fulfillement is no less for the season of the Succot which is called a 'season of Joy' 'joy in the Torah', which is not related to aviv, that is the season of harvests. In addition, I would add the subtle indications in the language used to describe his birth arrangements, in a manger...well this must properly be understood as a booth, contrary to the knowledge he was born in a barn, he was born in a succot construction...reason being was because the tavern was full, why was it full? were there so many sons of David that it filled an entire town when the census was issued? no, the town of bet'lechem was an overflow town for housing the huge amounts of people that traveled for the festival of succot. Although on all 3 major festivals it is required to appear in Temple this didnt happen that much except for Succot, the last of the chance to appear before the holy one in his holy dwelling so succot was always much more busy than the other fesitvals (the thinking here is like the 'Amen' to the kaddish--so one fullfils the whole of kaddish if only saying amen at the end and likewise one is fullfilling all requirements of appearing if only one appears for succot). the date of 1 aviv would not account for the amount of people, enough to make taverns full and succah's put to use. The fulfillment of succot is to sleep/rest/eat inside the succah, a roofless construction, meaning one sits and observes the stars in the sky...could it be because of this rightiousness and faithfulness that those three wise rabbi's saw the star of david appear in the night sky? The cold of the coming winter and the rain through the open roof might account for him being wrapped in swaddling clothes, the same terms used by the scribes to describe how the lights of Hannuka were lit, with swaddling cloth...maybe this was the reason behind the words of Simeon, 'a light of revalation for the gentiles' reflecting, as the angel, the season and mindset of the time of year they were in?
we are told in Luke 2:39 that when they had done everything the Torah had required they went back to Galilee...if this date was 1aviv why wouldnt they merely stay on until passover? after all it is almost a 2 week walk to get to Galilee and back again for the festival (passover, shavuot and sukkot was attended by those in the land but those outside would mostly come for sukkot as i already mentioned...for this reason Yeshua said to go out to the nations to make disciples because only a few from the outer nations were ever present on shavuot), also if they were to stay for passover then why not shavuot? as again by the time they get to Galilee they will have to turn around and walk back again for the next festival...so it does not make sense if the date was 1 aviv as they would undoubable have stayed on for both festivals but the passage of luke tells us that once they finished the offerin of first born they traveled back to Galilee. The festival of succot, in contrast, finishes after the 8th day, on which he was circumcised, and is the last of the major festivals so would be the right time, after yom kippur- sukkot, had concluded, to return back home? after all Hannuka isnt a biblical festival to be observed in the same way as those requirements of us in the Torah.
There are, in conclusion, too many subtle and lose ends when putting the date at 1 aviv, or the start of the year. All the issues and points, including the order of service of Yochanans father, and other things i have not mentioned (which I believe the abover poster to be fullfully aware of anyway:), puts the day to Sukkot, without a doubt. and surely this is the actual meaning of im-anu-el, G-d is with us-this is sukkot (matthew 1:22).
 
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alilsa

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Besides Feast of Tabernacles, were there any other celebrations that will be celebrated with Jesus like passover? When is the Shema read in all these holidays; I've heard it on t.v. I think it is Deut. 6:4. In short, for years I had heard that Dec. 25th would have been too cold for shepherds to have sheep out at night in Bethlehem.
 
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chetermezacha

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Besides Feast of Tabernacles, were there any other celebrations that will be celebrated with Jesus like passover? When is the Shema read in all these holidays; I've heard it on t.v. I think it is Deut. 6:4. In short, for years I had heard that Dec. 25th would have been too cold for shepherds to have sheep out at night in Bethlehem.

all three major festivals in answer to first point, so passover, shavuot (penticost) and sukkot. In answer to shema, the shema is generally read 3 times a day, morning--midday--evening--- but one needs to understand that the shamar is not simply 'hear Israel, the L-d.....the is one' but includes the verses such as 'and if you continue harken to the commands of the l-d your G-d to love him...' 'I will give rain in the right season the early rain (indicating the growth of barley to a state of Aviv meaning the begining of passover commences) and the latter rains (meaning the blessing of the sukkot and its fulfillment).
Dec 25th has nothing to do with bibical times or even historical events but more to do with the debauchery habbits of the pagans and their gods:) There is a great deal of resource about this so take a look about and you will get a wealth of info. Also, many would have had to returned back home, including the '3 wise men' well before this time as when the snow comes, around dec time if it does fall in Israel, the passage through Judea became impassable.
 
