Authority

Partaker of Christ said:

Why would you believe that the dead saints, have authority to intercede?

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Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

sunlover1 said:

These are very helpful passages that give us a lot of insight into the
way things worked at that time.
Thanks!

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Yeah I love the "examples to" the flock, as Peter "gets it" as they be arguing bout WHO is the greatest in front of the greatest And what did the greatest do? He got beneathe them as one who served and washed their feet In this THE greatest (our Lord) was "setting" an example in himself for them to follow. He walked in that greatness (servant of all) among them (who) appeared to "aspire to" greatness (but perhaps a little off kilter of what our Lord has in mind) huh?

What cha's talking bout?

WHO is the GREATEST?

I think he needed to show them what the heavenly kind of greatness was, not the earthly corrupted fleshy kind

And I'm sure Peter reccognized he had the same thing in his flesh (the wrong idea at first) reccognized it and utilized it in pointing out "NOT as lords over but EXAMPLE TO" . Jesus Christ being an example to them, and they were to follow His example and thus being examples to others taught the same, "be examples to the flock" (so on and so forth)

"Follow me AS I follow Christ" type thing.

Good example, not bad ones

Partaker of Christ said:

Why would you believe that the dead saints, have authority to intercede?

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When the Spirit departed from Saul and God wasnt answering him anymore being desparate he called upon Samuel, although Samuel sorta said the same thing to him (like, why are you bothering me if God is not answering ya) type thing. So I dont understand that myself because Jesus taught them to pray to the Father, not to the angels or folks that have passed on.

Jesus also says this of himself

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

sunlover1 said:

Howdy... thank you jckstraw!

When you say "shares" do you mean that as in
a sort of mantle passing??

Could you give some examples?

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Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. ;:18 18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all.

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." Is Jesus infallible or not/ If He is Then He just gave it to the Apostles.

John 16:14-15 13: When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
14: He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
15: All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 20:19-23 19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, ) "Peace be with you." 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."



John18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

As the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed Infallible authority.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Auburn88 said:

Just to clarify, it isn't that we don't believe in the intercession of the saints, it's that we believe in obeying the God's command not to pray to the dead.

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According to scripture they are not dead. Here is an example I have personally known among many.


Let me share Bob and Maureen Digan personal experiences with the Divine Mercy devotion.At age 14 Maureen was stricken with an incurable disease and, over the next several years, lost her faith, her hope, and one leg. In 1981 the Digans made a pilgrimage to Sister Faustina Kowalska's tomb in Poland. Sister Faustina, a member of the Congregation of Our Lady of Mercy, received private revelations about God's mercy in the 1930s. There Maureen was suddenly cured of her illness.
Before the age of 15, Maureen Digan enjoyed a normal healthy life. Then she was struck down with a very serious, slowly progressive but terminal disease called lymphedima. This is a disease that does not respond to medication and does not go into remission. Within the next ten years Maureen had fifty operations and had lengthy confinements in the hospital of up to a year at a time.
Friends and relations suggested she should pray and put her trust in God. But Maureen could not understand why God had allowed her to get this disease in the first place, and had lost her faith completely. Eventually her deteriorating condition would require the amputation of one leg.
One evening while Maureen was in the hospital her husband Bob watched a film on Divine Mercy and there he became convinced of the healing powers of intercession by Sr. Faustina. Bob persuaded Maureen and the doctors that she should go to the tomb of Sr. Faustina in Poland. Together with her husband, son, and Fr. Seraphim Michalenko, MIC (a priest of the Congregation of Marians of the Immaculate Conception), they traveled to St. Faustina's tomb at the Shrine of The Divine Mercy outside Krakow, Poland. They arrived in Poland on March 23, 1981 and Maureen went to confession for the first time since she was a young girl.
At the tomb Maureen remembers praying for healing. Suddenly she thought she was losing her mind. All the pain seemed to drain out of her body and her swollen leg, which was due to be amputated shortly, went back to its normal size. When she returned to the USA she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion that she was completely healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.
"To me, my spiritual healing was much greater than my physical one," Maureen nonetheless admitted. "Go to confession and tell it all," she advised.

Trento said:

According to scripture they are not dead. Here is an example I have personally known among many.