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I would argue against the conclusion of the above poster for a number of reasons. Firstly, although it might fullfill a passage if it was born on 1 aviv it does not necessarily mean this was when he was born, it could be argued that it was the time of inception, as it were. But my main points for arguing against the 1 aviv date, and for the date of succot is as follows. Firstly he came in his first appearance to fulfill the early festivals, completely but the latter festivals, such as succot/yom kippur etc, he only partically fulfilled...this is bordering on off topic so wont pursue that line of thought for this time. Also, its important to understand the prayer of Miri (or miriam some messianics call) when told she was to bare the child...the messenger opened with the words' Look i bring news of great joy...' (luke 2:9) all action of G-d, blessed is he!, is to fulfill the prayers of the nation and they are all fulfilled...and this fulfillement is no less for the season of the Succot which is called a 'season of Joy' 'joy in the Torah', which is not related to aviv, that is the season of harvests. In addition, I would add the subtle indications in the language used to describe his birth arrangements, in a manger...well this must properly be understood as a booth, contrary to the knowledge he was born in a barn, he was born in a succot construction...reason being was because the tavern was full, why was it full? were there so many sons of David that it filled an entire town when the census was issued? no, the town of bet'lechem was an overflow town for housing the huge amounts of people that traveled for the festival of succot. Although on all 3 major festivals it is required to appear in Temple this didnt happen that much except for Succot, the last of the chance to appear before the holy one in his holy dwelling so succot was always much more busy than the other fesitvals (the thinking here is like the 'Amen' to the kaddish--so one fullfils the whole of kaddish if only saying amen at the end and likewise one is fullfilling all requirements of appearing if only one appears for succot). the date of 1 aviv would not account for the amount of people, enough to make taverns full and succah's put to use. The fulfillment of succot is to sleep/rest/eat inside the succah, a roofless construction, meaning one sits and observes the stars in the sky...could it be because of this rightiousness and faithfulness that those three wise rabbi's saw the star of david appear in the night sky? The cold of the coming winter and the rain through the open roof might account for him being wrapped in swaddling clothes, the same terms used by the scribes to describe how the lights of Hannuka were lit, with swaddling cloth...maybe this was the reason behind the words of Simeon, 'a light of revalation for the gentiles' reflecting, as the angel, the season and mindset of the time of year they were in?
we are told in Luke 2:39 that when they had done everything the Torah had required they went back to Galilee...if this date was 1aviv why wouldnt they merely stay on until passover? after all it is almost a 2 week walk to get to Galilee and back again for the festival (passover, shavuot and sukkot was attended by those in the land but those outside would mostly come for sukkot as i already mentioned...for this reason Yeshua said to go out to the nations to make disciples because only a few from the outer nations were ever present on shavuot), also if they were to stay for passover then why not shavuot? as again by the time they get to Galilee they will have to turn around and walk back again for the next festival...so it does not make sense if the date was 1 aviv as they would undoubable have stayed on for both festivals but the passage of luke tells us that once they finished the offerin of first born they traveled back to Galilee. The festival of succot, in contrast, finishes after the 8th day, on which he was circumcised, and is the last of the major festivals so would be the right time, after yom kippur- sukkot, had concluded, to return back home? after all Hannuka isnt a biblical festival to be observed in the same way as those requirements of us in the Torah.
There are, in conclusion, too many subtle and lose ends when putting the date at 1 aviv, or the start of the year. All the issues and points, including the order of service of Yochanans father, and other things i have not mentioned (which I believe the abover poster to be fullfully aware of anyway:), puts the day to Sukkot, without a doubt. and surely this is the actual meaning of im-anu-el, G-d is with us-this is sukkot (matthew 1:22).

You are missing the watch periods. Besides this, I don't think any of this hinders the Aviv 1st belief. You didn't really thoroughly address Exodus 40. And further, it doesn't say anything about them going to Galillee. Not sure where you're getting that from.
 
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well...in the southern hemisphere...Dec 25th is the middle of summer...I'd think it'd be too hot LOL

Even if this comment had relevance, (which it doesn't - " "...the last week of December corresponds to the tenth
month of the Jewish sacred calendar known as Tebeth,
when there are frequent frosts and occasional snow
florishes in Jerusalem..."
- The Geography of the Bible; by Denis Baly" Hippolytus refutes this.
 
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chetermezacha

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You are missing the watch periods. Besides this, I don't think any of this hinders the Aviv 1st belief. You didn't really thoroughly address Exodus 40. And further, it doesn't say anything about them going to Galillee. Not sure where you're getting that from.

The text which mentions them return right after the snip and cut is in luke 2:39. And you are correct that I didnt address exodus 40 as it does not indicate it is a prophecy concerning the future, one a statue for all generations, a perpetual decree, so in this case for im-anu-el, sukkot takes priority of direction over the exodus verse. I think that sometimes midrashic explainations go too far when they apply meanings to text that clearly is just midrash, often in Talmud, as you know, this is evident. By watch periods I am assuming you mean the periods of the night watch? if this is the case this is in relation to Temple duty, as Yeshua states on many occations so relates to how his disciples act and perform, things they do, after he appears...as he said, I will be coming as a thief in the night, meaning around the 2nd or 3rd watch of the Temple duty.

Maybe you didnt mean the night watch? but in your original post this was never clearly defined :) (Dont expect you to put entire sermon down though friend). secondly in your original post you wrote:

"The question needs to be asked, is there anything that would indicate a tying in of this important Jewish holiday, the New Year, with a tabernacle. The answer is a clear yes when we look at Exodus 40. From here, we can rightfully infer, and based off of all of the evidence we have that Yeshua was predicted to be born on Aviv 1, and in the end, the prophecies came to pass. Yeshua was born on Aviv 1, 6 B.C., or March 20, 6 B.C."

your connection is to a new year, 1 aviv, to a tabernacle although this is based on the translation of the exodus 40 isnt it? after all, if does not say in the text that a sukkah was constructed but the Mishkan, the tent of meeting and the terminology (and tabernacling connnotatons that come with it) of a 'tabernacle' creates meaning to the text that isnt there when understood as the Mishkan was constructed, because Mishkan, unlike tabernacle, does not indicate a tabernacling with people. I understand the shekinah rested on the mishkan but surely this is the difference between 'meeting with' and 'dwelling with', clearly the birth of the messiah was more the dwelling with than the meeting with, wouldnt you agree?

All in all, I believe it s vital we read all text in the context and try to understand the period of year within the words and actions of people in the narrative. This is an important reason I have suggested to Christians to live a Torah lifestyle so they will automatical know the background when they read the messianic text. It is the same when reading the books of the prophets, they always need to be read in context to the king of the prophet's time and the situation at that time, without understanding the background we can take any verse, teaching, scripture and create something from it. When we read everything concerning the birth of messiah there is no doubt the feelings I have at the close of a year, the coming winter, the final offerings, the advent of yom kippur and sukkot, the smell of lulav the citrius fruit, the season of joy and G-d's closeness to us, all of these things and more come across in the biblical narrative of his birth and this also supports the more logical and logistical interpretation of when he was born, a date that cannot be mistake as we know the priest family of Jochanahs father and we know the time of year that family served in the Temple, these two facts along is enough to work out an accurate time.
 
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Lulav

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yes he was born on the first of sukkut and circumcised on simchat torah (the eight day), so as we dance around with the torah today, the high priest simon did so with yeshua (the torah become flesh), beautiful sight:)...its easy to work out if you start with the priestly family to which the father of Jochanan was connected to and look at when this family's turn to minister was...calculate the appearance of the messenger to him and the time of purification along with the time of birth and from the this you can work out the time of yeshuas birth in relation to jochanan, which falls on sukkot

you mentioned the book of life. well the book of judgement is opened on yom teruah (was last thurs by mainstream or last shabbat according to the biblical calender) and on this day, also called rosh hashanah, the judgement is given but we have 10 days in which to ask forgiveness and look at our actions and ways, these are called the 10 days of awe and leads to yom kippur on which day it is said the book of life is open. This will fall on this shabbat according to mainstream or on monday according to biblical calender. The book of life is listed with those who have 'washed themselves clean' as it were, so the judgement made on rosh hashanah can be over turned or enforced depending on how we engage with the 10 days of awe.