Let me share Bob and Maureen Digan personal experiences with the Divine Mercy devotion.At age 14 Maureen was stricken with an incurable disease and, over the next several years, lost her faith, her hope, and one leg. In 1981 the Digans made a pilgrimage to Sister Faustina Kowalska's tomb in Poland. Sister Faustina, a member of the Congregation of Our Lady of Mercy, received private revelations about God's mercy in the 1930s. There Maureen was suddenly cured of her illness.
Before the age of 15, Maureen Digan enjoyed a normal healthy life. Then she was struck down with a very serious, slowly progressive but terminal disease called lymphedima. This is a disease that does not respond to medication and does not go into remission. Within the next ten years Maureen had fifty operations and had lengthy confinements in the hospital of up to a year at a time.
Friends and relations suggested she should pray and put her trust in God. But Maureen could not understand why God had allowed her to get this disease in the first place, and had lost her faith completely. Eventually her deteriorating condition would require the amputation of one leg.
One evening while Maureen was in the hospital her husband Bob watched a film on Divine Mercy and there he became convinced of the healing powers of intercession by Sr. Faustina. Bob persuaded Maureen and the doctors that she should go to the tomb of Sr. Faustina in Poland. Together with her husband, son, and Fr. Seraphim Michalenko, MIC (a priest of the Congregation of Marians of the Immaculate Conception), they traveled to St. Faustina's tomb at the Shrine of The Divine Mercy outside Krakow, Poland. They arrived in Poland on March 23, 1981 and Maureen went to confession for the first time since she was a young girl.
At the tomb Maureen remembers praying for healing. Suddenly she thought she was losing her mind. All the pain seemed to drain out of her body and her swollen leg, which was due to be amputated shortly, went back to its normal size. When she returned to the USA she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion that she was completely healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.
"To me, my spiritual healing was much greater than my physical one," Maureen nonetheless admitted. "Go to confession and tell it all," she advised.

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According to scripture they are not dead.

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Doesnt matter . . . ur not supposed to pray to ANYONE but God.

The dead part has to do with communing with those who are PHYSICALLY not here. Sure we kno that they remain conscious entities . . . but we are not allowed to persue contact with them, as these experiences can be SO easily faked.

Prayer to the Father Son or Spirit is enough . . .

Trento said:

According to scripture they are not dead.

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Really? What verse says that people who have died are not dead?

Who are the people the Bible refers to as "the dead in Christ"?

Here is an example I have personally known among many.

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Don't care. We get our doctrine from scripture, not from subjective, anecdotal stories.

And, frankly, the grossly Unbible nature of your story aside, it's nonsensical. Why do I need to pray to a dead person and go through a third party to talk to my own Father?

Auburn88 said:

Really? What verse says that people who have died are not dead?

Who are the people the Bible refers to as "the dead in Christ"?



Don't care. We get our doctrine from scripture, not from subjective, anecdotal stories.

And, frankly, the grossly Unbible nature of your story aside, it's nonsensical. Why do I need to pray to a dead person and go through a third party to talk to my own Father?

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John 11:25-26 (New International Version)


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Apparenly you don't.




You have reminded me of the fallowing episode involving Emile Zola's an Atheist who visited to Lourdes in 1892. The French Novelist, who prided himself on his anticlericalism and atheism, was witness to one of many miraculous cures . Marie Lemarchand was described by Sola as having"a case of Lupus which had preyed on the unhappy woman's nose and mouth.
The cartilage of the nose was almost eaten away, the mouth was drawn up all on one side by the swollen condition of the upper lip. The whole was a frightful distorted mass of matter and oozing blood".
The 18 year old was taken to the baths and came out completely healed, yet Zola told the director of the medical Bureau, "were i to see all of the sick at Lourdes cured, i would not believe in a miracle".

The Bible has no credibility apart from the Church's authoritative witness. What you need to do is prove the inspiration, inerrancy and authority of the Bible independently from the witness of the Historic Christian Church.
You might think that we usurp God's direct authority by interposing offical teachings that are infallible. You thus ignore the clear words of Scripture in support of this (eg, Luke 16, John 14, John 16, Matthew 10).


Orthodox Christianity accepts the intercession and invocation of the saints. IF I am willing to accept the testimony of the Fathers of the Church when it came to such abstruse dogmas as that of the Trinity (three hypostases, one ousia) and Chalcedonian Christology (two ousia, one hypostasis), as well as the final canon of the New Testament Scriptures which was finally settled by St. Athanasius, then I must also accept their testimony concerning the intercession and invocation of the saints. That is, if they had ever said anything about it. If St. Athanasius can fight for homoousios over homoiousios; and, in similarly abstract language Sts. Gregory the Theologian and Basil the Great could fight for the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, then certainly they would have commented on the error of the intercession and invocation of the saints which existed in their day. I vaguely assumed that this “pagan practice” must have developed later, or outside of the truly Christian spheres in which these basic dogmas of our faith were formulated but Testimony to this practice in Rome, Palestine, Syria, Africa, or Asia Minor separately, was widespread across the ancient world implying a common apostolic foundation. this testimony came not from some random, half-pagan “saint” from the backwaters of Mesopotamia, Cilicia, or the Pentapolis but from the defenders and promoters of the Nicene Creed: the Fathers who had suffered, struggled, and died for the doctrine of the Trinity, the full divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit .These doctrines most Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians still hold in common—in the face of all that we disagree on. The witness, therefore, of these Christian giants must be taken as more than simply “the doctrine of men”. They prayed to the saints without considering them to be demi-gods; they asked the prayers of those who to whom the Psalmist and Christ said, “Ye are gods.”Could the Church Which Christ promised would withstand the “Gates of Hades” really have apostatized within a generation of its freedom across the breadth of the entire ancient world I doubt it if Jesus said I will be with the Church till the end of the age.

Trento said:

John 11:25-26 (New International Version)


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Apparenly you don't.




You have reminded me of the fallowing episode involving Emile Zola's an Atheist who visited to Lourdes in 1892. The French Novelist, who prided himself on his anticlericalism and atheism, was witness to one of many miraculous cures . Marie Lemarchand was described by Sola as having"a case of Lupus which had preyed on the unhappy woman's nose and mouth.
The cartilage of the nose was almost eaten away, the mouth was drawn up all on one side by the swollen condition of the upper lip. The whole was a frightful distorted mass of matter and oozing blood".
The 18 year old was taken to the baths and came out completely healed, yet Zola told the director of the medical Bureau, "were i to see all of the sick at Lourdes cured, i would not believe in a miracle".

The Bible has no credibility apart from the Church's authoritative witness. What you need to do is prove the inspiration, inerrancy and authority of the Bible independently from the witness of the Historic Christian Church.
You might think that we usurp God's direct authority by interposing offical teachings that are infallible. You thus ignore the clear words of Scripture in support of this (eg, Luke 16, John 14, John 16, Matthew 10).


Orthodox Christianity accepts the intercession and invocation of the saints. IF I am willing to accept the testimony of the Fathers of the Church when it came to such abstruse dogmas as that of the Trinity (three hypostases, one ousia) and Chalcedonian Christology (two ousia, one hypostasis), as well as the final canon of the New Testament Scriptures which was finally settled by St. Athanasius, then I must also accept their testimony concerning the intercession and invocation of the saints. That is, if they had ever said anything about it. If St. Athanasius can fight for homoousios over homoiousios; and, in similarly abstract language Sts. Gregory the Theologian and Basil the Great could fight for the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, then certainly they would have commented on the error of the intercession and invocation of the saints which existed in their day. I vaguely assumed that this “pagan practice” must have developed later, or outside of the truly Christian spheres in which these basic dogmas of our faith were formulated but Testimony to this practice in Rome, Palestine, Syria, Africa, or Asia Minor separately, was widespread across the ancient world implying a common apostolic foundation. this testimony came not from some random, half-pagan “saint” from the backwaters of Mesopotamia, Cilicia, or the Pentapolis but from the defenders and promoters of the Nicene Creed: the Fathers who had suffered, struggled, and died for the doctrine of the Trinity, the full divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit .These doctrines most Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians still hold in common—in the face of all that we disagree on. The witness, therefore, of these Christian giants must be taken as more than simply “the doctrine of men”. They prayed to the saints without considering them to be demi-gods; they asked the prayers of those who to whom the Psalmist and Christ said, “Ye are gods.”Could the Church Which Christ promised would withstand the “Gates of Hades” really have apostatized within a generation of its freedom across the breadth of the entire ancient world I doubt it if Jesus said I will be with the Church till the end of the age.