Yes, I agree, and it brings Johns ( Yochanans) birthday 6 months prior to Yeshua's which would be on Passover, which is when we welcome Eliyahu during our Seders, (Elijah) and as Yeshua said, that John was Eliyahu comes if they could understand that.
 
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Lulav

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all three major festivals in answer to first point, so passover, shavuot (penticost) and sukkot. In answer to shema, the shema is generally read 3 times a day, morning--midday--evening--- but one needs to understand that the shamar is not simply 'hear Israel, the L-d.....the is one' but includes the verses such as 'and if you continue harken to the commands of the l-d your G-d to love him...' 'I will give rain in the right season the early rain (indicating the growth of barley to a state of Aviv meaning the begining of passover commences) and the latter rains (meaning the blessing of the sukkot and its fulfillment).
Dec 25th has nothing to do with bibical times or even historical events but more to do with the debauchery habbits of the pagans and their gods:) There is a great deal of resource about this so take a look about and you will get a wealth of info. Also, many would have had to returned back home, including the '3 wise men' well before this time as when the snow comes, around dec time if it does fall in Israel, the passage through Judea became impassable.


I agree with pretty much of what you said, but as far as the 'wise men' which I believe to have been diaspora sages, who else in the pagan world would care about Israel's new King? A careful reading will show that it is not as the Christians present, the creche with Mary, Joseph and little baby Jesus surrounded by the animals and the shepherds and the three 'wise' men. First there is no mention of how many came. Second the star did not lead them to the animals sukkah in Bethlehem as this section of Matthew shows. Also he was no longer a babe, but called a young child, probably walking, some say between 1-2 years of age.

9 When they had heard the king, they departed ; and, lo , the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was . 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down , and worshiped him
 
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The text which mentions them return right after the snip and cut is in luke 2:39. And you are correct that I didnt address exodus 40 as it does not indicate it is a prophecy concerning the future, one a statue for all generations, a perpetual decree, so in this case for im-anu-el, sukkot takes priority of direction over the exodus verse. I think that sometimes midrashic explainations go too far when they apply meanings to text that clearly is just midrash, often in Talmud, as you know, this is evident. By watch periods I am assuming you mean the periods of the night watch? if this is the case this is in relation to Temple duty, as Yeshua states on many occations so relates to how his disciples act and perform, things they do, after he appears...as he said, I will be coming as a thief in the night, meaning around the 2nd or 3rd watch of the Temple duty.

Maybe you didnt mean the night watch? but in your original post this was never clearly defined :) (Dont expect you to put entire sermon down though friend). secondly in your original post you wrote:

"The question needs to be asked, is there anything that would indicate a tying in of this important Jewish holiday, the New Year, with a tabernacle. The answer is a clear yes when we look at Exodus 40. From here, we can rightfully infer, and based off of all of the evidence we have that Yeshua was predicted to be born on Aviv 1, and in the end, the prophecies came to pass. Yeshua was born on Aviv 1, 6 B.C., or March 20, 6 B.C."

your connection is to a new year, 1 aviv, to a tabernacle although this is based on the translation of the exodus 40 isnt it? after all, if does not say in the text that a sukkah was constructed but the Mishkan, the tent of meeting and the terminology (and tabernacling connnotatons that come with it) of a 'tabernacle' creates meaning to the text that isnt there when understood as the Mishkan was constructed, because Mishkan, unlike tabernacle, does not indicate a tabernacling with people. I understand the shekinah rested on the mishkan but surely this is the difference between 'meeting with' and 'dwelling with', clearly the birth of the messiah was more the dwelling with than the meeting with, wouldnt you agree?

All in all, I believe it s vital we read all text in the context and try to understand the period of year within the words and actions of people in the narrative. This is an important reason I have suggested to Christians to live a Torah lifestyle so they will automatical know the background when they read the messianic text. It is the same when reading the books of the prophets, they always need to be read in context to the king of the prophet's time and the situation at that time, without understanding the background we can take any verse, teaching, scripture and create something from it. When we read everything concerning the birth of messiah there is no doubt the feelings I have at the close of a year, the coming winter, the final offerings, the advent of yom kippur and sukkot, the smell of lulav the citrius fruit, the season of joy and G-d's closeness to us, all of these things and more come across in the biblical narrative of his birth and this also supports the more logical and logistical interpretation of when he was born, a date that cannot be mistake as we know the priest family of Jochanahs father and we know the time of year that family served in the Temple, these two facts along is enough to work out an accurate time.