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1. Prooftexting

2. Has nothing to do with the fact that we are NOT to pray to anyone but God . . . dead or alive

3. The continuning consciousness of the person after physical death and commuinicating with them IS CONSIDERED NECROMANCY . . . and we are prohibited from this in the OT . . . why do you think samuel rebukes saul for having him summoned for inquiry?

Yes they are still "alive" in the sense of consciousness, but we r NEVER told to pray to them or seek their aid. The God we serve is ENOUGH.


1 Sam 28:8-19
8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, " Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you." 9 But the woman said to him, "Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" 10 Saul vowed to her by the LORD, saying, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." 11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul." 13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth." 14 He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do." 16 Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17 "The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 "As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"
NASU

Trento said:

John 11:25-26 (New International Version)


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Apparenly you don't.

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Apparently, Catholics don't, either, seeing as how every Catholic church still conducts funerals for its members who die.

The Bible has no credibility apart from the Church's authoritative witness.

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And that is where we differ: Catholics believe the Bible's credibility comes from the Catholic Church, whereas Christians believe that the Church's authority comes from the Bible and that the Bible is authoritative in and of itself, simply by virtue of the fact that it is the Word of God.

Eucharisted said:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

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Then, why would Paul be betwixt going to be with the Lord, or staying with them (in the flesh)?

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Php 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

He said that to abide in the flesh, would be more needful for them

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Partaker of Christ said:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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This is the part where the Catholic says, "Well don't you ask other people in your illegitimate, non-Apostolic churches to pray for you?"

Let me just intercept that one and say yes, we do. However, the difference is that (a) they're not dead, (b) we're not pracying to them, and (c) we don't see them as being endowed with special spiritual authority to carry our prayers to God or to do miracles for us.

Auburn88 said:

This is the part where the Catholic says, "Well don't you ask other people in your illegitimate, non-Apostolic churches to pray for you?"

Let me just intercept that one and say yes, we do. However, the difference is that (a) they're not dead, (b) we're not pracying to them, and (c) we don't see them as being endowed with special spiritual authority to carry our prayers to God or to do miracles for us.

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Yes, we pray for one another, but not to one another

Auburn88 said:

Apparently, Catholics don't, either, seeing as how every Catholic church still conducts funerals for its members who die.




And that is where we differ: Catholics believe the Bible's credibility comes from the Catholic Church, whereas Christians believe that the Church's authority comes from the Bible and that the Bible is authoritative in and of itself, simply by virtue of the fact that it is the Word of God.

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I think it's important, instead of taking ONE verse, to look at the entire passage in context:

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Clearly we see that praying for others on their behalf is good and pleasing to God. It does not take away his role as the one mediator in any way.

If one is going to say that Christ is the only mediator and we should "pray only to Jesus", then one should also not ask others to pray for them... lest they be contradicting themselves. One must understand what it means for Christ to be the one mediator before they throw the argument on the table. Of course, we should also pray to Jesus but even Jesus himself encouraged us to pray for others (Matt. 5:44).

What follows this explanation is usually, "Well, those in heaven are dead. They can't hear us."

Is this true?

Revelation 5:8 says, "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (See also, Rev. 8:3-4)

Here we see 24 elders (humans) in heaven offering the prayers of the saints. In order for them to offer the prayers of the saints, they must know what these prayers are. Prayers are not physical elements and must be offered mentally.... And, on another note, those in heaven, are only dead in earthly body. Their souls remain alive in Christ. There is only ONE body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4) and those who pass on to heaven do not cease being a member of that body. In fact, they are perfectly united to Christ! They are made righteous and the prayers of the righteous are "powerful and effective" (James 5:16). Would God not permit those in heaven to pray for us when their prayers for others are pleasing, powerful and effective?

In addition to Rev 5:8, we see prayers to angels in Psalms 103...

20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.

21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.

Clearly, the Bible directs us to pray to those in heaven through this passage and ones like it.

The bottom line is, we must take all of Scripture into account when we discern what a passage means. Christ as the one mediator does not mean that others cannot pray for us, including those in heaven. Scripture tells us that those in heaven can hear our prayers and that they offer them to God for us. This is part of the beauty of the Christian faith: that we are not disconnected from other parts of the body of Christ but that, through the power of God, they are able to intercede for us! This does not limit God's role but magnifies it! It is only by His awesome power that we are able to remain in communion with ALL the members of His Body. He IS, indeed, the One Mediator between God and man. This role is specifically what allows us to intercede for one another and for those in heaven to intercede for us!