Sukkot is going to be fulfilled later. In fact this understanding actually gives a fuller picture of how God's appointed times demonstrate a God of order. Our God is not a God of confusion. Amen? You are actually playing with words here. Mishkan means tabernacled. The same Hebrewic word for tabernacled is dwelt in the Greek. Thats where the importance of the connotation lies. To see the importance of Mishkan in Jewish understanding see - http://www.rabdavis.org/tabernacle_mishkan.htm

From the article "

YHVH�s Plan of Redemption and Yahshua HaMashiach is revealed in the Mishkan.


The Tabernacle/Mishkan

In Hebrew, the Tabernacle is called the Mishkan. The earthly Tabernacle constructed by G-d�s direction found in Exodus chapters 25-40 is a copy of the Heavenly Mishkan. The Tabernacle as a type is most revealing when taken as a type of the Per�son and the work of the Yahshua HaMashiach."

Wait, isn't this what you said it couldn't possibly be referring to?

I will try to see if I can find the DVD from Jonathan Cahn on this most important subject. He successfully demonstrates how the people who are utilizing the watch periods to demonstrate that Sukkot was the holiday being fulfilled are in error. My rabbi made the same mistaken and has since recalculated his results and gotten Aviv 1 as well. Which is why we now celebrate Yeshua's birthday on Aviv 1.

But if you wish to persist in the matter, find where John speaks of a Sukka in the book of John.
 
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Yes, Exodus 40 is about the setting up of the Mishkan...however, you can't make Aviv 1 the necessary harvest period. The Text says in Luke 2:8:
"In the countryside nearby were some shepherds spending the night in the fields..."

This is not the wilderness where the shepherds live. They were in the farmers pastors. This only occurs right after the harvest has been completed and before the rainy season begins. The land of the milk and honey do not mix. The farmers and shepherds do not live together...there damages if one member of the flocks eats the crops; except when the harvest is done and then the animals will glean the rest. When the animals do this, they will also fertilize the soil.
 
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alilsa

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O.k., so in at least 7 years from now, I can go to Jerusalem with Jesus and we celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles during the millenium? (Zechariah 14:16 has something about celebrating the feast of Tabernacles). Happy Sukkot and Simchat Torah! Incidently, I heard someone say that the star the wisemen followed were 4 planets the came in line and produced all kinds of signs in the heaven. The wisemen found Jesus when he was about 15 months old, during Hannukkah. The star went away after Hannukah. The king thought the signs in the heaven were for him and thought he was such a great king. The one that did the study said Jesus was born in the sign of Virgo, whenever that was because of Isaiah 7:14 said it was in the sign of the virgin. The man was on t.v last Christmas talking about it. I thought Exodus 40 was when they set up the tabernacle and it was about 2 weeks before Passover. I remember Purim is around March but Sukkot is usually in Sept. or Oct. here in the US., isn't it?
 
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chetermezacha

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I agree with pretty much of what you said, but as far as the 'wise men' which I believe to have been diaspora sages, who else in the pagan world would care about Israel's new King? A careful reading will show that it is not as the Christians present, the creche with Mary, Joseph and little baby Jesus surrounded by the animals and the shepherds and the three 'wise' men. First there is no mention of how many came. Second the star did not lead them to the animals sukkah in Bethlehem as this section of Matthew shows. Also he was no longer a babe, but called a young child, probably walking, some say between 1-2 years of age.

BARUCH HASHEM!!! for one with such wisdom! you bring tears to my eyes!!!! You speak truth, concerning the spirit of Eli in the boy of Jochanahn and the pesach. Also on the 3 wise men, Rabbi's, although I didnt go as far into this but might have left it to open and prone to assumptions. Yes they were Jews who came from dispora, faithful enough to present themselves for this honourable time in Israel and because they were under sukkot they saw the star.
Also, if you noticed...when King Herod, the betrayor, did bad for the children of the Hebrews, he did so for those aged under 2years old, in accordance to the calculation of those scribes.
 
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